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"...And Your Lord is Never Forgetful..." II

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ContraMundum

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And yet you insist on depicting this as the real Islam.

Not once have I ever said that. I have stated that people on all sides claim to be the real Islam. My question was simply: who do I believe?

Christianity was a much badder boy prior to this.

If you believe that, fine. I don't. I think they're all about the same once you get politics involved.
 
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smaneck

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Not once have I ever said that. I have stated that people on all sides claim to be the real Islam. My question was simply: who do I believe?

Well, you just said you recognized that the Sunni Islamists grew out of revivalist movement which didn't exist prior to the 18th century and were considered heretical at the time. So why would you assume they represent historic Islam?

If you believe that, fine. I don't. I think they're all about the same once you get politics involved.

LOL. And when has politics not been involved?
 
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ContraMundum

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LOL. And when has politics not been involved?

Well, that's a good question. To my knowledge, the best of all religions happens when politics is not involved. I mean worldly, secular politics and its ambitions of grabbing land, power, influence and wealth. The unspiritual. For example, in Christianity 18thC revivalism (early Methodists, then later Salvation Army etc) or communal movements like the Mennonites seem to bring out the best of the faith.

I don't know enough about the relationship between Islam and politics to give an example of such a thing in Islam. That's a question too. Our resident poster ILBAM is intensely politicized, and seems to believe that Islam must by necessity be so as well.

My understanding of my NT based faith is that the further religion gets from worldly ambitions such as wealth, power, possessions, war and secularism the closer it is to the message of the NT. I don't want to speak for Muslims but I'm getting the impression that there is a definite political and military arm of that religion. I'm open to hearing from them about it.
 
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smaneck

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My understanding of my NT based faith is that the further religion gets from worldly ambitions such as wealth, power, possessions, war and secularism the closer it is to the message of the NT. I don't want to speak for Muslims but I'm getting the impression that there is a definite political and military arm of that religion. I'm open to hearing from them about it.

I think the key difference is this. Christians place their primary emphasis on saving individuals from a world that is going to hell, whereas Muslims are supposed to transform the world itself through action in the world. That does mean that their religion is going to have a political dimension because in order to transform the world you have to transform the basis of power in the world, and those who hold power aren't going to give it up voluntarily. So it has led to jihad at times.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Present day Christian fundamentalism didn't exist prior to the 1800s, and yet they form the American Christian mainstream today. If I were to judge Christianity solely by their historical continuity, I'd have to conclude that there are no True Christians whatsoever, for even the most traditional churches have changed considerably over the course of millennia, and many beliefs held by contemporary Catholic laypersons or Orthodox Christians were once condemned as heretical by some official council.

I find it highly dubious to dismiss unpleasant ideologies as "No True X", even if the temptation is there. (I.e., "Was Stalin a "true Communist" if his methodology and ideology did not bear too much - if any - resemblance to what Marx and Engels proposed and postulated?")
 
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CO_9UsXUYAA33sT.jpg

Pic source here and here

Yasir Qadhi's facebook:

"Welcome to America!

Where a bright, intelligent, 14 year old kid who can design clocks with a home-made circuit board and wires is detained and questioned for being a potential terrorist.

He was suspended from school for four days, because police weren't satisfied as to why he would build a clock.

Of course, his real crime was that his name is 'Ahmed Muhammad'.


14-year-old Muslim Schoolboy Ahmed Mohamed arrested after taking homemade clock to school"


Video link
 
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....cont'd

From Wajahat Ali's facebook:

"I'm 34 years old and I can barely tie my shoe laces. If I created my own radio, repaired my own go-cart and made a homemade clock in 20 minutes, my wife would give me a hall pass for two weeks, my parents would feel fulfilled they finally raised a brown son who could actually create something "useful," and my South Asian friends would sell all their clocks on E-Bay and cajole me into making them free ones for the rest of my life.

Well, that's what 14-year-old Ahmed Mohamed of Dallas did for a school project and what was his reward?

In a sane world, he would be heralded as the Texan Jimmy Neutron, The Sudanese Tony Stark, The Next Edison or Muslim Tesla. Instead, he was arrested on suspicion of making a hoax bomb and suspended.

Teenager brings in homemade clock = bright future in robotics. Muslim kid does the same = he has created Ultron.

The casualties of fear, ignorance and bigotry are always common sense and decency. This would make a perfect Monty Python or Daily Show sketch, but the tragedy is all too real, sad and infuriating.

‪#‎IStandWithAhmed‬ because when my 1-year-old Muslim American boy grows up and builds a bad[snipped] clock, I want him celebrated, not scapegoated.

I wish I knew Ahmed. I'd give him a hug, a fist bump & say keep on dreaming & keep on building. Then I'd offer to buy his homemade clock. In fact, they should replace the clock in the principal's office with the one he made - perfect karma and a great reminder that haters always end up in the dustbins of history."


Excerpts from an article:

"'We have no information that he claimed it was a bomb,' police spokesman James McLellan told the Dallas Morning News. 'He kept maintaining it was a clock, but there was no broader explanation.'"

"Nerds and supporters of Mohamed from across the country have taken to Twitter to offer their support — and their outrage at what many are calling blatant racism in the way the school and law enforcement handled the situation. Their campaign has come in the form of a hashtag: #IStandWithAhmed."


#IStandWithAhmed Exposes the Islamophobic Double Standard of 14-Year-Old Muslim's Arrest

Another one:

"They led Ahmed into a room where four other police officers waited. He said an officer he’d never seen before leaned back in his chair and remarked: 'Yup. That’s who I thought it was.'

Ahmed felt suddenly conscious of his brown skin and his name — one of the most common in the Muslim religion. But the police kept him busy with questions."


Live video: Irving police, school officials discuss Ahmed Mohamed's arrest

 
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Did you see the kid was invited to the White House?

I did!

He's being encouraged by the President of the US, by Hillary, Bobak Ferdowsi (who also said he couldn't imagine working at NASA today if he had been treated similarly), Montel Williams, Mark Zuckerberg, Dallas hackers, makers (here too), engineers, and countless others.

Facebook, Google roll out welcome mat to Ahmed Mohamed

Here's an MIT representative/theoretical astrophysicist (watch to about 1 minute) also welcoming him to visit MIT and perhaps Harvard:




Responses like these make me feel a bit better.
 
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"British Muslims have detailed the innocent, everyday acts that have led to individuals being suspected as radicals, from holding open doors to writing class projects about foreign policy."

Here are specific examples given:

"A schoolchild “mentioned the history of the Caliphate” in a piece of homework about British foreign policy and was referred to social services for signs of radicalisation."

"A lecturer told a senior team two students expressed “concerning behaviour” after they let a female student move past them and lowered their heads."

"A police officer deemed that a schoolchild had “terrorist-like” views after he was caught carrying “Free Palestine” badges."

"A teenager was deemed to require “deradicalisation” after they attended a protest against an Israeli diplomat."

"A teacher decided to call in the parents of a student after they used the Arabic term for “praise be to God”."

"Bsis claimed that the parents of a 2-year-old were called in after she told teachers she had a dream about fireworks."

"...the example of a 3-year-old child who had been placed on a list of potential extremists."


This Is How Easy It Is to Be Suspected of Being a Radical Muslim If You're a Muslim
 
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ContraMundum

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Officials in Irving however are still being jerks. The mayor refused to apologize. The principle would not remove his suspension nor did the police apologize for arresting him. They seem interested only in self-justification.

I wouldn't hold my breath either.
 
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smaneck

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dcalling

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"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt 10:28). Suffering in this world is only temporary, God's judgement is eternal. As people who believe in God we should trust in God.

I keep hearing from Muslims that one requirement of been Muslim is you must believe in God's prophets, and yet most will claim the Torah/Gospel are corrupted/lost, even against the verses of Quran. (Surah 5:47, 10:94 and many others). I pray that all of us will eventually believe in the true teachings of Torah/Gospel and turn back to God, and God will heal us.
 
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withwonderingawe

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I guess I have a problem with being sympathetic with a bunch of Muslims in Iran screaming death to America today, I suppose they are being honest compared to some others;

found this at wik
"
The term taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة‎ taqiyyah/taqīyah) is derived from the Arabic triliteral root wāw-qāf-yā, denoting "fear", or "prudence, guarding against (a danger)". Term taqwa "piety" (lit. "fear [of God]") is from the same root. The term is derived from the Quranic reference to religious dissimulation in Sura 3:28:

"Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully (illā an tattaqū minhum tuqāt)."
The two words tattaqū ("you fear") and tuqāt "in fear" are derived from this root, and the abstract noun taqiyyah refers to the general principle connected with the situation described here, first recorded in a Qur'anic gloss by Al-Bukhari (9th century).
Regarding 3:28, Ibn Kathir writes, "meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly." He quotes Muhammad's companion, Abu Ad-Darda', who said "we smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them," and Al-Hasan who said "the Tuqyah is acceptable till the Day of Resurrection."

Makes it really hard to trust a Muslim

Jesus said;
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt lovethy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.."
 
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smaneck

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I guess I have a problem with being sympathetic with a bunch of Muslims in Iran screaming death to America today, I suppose they are being honest compared to some others;

I see. So because Muslims in Iran are supposedly screaming 'death to America' therefore we should have no sympathy towards the genocide being committed against Muslims in Burma? That's makes about as much sense as saying that because of the way Christians treat Mormons here we should have no sympathy when ISIS slaughters Christians in Libya.

The term is derived from the Quranic reference to religious dissimulation in Sura 3:28:

There is no reference to religious dissimulation in Sura 3:28. The only reference to religious dissimulation in the Qur'an is found in 16:106:

"Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom."

"Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully (illā an tattaqū minhum tuqāt)."

First off the term wali should not be translated as "friend." What Muslims are being warned against is forming patron/client relationships and alliances with non-Muslims. We are not talking about personal friendships.

The two words tattaqū ("you fear") and tuqāt "in fear" are derived from this root, and the abstract noun taqiyyah refers to the general principle connected with the situation

That makes about as much sense as saying that because inspire and perspire are derived from the same root, they mean the same thing.

Regarding 3:28, Ibn Kathir

So your evidence is 9th and 14th century Muslim commentators? Do you have any idea what I could make Christianity look like if I relied on medieval sources?

Makes it really hard to trust a Muslim

I don't know who wrote that wiki article, I'm guessing that the parts you posting is someone different than who wrote the first part of that article which makes it explicit that this is a Shi'ite doctrine and used in relationship to Sunni Muslims not in relationship to non-Muslims.
Taqiyyih refers to the practice concealing one's belief in order to avoid persecution. Such behavior is condoned, and even required of Shi'ites who frequently lived among a hostile Sunni majority. I can't think of a single case where it was used to justify deceiving non-Muslims.
During the medieval period of Islamic history taqiyyih came to be practiced by philosophers and mystics as well as Shi'ites in order to protect themselves against persecution on the part of the more bigoted ulama (Islamic clergymen.) Such an approach was encouraged by even the great Sunni theologian al-Ghazali, who argued for what the renowned historian of Islam, Marshall Hodgson, has described as a "pattern of gradation and concealment of knowledge."Ordinary believers were not to be given access to certain types of religious knowledge lest they misunderstand it and stumble as a result. Likewise Avicenna, the greatest of Islamic Aristotileans, would in his capacity as a qadi, or Islamic judge, condemn those who too freely popularized the teachings of Aristotle. Sufis likewise critized al-Hallaj, the famous mystic who was crucified for asserting "I am the truth," not because the sentiment was heretical in itself but because al-Hallaj was revealing secrets' which might incline the common people towards blasphemy. Knowledge in the Islamic world came to be divided into exoteric and esoteric categories. The exoteric knowledge was accessible to all Muslims and tended to be conceived in unambiguous black and white terms. Esoteric knowledge required initiation and works containing such knowledge tended to be worded in such a way as to be unintelligible to those not already familiar with its mysteries. As Marshall Hodgson points out: When all dissenting statements were cast in esoteric form, explicitly acknowledging the correctness of the received exoteric doctrines . . . it became easy to find excuses for doubt about a dissenter. No one denied the official positions; the question was simply whether what else a person said did in fact contradict those positions. But if writing was done with sufficient obscurity, guilt could never be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

While this approach allowed for much more intellectual diversity to exist within the Islamic World than was possible in Christendom at the time, there was a price to be paid for dissimulation. The Muslim intelligentsia, in making themselves incomprehensible to the common people, sacrificed any hope of changing the direction of the community as a whole.

There are all kinds of issues associated with taqiyya but it has nothing to do with whether or not we should love our enemies or whether a Muslims thinks it is okay to lie to you simply because you're not a Muslim.

I hope you realize you have done the same thing to Muslims as Evangelicals have done to Mormons on this forum.
 
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withwonderingawe

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I see. So because Muslims in Iran are supposedly screaming 'death to America' therefore we should have no sympathy towards the genocide being committed against Muslims in Burma? That's makes about as much sense as saying that because of the way Christians treat Mormons here we should have no sympathy when ISIS slaughters Christians in Libya.



There is no reference to religious dissimulation in Sura 3:28. The only reference to religious dissimulation in the Qur'an is found in 16:106:

"Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom."



First off the term wali should not be translated as "friend." What Muslims are being warned against is forming patron/client relationships and alliances with non-Muslims. We are not talking about personal friendships.



That makes about as much sense as saying that because inspire and perspire are derived from the same root, they mean the same thing.



So your evidence is 9th and 14th century Muslim commentators? Do you have any idea what I could make Christianity look like if I relied on medieval sources?



I don't know who wrote that wiki article, I'm guessing that the parts you posting is someone different than who wrote the first part of that article which makes it explicit that this is a Shi'ite doctrine and used in relationship to Sunni Muslims not in relationship to non-Muslims.
Taqiyyih refers to the practice concealing one's belief in order to avoid persecution. Such behavior is condoned, and even required of Shi'ites who frequently lived among a hostile Sunni majority. I can't think of a single case where it was used to justify deceiving non-Muslims.
During the medieval period of Islamic history taqiyyih came to be practiced by philosophers and mystics as well as Shi'ites in order to protect themselves against persecution on the part of the more bigoted ulama (Islamic clergymen.) Such an approach was encouraged by even the great Sunni theologian al-Ghazali, who argued for what the renowned historian of Islam, Marshall Hodgson, has described as a "pattern of gradation and concealment of knowledge."Ordinary believers were not to be given access to certain types of religious knowledge lest they misunderstand it and stumble as a result. Likewise Avicenna, the greatest of Islamic Aristotileans, would in his capacity as a qadi, or Islamic judge, condemn those who too freely popularized the teachings of Aristotle. Sufis likewise critized al-Hallaj, the famous mystic who was crucified for asserting "I am the truth," not because the sentiment was heretical in itself but because al-Hallaj was revealing secrets' which might incline the common people towards blasphemy. Knowledge in the Islamic world came to be divided into exoteric and esoteric categories. The exoteric knowledge was accessible to all Muslims and tended to be conceived in unambiguous black and white terms. Esoteric knowledge required initiation and works containing such knowledge tended to be worded in such a way as to be unintelligible to those not already familiar with its mysteries. As Marshall Hodgson points out: When all dissenting statements were cast in esoteric form, explicitly acknowledging the correctness of the received exoteric doctrines . . . it became easy to find excuses for doubt about a dissenter. No one denied the official positions; the question was simply whether what else a person said did in fact contradict those positions. But if writing was done with sufficient obscurity, guilt could never be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

While this approach allowed for much more intellectual diversity to exist within the Islamic World than was possible in Christendom at the time, there was a price to be paid for dissimulation. The Muslim intelligentsia, in making themselves incomprehensible to the common people, sacrificed any hope of changing the direction of the community as a whole.

There are all kinds of issues associated with taqiyya but it has nothing to do with whether or not we should love our enemies or whether a Muslims thinks it is okay to lie to you simply because you're not a Muslim.

I hope you realize you have done the same thing to Muslims as Evangelicals have done to Mormons on this forum.

Thank you for your response, I was really trying to provoke Love a little and was responding to his 2nd posting.

“The recent shooting in Chattanooga once again displays the double standards with which Muslims are treated (see here, here, here, and here) . It didn't take very long at all for authorities or the media to consider (or treat) this an act of terrorism…”

People in America are going to look at all violence perpetrated by a known Muslim as having an element of terrorism.

I would say that is what happened in Missouri, a few of the old settlers (300 or so) did not like the Mormons moving in, they drank heavily and preformed some acts of violence. A few Mormons (30 or so) retaliated with their own violence. Each side began treating the whole as guilty rather than the individuals.

What is different here is those that committed the acts were excommunicated, thrown out of the Church. With Islam there are whole faction which make violence part of their religion and duty.

It’s hard for us Americans to tell the differences between the peaceful Muslims and the violent ones. The Tsarnaev brothers looked normal to everyone, no one had any idea they were seething with hate. All of your reassurance that Muslims don't lie isn't going to change it.

So that leaves me and all Americans questioning all Muslims. Until Muslims themselves get their religion in order it’s going to be than way.
 
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smaneck

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Thank you for your response, I was really trying to provoke Love a little and was responding to his 2nd posting.

“The recent shooting in Chattanooga once again displays the double standards with which Muslims are treated (see here, here, here, and here) . It didn't take very long at all for authorities or the media to consider (or treat) this an act of terrorism…”

Yow, you are answering a post that is four months old. Love is female, btw. She probably should have started a brand new thread, given that the last post was two months ago.

People in America are going to look at all violence perpetrated by a known Muslim as having an element of terrorism.

Or even a boy just making a clock.

I would say that is what happened in Missouri, a few of the old settlers (300 or so) did not like the Mormons moving in, they drank heavily and preformed some acts of violence. A few Mormons (30 or so) retaliated with their own violence. Each side began treating the whole as guilty rather than the individuals.

I'm not sure what Missouri has to do with any of this.

What is different here is those that committed the acts were excommunicated, thrown out of the Church. With Islam there are whole faction which make violence part of their religion and duty.

Here is the difference. Islam has no church. By that i mean there is no single authority or hierarchy (except in Shi'ism) to decide what is Islamic and what is not.

It’s hard for us Americans to tell the differences between the peaceful Muslims and the violent ones. The Tsarnaev brothers looked normal to everyone, no one had any idea they were seething with hate. All of your reassurance that Muslims don't lie isn't going to change it.

All I'm saying is that Taqiyya has nothing to do with this.

So that leaves me and all Americans questioning all Muslims. Until Muslims themselves get their religion in order it’s going to be than way.

We are talking about a religion with more than a billion people with nearly as much diversity as Christianity. How do you expect them to get their 'religion in order', whatever that means? The fact they can't do the impossible does not excuse prejudice.
 
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