And the best country to live in is ...

[wpiman2]

On the contrary. The Dep. of Education plays down the illiteracy rates in order to justify their existence & funding. The actual rates are even worse.

Afraid your dead wrong; I know people that work there and their mandate is to find and fund studies highlighting the need for more federal intervention into education. Self preservation.

You probably know as much about the US Department of Education as I know about the Sweedish and Finnish national education system; which is zero.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Afraid your dead wrong;

That I sure am. On purpose. I fashioned my pseudo-argument to be as silly as your original argument.

But back to your previous post.

A better and less partial view is in the CIA fact book. 99% literacy rate for the US; 100% for Norway.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2103.html

100% vs. 99%.

Which was exactly my initial argument, straight from the very same CIA World Factbook, here:

Norway knows no illiteracy, whereas 1% of the US populace cannot read and write.

Taking your argument, obviously, Norway does things differently. Not only does Norway make sure to teach their native populace these basic skills, they also teach their immigrant populace to read and write, something the US apparently fails to do on both accounts.

Hence, Norway scores higher in the Human Development Index; Education than the United States of America.

Fellow poster SpritualAntiseptic, however, was trying very hard to argue against this 100% vs. 99% difference:

I work with the people of some of the most rural, poor parts of the United States. I have volunteered with tutoring adults... I can tell you that the literacy rate is >99%.

Hence, Norway scores higher in the Human Development Index; Education than the United States of America.

I wish you would actually read up on the index instead of just making claims you'd like to be true. That is not where the US falls beyond Norway.

 

[wpiman2]

That I sure am. On purpose. I fashioned my pseudo-argument to be as silly as your original argument.

But back to your previous post.



100% vs. 99%.

Which was exactly my initial argument, straight from the very same CIA World Factbook, here:





Fellow poster SpritualAntiseptic, however, was trying very hard to argue against this 100% vs. 99% difference:

I don't think that anyone would disagree that the educational system for the Nordic countries is better for the overall population that in the US. The US though has the best universities in the world; hands down.


It is somewhat wasteful however, to have spent resources educating people who are going to drive trucks for a living and aspire to nothing more.

 

[Kalevalatar]

I don't think that anyone would disagree that the educational system for the Nordic countries is better for the overall population that in the US. The US though has the best universities in the world; hands down.

Absolutely. The US and UK. And you know what? Just so happens the brand new rankings are just in, fresh from the press :

Times Higher Education-QS World University Rankings 2009

Top 200 world universities


It was kind of boohoo news here in Finland that the only Finnish university on that list, the Helsinki University, went down from 91 to 108.

I mean, seriously. We are 5 million people. We have but a handful of Universities between us. Helsinki University made it to that top 200 list, not that it even matters; Helsinki would still be the top destination for the 5 million or so Finnish speakers, what with the almost non-existent worldwide competition and all...

 

[Tenka]

Yeah, but Helsinki?? Better than Sydney?!? Please. That has to be a mistake. Seriously. Helsinki is bland, windy, and boooooring-to-tears.

And I think Sydney is filthy, has shocking house prices and awful public transport. Everywhere I've been in Japan was better than Sydney.

Absolutely. The US and UK. And you know what? Just so happens the brand new rankings are just in, fresh from the press :

wow, Australia got 8 in the top 100, that's pretty good. I think we only have something like 40 Universities.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Quite right. The point remains the same: zero (0).

Actually, the point remains the same, the GDP for Norway is distorted by a factor of 1:1.5 in terms of CPI with the US.

I'm referring to the U.S. Education Department study, with a national sample representative of 222,400,000 American adults, of whom​

a whopping twenty-three percent (23&#37 in the illiterate category are high school graduates, while another whopping fourteen percent (14%), quote, "completed at least some education beyond high school," and of whom 52% spoke "English only".



Anecdotal. The U.S. Education Department study conclusions say something else entirely. I'll take an official Department of Education study over your word here.

I know a lot more Nordics than I know North Americans, yet I have never in my 40+ years met an illiterate adult Nordic person. I do however personally know two North Americans who can basically scribble no more than their own name. Both of them went to school but somehow managed to surf the system without learning these basic skills. Coming from the privileged Nordic countries, I was shocked to learn that rich first world countries did and could have illiterate citizens. We tend to take the ability to read and write granted.

The study does not say that 87% are illiterate. It is talking about very particular literacy skills. I have never met anyone that was illiterate... and I have seen very, very poor and very, very rural.

The US does have a good deal of people that don't have good literacy skills. However, if you are going to say that Norway has a 100% literacy rate based, based on the same system, the US has >99%.

That indicates a major faillure for the US education systems.

I think you should work in the US education system for a while, you'll find out that the failure is with the culture and the parents, not the teachers. (and I say this as one that does NOT think highly of our teachers)

I wish you would take your own advice and familiarize yourself with the OP report.

I am wondering if you are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. You just disproved your own claims. First you said that the US has a ~86% literacy rate and then made the baseless claim that this lag was the cause of it's low ranking.
1) The US couldn't be at #13 in literacy with an 86% literacy rate.
2) The ranking the US received can't have anything to do with a 'lag' in education/literacy when its overall ranking is almost the same as the one it has in literacy.

Norway, however, does offer the best quality life to all Norwegians, not just for the priveleged upper crust.

As does the United States.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

On the contrary. The Dep. of Education plays down the illiteracy rates in order to justify their existence & funding. The actual rates are even worse.

You are just pulling down claims from the air.

Government entities always stress problems that may or may not exist in order to gain funding.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

For unskilled labour - about 75% of the workforce - wages have stagnated or declined. There are several good studies on this.

That is simply not true, I just posted the minimum wage, which is the ultimate form of 'unskilled labor'. Changes in minimum wage affect wages and salaries in the general work force. The minimum wage has consistantly outpaced the inflation rate and the consumer price index.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Sorry, most of the world doesn't "know", much less believe that the US is the best place to live.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/2001-2005_imm_rate_US.PNG

Must be why the US gets 1 to 1.5 million immigrants a year.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

What I can't figure out is why Canadians are coming to the US in the numbers they do. For every American that goes to Canada, three of them come to the US. Yet, they are #4... despite our population being much higher.

While the UN makes up an index based on subjective ratings... people are voting with their feet (so to speak)...

 

[Maren]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/2001-2005_imm_rate_US.PNG

Must be why the US gets 1 to 1.5 million immigrants a year.

I didn't say it wasn't better than the countries around it, I said that I doubt you can support that most in the world think it is the best place to live. Notice that the greatest "sending countries" are closest to the US and so they pick the US as the closest that is good, not that it is necessarily the best -- so they come to the US due to geography rather than thinking the US is the best.

 

[exotic walrus]

That is simply not true, I just posted the minimum wage, which is the ultimate form of 'unskilled labor'. Changes in minimum wage affect wages and salaries in the general work force. The minimum wage has consistantly outpaced the inflation rate and the consumer price index.

This isn't even up for debate in an economics course. Profits have soared while wages have stagnated or declined - it is approaching a four decade trend now.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Profits have soared while wages have stagnated or declined

I just showed that wages have increased. There is no way you can say wages are stagnant (and certainly not in decline) when the minimum wage has continued to increase, above the rate of inflation and CPI.

The minimum wage in 1989 was $3.35.

According to the US Department of Labor, $3.35 in 1989 is worth $5.83 today. In 1999, it was $5.15 ($6.67 today)

That means the minimum wage in 2009 dollars, has gone from $5.83 in 1989 to $6.67 in 1999 to $7.25 in 2009.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Actually, the point remains the same, the GDP for Norway is distorted by a factor of 1:1.5 in terms of CPI with the US.

Look, it is not the end of the world. After all, it is not like the United States of America ranked last in this year's Human Development Index or something. 13th place is still a perfectly decent ranking.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Look, it is not the end of the world. After all, it is not like the United States of America ranked last in this year's Human Development Index or something. 13th place is still a perfectly decent ranking.

My posts have nothing to do with me caring about the US ranking in the UN index, only what was said here about it. If you want to back out of the baseless claims you made, then don't post. Don't be condescending and attempt to portray my responses to what you said as some jingoist defense.

 

[Kalevalatar]

My posts have nothing to do with me caring about the US ranking in the UN index. If you want to back out of the baseless claims you made, then don't post. Don't be condescending and attempt to portray my responses to what you said as some jingoist defense - as though you can put an end to it by patting my head and telling me we did good too.

Oh, goodie. Then it is not just about the United States of America's ranking. What other countries on that list you feel have been treated unfairly and given too low a ranking due to their unfavorable currency exchange rates, mistaken illiteracy figures, higher bar for literacy and all that? Which countries you think deserve the top places?

 

[canukian]

And many more of them end up digging ditches for a living... it all actually kind of evens out.

i saw a documenery on india. the poor went to a dry riverbed in summer to smash rocks together. they made gravel and draged it to town to sell it by the ton. small kids pitched in. would they like to come to america to become rich, by digging ditches? or get really rich? you have no clue what america is.

 

[canukian]

Just how many times in a row has Vancouver earned the top honor of the Economist Intelligence Unit's liveability rankings?

calgary is a terrible city. victoiria bc is dryer and sunnier that vancouver.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Oh, goodie. Then it is not just about the United States of America's ranking. What other countries on that list you feel have been treated unfairly and given too low a ranking due to their unfavorable currency exchange rates, mistaken illiteracy figures, higher bar for literacy and all that? Which countries you think deserve the top places?

I JUST SAID: My posts have nothing to do with me caring about the US ranking in the UN index

Did you actually read any of my posts? The only issue I had was the subjectivity of the index (which was a western, materialistic approach that claims to find "quality of life"). The topics that you mention in your post were things YOU brought up, not me. I was responding to the claims YOU and OTHERS made.

You basically made a bunch of nonsense claims about the US- which I showed were wrong and now you are telling me that the debate here is my personal issues with the UN ranking. YOU brought up the skewed GDP, YOU brought up the literacy rates, etc. I carefully pointed out how your comments/arguments were not only flawed, but illogical. Now you are running off on a rhetorical tangent, telling me that I am upset about the US ranking. This has been about what you posted.

Just to make this perfectly clear before you try and revise the debate once again: I wasn't complaining about the index- which is why I can't answer your last question. Quality of life is shaped by the culture and determined by the individual. You simply can't rank countries. I can not tell you what country or countries have the best quality of life.

Anyone that thinks there country has a "high quality of life" over others is clueless.

 

[kiwimac]

Bring on the fjords...

We have them too!