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Jane_the_Bane

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How about summing it up in your own words why he was not a viable alternative and then explain why the Western governments of the world are acceptable to you.

Okay:

Western governments do not tend to usurp absolute power by essentially dismissing all constitutional judges, having hand-picked ideologues draft a new constitution, and then beat up and torture the people who protest against this coup.

You may believe that it was all "just temporary", but I highly doubt it. Morsi was on his way to silencing any kind of political opposition or pluralism, turning Egypt into an Islamist theocracy instead of a pluralist democracy.
 
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wn123455

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Actually, I've spent quite a few posts on defending moderate muslims against the likes of wn12345 and his lopsided vantage point, debunking his insane conspiracy theories and calling him out as the hater he is, in spite of his protestations to the contrary.

The reason why you haven't noticed this, Muslimah, is possibly because you are NOT a moderate muslim, but instead embrace a stark tribalism that sorts the world into muslims ("one of us") and non-muslims ("one of them").

I won't deny that I am not a big fan of Islam and its ideological implications, especially with regards to sex and gender, nor will I deny that it is fundamentally incompatible with my political ideals.
But yeah, the military junta in Egypt IS perfectly rotten. No cultured cosmopolitans there. Too bad that the Muslim Brotherhood isn't exactly a viable alternative to that, either, eh?

How am I a hater? islamists are colonizing and occupying non-muslim lands like West Papua, Cyprus, etc...

Papua conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cyprus dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am just speaking out against the crimes of islamists. As for islamists influencing the media I have linked The Guardian as my source on Fox news being controlled by a Saudi muslim Prince.

Fox News was ordered to alter its coverage of the riots in France after a Saudi prince with shares in its parent company News Corporation complained to Rupert Murdoch.

Prince Alwaleed bin Talal bin Abdul aziz Al-Saud told a conference in Dubai he had telephoned Mr Murdoch after seeing a strapline on the news channel describing the disturbances as "Muslim riots".

"I picked up the phone and called Murdoch and said that I was speaking not as a shareholder, but as a viewer of Fox. I said that these are not Muslim riots, they are riots," Campaign Middle East magazine quoted the prince as saying.

"He investigated the matter and called Fox and within half an hour it was changed from 'Muslim riots' to 'civil riots'."

The prince said his intervention had been an example of how Muslim people can change the portrayal of their religion in the western media - although few Fox viewers will have his contacts.

It is not the first time he has admitted to trying to influence Mr Murdoch's coverage of sensitive issues.
Saudi prince changes Fox's Paris riots coverage | Media | MediaGuardian
 
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Western governments do not tend to usurp absolute power

Wait, the power that was given to the military before? Many cheered this move because they've had enough of the military having the power (and Morsi is the first civilian president they had).

by essentially dismissing all constitutional judges,
You mean the same judges from Mubarak's era? Why would he keep anyone from Mubarak's reign? I wish he had gotten rid of every single political leader who worked for Mubarak or his military dictatorship but, unfortunately, Morsi pardoned a lot of them.

having hand-picked ideologues draft a new constitution,
The constitution was approved by 65% of voters.

and then beat up and torture the people who protest against this coup.
Evidence?

You may believe that it was all "just temporary", but I highly doubt it. Morsi was on his way to silencing any kind of political opposition or pluralism, turning Egypt into an Islamist theocracy instead of a pluralist democracy.
He was turning Egypt into a country you didn't like but that doesn't mean that it wasn't suitable for the Egyptians. And it doesn't mean that democracy must only lead to the results you desire.

And there is no proof that he was on his way to silencing any kind of political opposition. If that was the case, he would have shut down all of the channels that were staunchly anti-Morsi. He didn't. He let the smear campaign continue from the moment he was elected until he was illegally removed. The media played a huge role in the military coup. What's hilarious is that the illegitimate military government is the one that shut down anti-coup channels. How exactly was Morsi not a viable alternative to this?


Anyway, Obama has assassinated American citizens without due process and allowed the government to take away the rights of American citizens through the Patriot Act & the NDAA. Does this mean that you don't consider this government a viable alternative to a military government like in Egypt? The UK extradited Talha Ahsan to the US while not doing the same for Gary McKinnon. Would it be valid for people to think that the British government is not a viable alternative to a military government?
 
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LoAmmi

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I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you calling me an extremist? Or are you just explaining what your definition of extremist and moderate is?

Just explaining what my definition would be. I know a friend who would call herself an "orthodox Muslim" to fit her beliefs. She followed her faith the same way an Orthodox Jew follows Judaism and was very strong in those beliefs, but didn't believe in things like terrorism and the like.
 
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smaneck

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I am just speaking out against the crimes of islamists.

And justifying atrocities committed against innocent Muslims. Therein lies the problem.

You are also indiscriminately labeling as Islamists nominal Muslims who are in fact secular nationalists.

All this adds up to one thing: bigotry.
 
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smaneck

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You mean the same judges from Mubarak's era? Why would he keep anyone from Mubarak's reign?

Because when you get elected president, all you get is the presidency. You have no right to the judiciary.

Anyway, Obama has assassinated American citizens without due process and allowed the government to take away the rights of American citizens through the Patriot Act & the NDAA.

The Patriot Act was not passed by Obama. As for killing American traitors while they are serving as enemy combatants, that has always been legal. It just almost never had to be done.
 
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AskTheFamily

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It is not a genocide, it is a civil war. Initially I was happy Assad is going to be toppled, then come the news a boy was beheaded for making a very light joke of Muhammad (not even in any ways insulting), and the news of the in fighting (or one sided abduction/killing) of Islamist rebels to FSA, then the news of more beheading, and then even the Islamist rebels are killing Islamist rebels.

At this point I doubt any new government can be better than Assad, and this genocide start to look like a genocide against the shia Muslims, as the Sunnis are starting to suicide bombing Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Right from the beginning, the rebels said they're next target would be hezbollah. They were very sectarian type and the west is willing to gamble with these people for the simple fact they oppose hezbollah. If they didn't, the west would not support them.
 
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Because when you get elected president, all you get is the presidency. You have no right to the judiciary.

Pretty sure that goes out the window when the military possessed the powers that were not supposed to be theirs. Morsi just transferred that power to himself (the first civilian president as opposed to all of the previous military dictators in the recent past) and removed it from the military. Furthermore, it goes out the window when there is no trust of anyone who served under Mubarak's regime.

The Patriot Act was not passed by Obama. As for killing American traitors while they are serving as enemy combatants, that has always been legal. It just almost never had to be done.
The Patriot Act was extended by Obama even though he used to criticize Bush and his administration over it. He also promised to put an end to illegal wire tapping. Oh, Obama, no you can't and won't.

Since we already addressed this, I'll just reiterate (and in many places, just paste) what I said before:

1.) Why all the defense of Obama's atrocities (even such things as drones) but not the same defense of what you perceive to be Morsi's encroachment?

2.) He is not the judge, jury, and executioner. But you're all too willing to give Obama that position because he was dealing with who you believe were enemy combatants.

3.) Anwar al Awlaki was not even charged. And why the heck was his son killed weeks later??

4.) "the central reason the Obama Administration’s act was lawless is that in all the scenarios where the intentional killing of a U.S. citizen is permitted, there is a legal principle at work: the principle of immediacy."

In assassinating Anwar al-Awlaki, Obama left the Constitution behind - The Daily Beast

5.) "The most extremist power any political leader can assert is the power to target his own citizens for execution without any charges or due process, far from any battlefield. The Obama administration has not only asserted exactly that power in theory, but has exercised it in practice...."

--

"Not only is the entire process carried out solely within the Executive branch - with no checks or oversight of any kind - but there is zero transparency and zero accountability."


Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | theguardian.com

6.) They also killed Anwar al-Awlaki's 16-year-old son. How was he an enemy combatant? And before you try to defend the indefensible, even someone from Obama's administration (his senior adviser on counterterrorism and homeland security) suspected that Anwar al-Awlaki's son was killed intentionally.

...John Brennan, at the time President Obama’s senior adviser on counterterrorism and homeland security, “suspected that the kid had been killed intentionally and ordered a review. I don’t know what happened with the review.”

In other words, it sounds like some in the Administration suspect that someone within the targeting chain of command may have invented the Ibrahim al-Banna presence as a way to get at Awlaki’s son."

What “Not Specifically Targeted” Means for Abdulrahman al-Awlaki | emptywheel

7.) You can defend Obama till the cows come home, but it doesn't change the fact that you're willing to give Obama more power than Morsi but you're not willing to say that the former is a dictatorship (though you say the latter was).


And with that, I don't have anything more to say about this with you since you appear to be very pro-Obama regardless of what he does.

Right from the beginning, the rebels said they're next target would be hezbollah. They were very sectarian type and the west is willing to gamble with these people for the simple fact they oppose hezbollah. If they didn't, the west would not support them.

Speaking of very sectarian types, do you mean the same Shi'aa Hezbollah that ganged up with the Syrian Shi'aa Alawi/Nusayri government against the Sunni rebels?
 
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smaneck

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Right from the beginning, the rebels said they're next target would be hezbollah. They were very sectarian type and the west is willing to gamble with these people for the simple fact they oppose hezbollah. If they didn't, the west would not support them.

The Hezbollah in Syria are outsiders from Lebanon, much like the al-Qaeda groups there.
 
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wn123455

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Pretty sure that goes out the window when the military possessed the powers that were not supposed to be theirs. Morsi just transferred that power to himself (the first civilian president as opposed to all of the previous military dictators in the recent past) and removed it from the military. Furthermore, it goes out the window when there is no trust of anyone who served under Mubarak's regime.

The Patriot Act was extended by Obama even though he used to criticize Bush and his administration over it. He also promised to put an end to illegal wire tapping. Oh, Obama, no you can't and won't.

Since we already addressed this, I'll just reiterate (and in many places, just paste) what I said before:

1.) Why all the defense of Obama's atrocities (even such things as drones) but not the same defense of what you perceive to be Morsi's encroachment?

2.) He is not the judge, jury, and executioner. But you're all too willing to give Obama that position because he was dealing with who you believe were enemy combatants.

3.) Anwar al Awlaki was not even charged. And why the heck was his son killed weeks later??

4.) "the central reason the Obama Administration’s act was lawless is that in all the scenarios where the intentional killing of a U.S. citizen is permitted, there is a legal principle at work: the principle of immediacy."

In assassinating Anwar al-Awlaki, Obama left the Constitution behind - The Daily Beast

5.) "The most extremist power any political leader can assert is the power to target his own citizens for execution without any charges or due process, far from any battlefield. The Obama administration has not only asserted exactly that power in theory, but has exercised it in practice...."

--

"Not only is the entire process carried out solely within the Executive branch - with no checks or oversight of any kind - but there is zero transparency and zero accountability."


Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | theguardian.com

6.) They also killed Anwar al-Awlaki's 16-year-old son. How was he an enemy combatant? And before you try to defend the indefensible, even someone from Obama's administration (his senior adviser on counterterrorism and homeland security) suspected that Anwar al-Awlaki's son was killed intentionally.

...John Brennan, at the time President Obama’s senior adviser on counterterrorism and homeland security, “suspected that the kid had been killed intentionally and ordered a review. I don’t know what happened with the review.”

In other words, it sounds like some in the Administration suspect that someone within the targeting chain of command may have invented the Ibrahim al-Banna presence as a way to get at Awlaki’s son."

What “Not Specifically Targeted” Means for Abdulrahman al-Awlaki | emptywheel

7.) You can defend Obama till the cows come home, but it doesn't change the fact that you're willing to give Obama more power than Morsi but you're not willing to say that the former is a dictatorship (though you say the latter was).


And with that, I don't have anything more to say about this with you since you appear to be very pro-Obama regardless of what he does.



Speaking of very sectarian types, do you mean the same Shi'aa Hezbollah that ganged up with the Syrian Shi'aa Alawi/Nusayri government against the Sunni rebels?

You alright with muslims occupying and colonizing non-muslim lands. But you seem alright with criticizing non-muslim governments. Why don't you criticize muslim governments for occupying and colonizing non-muslim lands?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7767980-30/#post65435148
 
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wn123455

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And justifying atrocities committed against innocent Muslims. Therein lies the problem.

You are also indiscriminately labeling as Islamists nominal Muslims who are in fact secular nationalists.

All this adds up to one thing: bigotry.

Acts of resistance are not atrocities.
 
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dcalling

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Right from the beginning, the rebels said they're next target would be hezbollah. They were very sectarian type and the west is willing to gamble with these people for the simple fact they oppose hezbollah. If they didn't, the west would not support them.

That was interesting, I missed that part. Initially all I heard is Assad use air forces to bomb the protestors, and I told myself "you got to be kidding". And now I think he is either over reacting too much or he know something I don't.

Anyway, when I read on Yahoo, some muslim reader said there is an prophecy that 2 muslim forces will fight in Syria that will bring the end of the world, and that is why so many are fighting there, both side try to be on the side of the good muslims that joins on the side of Muhammad. It will be very interesting if it can be verified.
 
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AskTheFamily

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That was interesting, I missed that part. Initially all I heard is Assad use air forces to bomb the protestors, and I told myself "you got to be kidding". And now I think he is either over reacting too much or he know something I don't.

Assad said he would put elections in 2 years and was willing to negotiate for a settlement for now but the rebels said they would not settle for anything but to be given power. The people in Syria don't want the rebels in power, most do want a democracy but are in favor of Bashar Al-Assad as well. I think to be honest, he would of won the election because he was that popular. I'm not sure about his popularity now. But the rebels want to take over the country without even being elected. They want power to be given to them when they are extremist that not only would destroy the country but the people don't want them in power.
 
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smaneck

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Assad said he would put elections in 2 years and was willing to negotiate for a settlement for now but the rebels said they would not settle for anything but to be given power.

Two years? Seriously? That gives him time to massacre the opposition. If he is serious about election he should hold them in sixty days!

The people in Syria don't want the rebels in power, most do want a democracy but are in favor of Bashar Al-Assad as well.

And your evidence that majority support Assad is what? I think the only solid support behind him are the Alawites, who make up 16% of the population and Christians who make up 10%. The other 74% are Sunnis who have no reason to support him whatsoever.

But if what you are saying is true, he has nothing to lose by early elections.
 
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Assad said he would put elections in 2 years and was willing to negotiate for a settlement for now but the rebels said they would not settle for anything but to be given power.

A person who has killed ~200,000 of his "own" people (though I wouldn't call Sunnis, the ones he's targeting, as his people) for no just reason does not deserve to have a say in anything anymore. No Syrian should settle for anything but his removal. His family came in by force and it looks like they'll be made to leave by force.

The people in Syria don't want the rebels in power, most do want a democracy but are in favor of Bashar Al-Assad as well. I think to be honest, he would of won the election because he was that popular. I'm not sure about his popularity now. But the rebels want to take over the country without even being elected. They want power to be given to them when they are extremist that not only would destroy the country but the people don't want them in power.
Bashar's father took over the country without even being elected and killed tens of thousands of people in Hama in order to stop an uprising against him in 1982. Like father, like son. The vast majority of the people in Syria are not in favor of the Assad family.
 
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528 sentenced to death by Egyptian court. The first hearing - on Saturday - was quickly adjourned. At Monday's second session, the mass death sentences were announced.

BBC News - Egypt court sentences 528 Morsi supporters to death

683 more "alleged Morsi supporters" sentenced to death. Of the 528 that were sentenced last time, 37 are still condemned to death sentences and the rest to 25 years in prison.

Outside the courtroom on Monday, when news of the sentences broke, families of the accused began to scream and several women fainted, falling to the ground.

---
Lawyer Mohamed Abdel Waheb, who represents 25 of the defendants, said the verdict was handed down in a court session lasting less than five minutes. Previously, he said, the single session in the trial lasted just four hours, during which the judge refused to listen to any arguments from the defence.

---
"The case killed the credibility of the Egyptian judicial system," said Elmessiry of Amnesty International.

Egyptian court sentences 683 people to death - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
 
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The UK extradited Talha Ahsan to the US while not doing the same for Gary McKinnon.

I'm going to expound on this since it fits in with the theme of this thread.

Gary McKinnon hacked the US military's computers. He admitted this. He has Aspergers and that was the reason he was not extradited. Theresa May, any insult I use for her will be far too kind, conveniently waited until a few weeks after the Muslims were extradited to halt the extradition of Gary McKinnon.

Talha Ahsan is accused of "terrorism" and also has Aspergers. He was held in a UK prison, maximum security at that, without charge or trial for 6 years. Even though the UK didn't have sufficient evidence of any wrongdoing, they extradited him to the US (even if he did what he's being accused of, it's something US security was not directly harmed by unlike by Gary McKinnon's activities).

Alex MacDonald: Gary McKinnon Has Asperger's Syndrome; So Does Talha Ahsan

So what's the difference? Talha Ahsan is Muslim (and it probably doesn't help that he's not white).
 
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smaneck

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So what's the difference? Talha Ahsan is Muslim (and it probably doesn't help that he's not white).

Uh, Talha Ahsan was also associated with terrorist groups whereas this other guy appears to be obsessed with UFOs.

What took down the twin towers was not a UFO.
 
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Uh, Talha Ahsan was also associated with terrorist groups whereas this other guy appears to be obsessed with UFOs.

What took down the twin towers was not a UFO.

1.) Even if Talha Ahsan was associated with terrorist groups, which I don't believe he was, then he should have been tried in the UK. But not only was he not tried, he was held without charge for 6 long years. Surely if the UK had enough evidence of anything that could stick, they would've at least tried him.

Talha Ahsan, if he did what he is accused of doing, did not harm the US. Gary McKinnon did. So why was Talha Ahsan extradited but not Gary McKinnon (and note, Gary McKinnon's family was also against the extradition of Talha Ahsan and the others)?

2.) Talha Ahsan maintained his innocence throughout that entire time. He only just agreed to a plea bargain deal in the US presumably because of the drastically shorter sentence than what he could've faced (and, as we saw through the Tarek Mehanna case, just translating material coupled with the testimony of a person who was getting a deal from the government can lead to 17 years in prison for Muslims who refuse to plead guilty). Gary McKinnon admitted to hacking the computers.

3.) Ex post facto laws are not allowed in the US (let alone applying ex post facto laws on different countries). What they accuse Talha Ahsan of doing was perfectly legal in Britain at the time. So how is he in jail, in a different country, no less, for something that was legal? Just like it doesn't make sense to say, "Eating chocolate is now illegal. Because you ate chocolate 10 years ago, you're going to be fined and imprisoned for it now," it also does not make sense to imprison Talha Ahsan or Babar Ahmad for something that was not illegal.

4.) The groups they're accused of funding did not directly harm the UK or the US. And the US helped the Taliban against the Soviets....so will they be arresting and imprisoning every one of those people in the US government who was part of that administration?
 
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