• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

And the best country to live in is ...

Kalevalatar

Supisuomalainen sisupussi
Jul 5, 2005
5,468
904
Pohjola
✟27,827.00
Country
Finland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
calgary is a terrible city. victoiria bc is dryer and sunnier that vancouver.

Victoria is too posh, not to mention rather inconvenient re: the obligatory ferry trip. :p

I JUST SAID: My posts have nothing to do with me caring about the US ranking in the UN index

Did you actually read any of my posts? The only issue I had was the subjectivity of the index (which was a western, materialistic approach that claims to find "quality of life"). The topics that you mention in your post were things YOU brought up, not me. I was responding to the claims YOU and OTHERS made.

You basically made a bunch of nonsense claims about the US- which I showed were wrong and now you are telling me that the debate here is my personal issues with the UN ranking. YOU brought up the skewed GDP, YOU brought up the literacy rates, etc. I carefully pointed out how your comments/arguments were not only flawed, but illogical. Now you are running off on a rhetorical tangent, telling me that I am upset about the US ranking. This has been about what you posted.

Just to make this perfectly clear before you try and revise the debate once again: I wasn't complaining about the index- which is why I can't answer your last question. Quality of life is shaped by the culture and determined by the individual. You simply can't rank countries. I can not tell you what country or countries have the best quality of life.

Anyone that thinks there country has a "high quality of life" over others is clueless.

Good. :thumbsup: Looks like we are in agreement here then. Over here we have longer life expectancy rates, both male and female, longer healthy life expectancy, lower unhealthy life expectancy, lower infant mortality rates, lower poverty rates, better literacy/functional literacy rates, better Gini index, more gender equality (measured by, for instance, women in ministerial positions: 58% vs. 24%; or seats in parliament held by women: 42% vs. 17%; or simply year women received the right to vote: 1906 vs. 1920/1965) --> hence, our higher ranking in the Human Development Index.
 
Upvote 0

exotic walrus

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2009
502
34
Australia
✟814.00
Faith
Atheist
I just showed that wages have increased. There is no way you can say wages are stagnant (and certainly not in decline)

I can say it pretty easily and whats more you will learn it in any graduate school.

The minimum wage in 1989 was $3.35.

According to the US Department of Labor, $3.35 in 1989 is worth $5.83 today. In 1999, it was $5.15 ($6.67 today)

That means the minimum wage in 2009 dollars, has gone from $5.83 in 1989 to $6.67 in 1999 to $7.25 in 2009.

http://www.workinglife.org/wiki/Wages+and+Benefits:+Real+Wages+(1964-2004)
 
Upvote 0

canukian

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2009
2,752
110
canada
✟3,428.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
[quote=Kalevalatar; Victoria is too posh, not to mention rather inconvenient re: the obligatory ferry trip. :p

too posh? property is cheaper than vancouver, cheaper and nicer and sunnier, hmm...

that ferry system is the largest in the world. they could repace it with a bridge. that is if the rich hippies with hellijets on the gulf islands would let them.
 
Upvote 0

Kalevalatar

Supisuomalainen sisupussi
Jul 5, 2005
5,468
904
Pohjola
✟27,827.00
Country
Finland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
too posh? property is cheaper than vancouver, cheaper and nicer and sunnier, hmm...

Posh as in "European". Victoria has that certain something European/Old World feel to it, certainly more so than Vancouver on the mainland.

But sure, Victoria is beautiful. The ferry trip is beautiful -- in good weather. ;) How could it not be? When Vancouver Island is so beautiful. The entire B.C. is beautiful. And has those famed fjords of its own, too, right there with beautiful Norway and beautiful New Zealand!

Yup. I envy those lucky, lucky people who get to live in such beautiful places on God's green earth.
 
Upvote 0

canukian

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2009
2,752
110
canada
✟3,428.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Code:
Posh as in "European". Victoria has that certain something European/Old World feel to it, certainly more so than Vancouver on the mainland.

i am puzzled as to what you mean. can you explain further. van and vic are exactly the same as far as i can see. exept. as i say, vic is sunnier and has more affordible houses.
 
Upvote 0

Kalevalatar

Supisuomalainen sisupussi
Jul 5, 2005
5,468
904
Pohjola
✟27,827.00
Country
Finland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
i am puzzled as to what you mean. can you explain further. van and vic are exactly the same as far as i can see. exept. as i say, vic is sunnier and has more affordible houses.

Well, if we are now talking about my impressions and that elusive "character" of the Canadian cities, here goes. :)

Vancouver is more cosmopolitan, Victoria is more European, British, more "quaint," in the nicest possible sense. Vancouver's skyline is "tall" -- all those high rises -- making it more like Seattle, Dallas, Hong Kong, Frankfurt... Whereas Victoria is more "small town," village-like, more "pedestrian". Edited to add: in a similar way I think Toronto is more "cosmopolitan" while Ottawa is more "Old World."

To my mind, Vancouver is "cosmopolitan," Victoria "European", Kelowna "US American", Pr. Rupert something "quintessential British Columbian", Pr. George "one big road junction", Banff "spooky", whereas Calgary is just bland, except for the striking horizon to the far west. Edmonton has her mall and nothing much else. There.

But these are, of course, my purely subjective impressions. :wave:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
S

SpiritualAntiseptic

Guest
I can say it pretty easily and whats more you will learn it in any graduate school.

That's funny, I have already been through grad school. Several of them, actually.


Aside from the fact that your link is invalid... how are you arguing against the fact that minimum wage has continued to increase? This is not something that can be spun around with little graphs. This is raw data.
 
Upvote 0
S

SpiritualAntiseptic

Guest
Victoria is too posh, not to mention rather inconvenient re: the obligatory ferry trip. :p



Good. :thumbsup: Looks like we are in agreement here then. Over here we have longer life expectancy rates, both male and female, longer healthy life expectancy, lower unhealthy life expectancy, lower infant mortality rates, lower poverty rates, better literacy/functional literacy rates, better Gini index, more gender equality (measured by, for instance, women in ministerial positions: 58% vs. 24%; or seats in parliament held by women: 42% vs. 17%; or simply year women received the right to vote: 1906 vs. 1920/1965) --> hence, our higher ranking in the Human Development Index.

You are using the typical debate tactic of restating the claims you made at the start of the discussion in addition to making new ones.

I am not restarting over, if you want to disagree with my post(s), then point your issues with the discussion already established. You have pretty much engaged in every form of rhetoric available in this topic.
 
Upvote 0

ACougar

U.S. Army Retired
Feb 7, 2003
16,795
1,295
Arizona
Visit site
✟45,452.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
If your at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, then I wholeheartedly agree with the findings of this survey... but what about those of us in the in the middle?

Take say, a family that makes about 120-150K a year and take another look. I believe the United States would rank at or very near the top.
 
Upvote 0

exotic walrus

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2009
502
34
Australia
✟814.00
Faith
Atheist
That's funny, I have already been through grad school. Several of them, actually.

Several schools but can't figure out the hyperlink code needs a closed bracket ) placed on it?

Aside from the fact that your link is invalid... how are you arguing against the fact that minimum wage has continued to increase? This is not something that can be spun around with little graphs. This is raw data.

I'm not arguing against it because it hasn't. You've said it has, provided numbers with no sources, and I have pointed out that there is a 3+ decade long trend of the exact opposite occurring.

The source link is from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
 
Upvote 0
S

SpiritualAntiseptic

Guest
Several schools but can't figure out the hyperlink code needs a closed bracket ) placed on it?



I'm not arguing against it because it hasn't. You've said it has, provided numbers with no sources, and I have pointed out that there is a 3+ decade long trend of the exact opposite occurring.

The source link is from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

I used the minimum wage and the US Bureau of Labor to show the minimum wage in today's dollars. You can't get more raw, basic and objective than that.

So, you are left with disputing three things:
1) That the minimum wages i posted were inaccurate (that I can easily prove)
2) That the conversion to 2009 dollars is inaccurate (it's from the Fed govt)
3) That 5.85 and 6.67 is more money than 7.25 (basic math)

It is a FACT and plain to see that if you are unskilled labor and making minimum wage in 2009, you are earning more than you would in the last several decades (with those wages converted to todays dollars)
 
Upvote 0

Kalevalatar

Supisuomalainen sisupussi
Jul 5, 2005
5,468
904
Pohjola
✟27,827.00
Country
Finland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You are using the typical debate tactic of restating the claims you made at the start of the discussion in addition to making new ones.

On the contrary. I am still talking about the Human Decelopment Index, which is the topic of this thread. You are the one who tried to move the goal post by dragging in the nonsense argument about the "quality of life" for an "avarage citizen," "productivity", "success" etc,, plus the usual "socialist" cry, here:

That's sort of a big "duh" - because the poll is setup to give socialist countries a higher ranking. One of the major factors are disparities in income between classes, which has nothing to do with the overall quality of life.

I don't mean to be a jingoist, but the United States consistantly has one of the higher qualities of life when you actually measure the quality of life for an average citizen. However, because there are many more millionaries in the US per capital than Norway, that somehow affects my quality of life. Basically, the folks that set the standards for the poll attempt to make up for the fact that nations that punish success (by reducing the upper class) end up hurting their overall productivity... so they balance it by adding income disparity.

Had you actually taken my advice and given even a cursorary glance at the HDI and its components (those you seem to be mistaking for "major factors" in your post above), you would have learned why the United States of America ranks 13th (still in the "Very high Human Development" category, so no shame there, as I already pointed out) and how come these dozen other countries ahead faired even better.

HDI said:
What is the human development index (HDI)?

The HDI – human development index – is a summary composite index that measures a country's average achievements in three basic aspects of human development: health, knowledge, and a decent standard of living. Health is measured by life expectancy at birth; knowledge is measured by a combination of the adult literacy rate and the combined primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrolment ratio; and standard of living by GDP per capita (PPP US$).

In all of which Norway beats the United States of America and the rest.

Furthermore, to highlight the components, for instance:

HDI said:
For example, Costa Rica and Iran have similar levels of income per person, but life expectancy and literacy differ greatly between the two countries, with Costa Rica having a much higher HDI value than Iran.

And specifically about the rich/poor/avarage ratio. You see, the number of millionaires ("because there are many more millionaries in the US per capital than Norway, that somehow affects my quality of life") does not matter:

HDI said:
What is the human poverty index?

Poverty has traditionally been measured as a lack of income - but this is far too narrow a definition. Human poverty is a concept that captures the many dimensions of poverty that exist in both poor and rich countries—it is the denial of choices and opportunities for living a life one has reason to value.

For HPI-2 (selected high-income OECD countries), deprivation in health is measured by the probability at birth of not surviving to age 60; deprivation in knowledge is measured by the percentage of adults lacking functional literacy skills; deprivation in a decent standard of living is measured by the percentage of people living below the income poverty line, set at 50% of the adjusted median household disposable income; and social exclusion is measured by the rate of long-term (12 months or more) unemployment of the labour force.

How is the HPI used?

To focus attention on the most deprived people and deprivations in basic human capabilities in a country, not on average national achievement. The human poverty indices focus directly on the number of people living in deprivation – presenting a very different picture from average national achievement. It also moves the focus of poverty debates away from concern about income poverty alone.

As you see, it is not about the number of millioinaires: it is about the denial of choices and opportunities -- access to higher education (and better paying jobs), health care, positions of power -- because one does not have the money to pay for that access to the goodies of the human development.

Obviously, Norway manages to provide the greatest choices and opportunities for her denizens across the board regardless of income level. Norwegians are very successful, so obviously they were not "punished" for being succesful, which was one of your nonsense arguments there.

If your at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, then I wholeheartedly agree with the findings of this survey... but what about those of us in the in the middle?

Life expectancy at birth; adult literacy rate; combined primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrolment ratio; and standard of living by GDP per capita (PPP US$); long-term (12 months or more) unemployment of the labour force -- isn't that "those of us in the middle"?

Norway does have longer life expectancy rates, better literacy/functional literacy rates, better enrolment rates, lower unemployment rates, and considerably higher GDP (PPP) per capita. So wouldn't you say that the Norwegians in the middle do have it even better, not dramatically better, of course, but another notch up better, earning Norway the #1 place? :wave:
 
Upvote 0

exotic walrus

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2009
502
34
Australia
✟814.00
Faith
Atheist
I used the minimum wage and the US Bureau of Labor to show the minimum wage in today's dollars. You can't get more raw, basic and objective than that.

So, you are left with disputing three things:
1) That the minimum wages i posted were inaccurate (that I can easily prove)
2) That the conversion to 2009 dollars is inaccurate (it's from the Fed govt)
3) That 5.85 and 6.67 is more money than 7.25 (basic math)

It is a FACT and plain to see that if you are unskilled labor and making minimum wage in 2009, you are earning more than you would in the last several decades (with those wages converted to todays dollars)



REAL WAGES
1964-2004
Average Weekly Earnings (in 1982 constant dollars)​
For all private nonfarm workers

Year
Real $
Change
1964
302.52



2004
277.57
-0.84%​

 
Upvote 0

Baggins

Senior Veteran
Mar 8, 2006
4,789
474
At Sea
✟22,482.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Labour
Norway is also using the Euro, .

Rubbish, it uses the Norwegian Kroner - edit I see this has been dealt with

Also you comment about inequality not being a good measure for working out the best country to live in is also rubbish:

Inequality can lead to poor mental health and depression, report says -- Eaton 338: b1104 -- BMJ

Inequality correlates with greater mental illness, more illness in general, more crime, all sorts of things that make a country a nasty place to live.

The more equal a society is the better educated it is the less crime it has and the better health it has.

All that could be a coincidence but I doubt it,
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Baggins

Senior Veteran
Mar 8, 2006
4,789
474
At Sea
✟22,482.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Labour
Wow; lumping in King's College with Oxford and Cambridge- eh?

I went to King's for a bit and to Imperial-- I thought Imperial was more cache than Kings-- but I don't know much about the English system.


I went to UCL for my Masters and that has more cache than either of them according to the latest THES list it is 4th in the world behind Havard, Cambridge and Yale.

But the US has the most entries on the list all together. I'm not sure how anglo-centric ( US and UK dominate ) it is mind you.
 
Upvote 0

bigbadwilf

Drinking from the glass half-empty
Dec 22, 2008
790
49
Oxford, UK
✟23,706.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Wow; lumping in King's College with Oxford and Cambridge- eh?

I went to King's for a bit and to Imperial-- I thought Imperial was more cache than Kings-- but I don't know much about the English system.

It gets a bit complicated with the colleges of the University of London (there are 19 colleges plus a smattering of institutes all of which are parts of the same federal university).
Generally speaking, for any given subject one or two of the colleges will rate in the Oxbridge region of performance. Except that is for some of the more specialist colleges which are really in a league of their own (thinking the School of African and Oriental Studies, the Royal Academy of Music and the Royal Veterinary College for example) but are too specialised to appear on the radar for the comparative tables. They all quite happily collaborate on research projects and poach staff with/from each other.

Generally, once you get away from Mordor, things are a bit simpler- Oxford, Cambridge and I think Durham have autonomous colleges that all feed in to their respective universities, but are separate financial entities, but they are (and I stand ready to be corrected) the only colligiate universities in the UK. Generally speaking the others tend to have halls of residence which are parts of the university that they service.
 
Upvote 0

ACougar

U.S. Army Retired
Feb 7, 2003
16,795
1,295
Arizona
Visit site
✟45,452.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Norway does have longer life expectancy rates, better literacy/functional literacy rates, better enrolment rates, lower unemployment rates, and considerably higher GDP (PPP) per capita. So wouldn't you say that the Norwegians in the middle do have it even better, not dramatically better, of course, but another notch up better, earning Norway the #1 place? :wave:

The study was designed to provide an overall view of everyone in a country. I'm just pointing out that in countries with a lot of economic disparity, the experience of the middle classes will differ significently from that of the working classes. If you drive a forklift for a living, no doubt your life will be a lot better in Norway... but what if you are a lawyer, an anesthesiologist or senior manangement?
 
Upvote 0