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An issue I've had with the idea of Calivinism: could someone explain please? Thanks!

FreeGrace2

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I'd like to offer some insight here. The reason this question is always asked of Calvinists is due to a misunderstanding of God's omniscience. The same question can be asked to anyone who denies Open Theism (the stance that says God doesn't know the future). If God knows the future perfectly, and every single person is born into this world with their eternal destination set in stone, what is the point of evangelism? I think both Calvinists and Arminians can say the same thing: Evangelism is the means of bringing people to faith in Jesus.
This is a good question. Since God already knows everything, what is the point? The huge difference between Calvinism and Scripture (I don't shill for the Arminians) is that in Calvinism, God actually chooses who will believe, whereas in Scripture God actually chooses to save those who believe.

Some Calvinists have said "what difference does it make?" (kinda like our former Sec of State regarding Benghazi). Here's the difference: Calvinism actually gives those in hell a huge excuse: Christ did not die for me. I had no choice to avoid this place.

otoh, Scripture says that no man has any excuse; the free gift of eternal life is available to everyone, because Christ died for everyone, and that free gift is received by means of faith in Christ, a totally non-meritorious act.

The difference is huge.

So even in Arminianism, the same problem exists. There is a non-elect group of people, the same group God knows will never believe. The same group whose names are not written in the Book of Life, the same group who will spend an eternity in hell. Praying for them and evangelizing them will never change this, because God already infallibly knows where they will end up. This is why it's often said that the only consistent conclusion of Arminianism is Open Theism, because Arminians function as though prayer and evangelism might bring someone to saving faith who God knew would never believe in the first place.
Again, I don't shill for the Arms, but Scripture is clear that man does not have any excuse for going to hell. Only Calvinism provides an excuse for being there, and they won't even admit it!!

Bottom line: It doesn't matter whether you're a Calvinist or Arminian. If you believe God is omniscient, that necessarily means you believe when you pray and evangelize, God has already decided whether he will or will not answer those prayers, and God has already decided whether he will or will not save the person you're evangelizing.
If this were really true, that "it doesn't matter whether..." then why all the debating for the last 500+ years?

Here's the bottom line: Scripture matters. And it matters very much. We need to know what Scripture teaches.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Interesting. I've never heard Arminianism described in that way.

However, as I am not convinced of either side, I have to assume that as much as Calvinists believe Arminians misunderstand Calvinist theology, Arminians would believe that Calvinists misunderstand Arminian theology to a similar degree. Everyone looks at other people's views through the lens of their own.

But thanks! I was originally trying to get both stances from their source, but it also makes sense to try and understand each stance from the others' point of view as well.
Hey Brian,

The issue is not Calvinism vs Arminianism. Both contain error, just in different areas. Just as both share truth in some areas.

I'm glad you're not "convinced of either side", since both have problems in their theology. Just keep your eyes open and keep asking questions. And pray that God will reveal His truth to you.
 
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intojoy

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FreeGrace2 said:
This is a good question. Since God already knows everything, what is the point? The huge difference between Calvinism and Scripture (I don't shill for the Arminians) is that in Calvinism, God actually chooses who will believe, whereas in Scripture God actually chooses to save those who believe.

Some Calvinists have said "what difference does it make?" (kinda like our former Sec of State regarding Benghazi). Here's the difference: Calvinism actually gives those in hell a huge excuse: Christ did not die for me. I had no choice to avoid this place.

otoh, Scripture says that no man has any excuse; the free gift of eternal life is available to everyone, because Christ died for everyone, and that free gift is received by means of faith in Christ, a totally non-meritorious act.

The difference is huge.

Again, I don't shill for the Arms, but Scripture is clear that man does not have any excuse for going to hell. Only Calvinism provides an excuse for being there, and they won't even admit it!!

If this were really true, that "it doesn't matter whether..." then why all the debating for the last 500+ years?

Here's the bottom line: Scripture matters. And it matters very much. We need to know what Scripture teaches.

It matters because although God justifies the end, He incorporates the prayers and preaching of the church as part of the process. This is why we are not to judge who is or is not elect but must preach the gospel to every creature.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Exactly. What people like FG2 are missing from their theology is original sin.
How disingenuous of griff to say that. He knows very well that I've acknowledged Adams's sin, which corrupted humanity. I have no idea why he does that. My theology absolutely does recognize that fallen man is totally incapable of restoring relationship with God. And that God has provided the solution of that problem by the death of Christ for everyone.

It's the fall that is keeping people from coming to Jesus. We are all born "in Adam" with a heart that is hostile to the Gospel of Grace. If God doesn't intervene, we will all perish because the fall of Adam rendered all of Adam's descendants as enemies of God.
Seems griff denies that God already has given to mankind what is necessary to seek Him, thereby respond to His offer of eternal life. Acts 17:26-27.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7 ESV)
This passage describes regeneration "made us alive", then notes by grace you have been saved", which is repeated in v.8 but with the added "through faith".

God graciously intervened, and infallibly saves those whom he set his love upon before the foundation of the world.
What he is saying is that the only people who are saved are those Christ died for. Does that make any sense to you? Does it align with Scripture?

He didn't send Christ to merely make men savable, or merely make them reconcilable, but he actually sent Christ to save and to reconcile.
My view is that through His death, He not only paid the sin debt in full, and thus, satisfying the justice of God, but He also purchased eternal life (Heb 9:12) for everyone. Therefore, there is no "savable" or "reconcilable" as griff continues to think regarding my view. Christ actually holds the gift of eternal life for everyone, and freely gifts it to believers. But they reject that.

Not one part of the equation depends on anything man does. Salvation is of the Lord.
If you carefully examine all they say, they make faith irrelevant to salvation. Though they'll say that the "salvation package includes both faith and eternal life". Nonsense. The Bible is very clear; savlation is by grace through faith.

So, in conclusion, folks like FG2 (while he will never admit it) denies the doctrine of Original Sin, maybe not officially, but he does so inherently in his arguments by acting like Calvinism is keeping people from being saved.
Do you see the sneeky charge of "inherently" in his comment. It shows that he really doesn't comprehend my view, and concludes what isn't my view, as I've already shown. I do not deny the Fall of man "officially" or "inherently". That is a blatant ________.

To the contrary, the truths taught in Calvinism (the Bible, really) is what ensures people will be saved!
No, not Calvinism. The Bible says that God is pleased to save those who believe. Just note the order here. He saves those who believe. What comes first, the saving or the believing?
 
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BrianJK

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From an outside perspective, it seems like members of both sides, if you will, believe the "other" side is misrepresenting them. It also seems like members of both sides have come up with definitions of the other side based on the beliefs inherent to their own side.

I think the reason these arguments may get nowhere is that neither side is willing to look at the other side without the lens of their own belief, you know, look at the other side the way a member of that other side might actually look at it. Honestly, I don't even know if that's possible.

Does anyone, by chance, know of a completely objective publication on this? I would be interested in reading about the two sides without the slant that is inherent in the explanation of anyone who holds to a particular belief.

Regardless, it has been interesting reading this and other threads. It is interesting seeing the difference between the way a Calvinist talks about Calvinism to the way an Arminian does, and vice versa.
 
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guuila

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From an outside perspective, it seems like members of both sides, if you will, believe the "other" side is misrepresenting them. It also seems like members of both sides have come up with definitions of the other side based on the beliefs inherent to their own side.

I agree. However, FG2 loves to find any reason he can to say you're misrepresenting him, even if it means choosing one word you used so he can say "I don't like that word. That's not what I believe!!" He'll trivialize the debate over semantics. I've dealt with plenty of synergists who don't act like that.

I think the reason these arguments may get nowhere is that neither side is willing to look at the other side without the lens of their own belief, you know, look at the other side the way a member of that other side might actually look at it. Honestly, I don't even know if that's possible.

Actually, it's entirely possible. I and most of the Calvinists here were synergists at one time. Then I started studying the Bible. I tried as hard as I could to not be a Calvinist. It causes a lot of tension when you deviate from your family's traditions. But I kept examining the arguments both sides were making and the synergistic worldview just didn't make any sense anymore. Once I finally "let go" and decided to quit fighting against the doctrines of grace, I felt more freedom than I ever have in my life. True freedom is total submission to a sovereign God. Most of the synergists I interact with here absolutely despise the doctrines of grace. That is their #1 problem. It's not as though they're saying, "Well, these doctrines Calvinism teaches are fine, and God would be perfectly just and good to operate that way. In fact, if God did operate that way, that would be fine with me and I'd still worship him! But I just don't think that's how God works, and let me show you why from the Bible..." No. It's never like that. It's more like "The god you serve is an eternal rapist!!!! RAWR!!!" and then they twist up the Bible (maybe not intentionally) to justify their traditions. A lot of them have admitted that if God himself appeared before them and said "The Calvinists are right." they would never worship him. That is a red flag. If God is how the Arminians say, I'd still worship him. I'd be confused about some things, but there's no doubt in my mind. I'd still worship him.

Does anyone, by chance, know of a completely objective publication on this? I would be interested in reading about the two sides without the slant that is inherent in the explanation of anyone who holds to a particular belief.

I don't think that's possible. We all have presuppositions and biases.
 
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FreeGrace2

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OH ! that explains it.

I couldn’t put my finger on his strange theology. Thanks for pointing that out.
Either you didn't read post #24, or you didn't understand it. I refuted his false allegation.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I agree. However, FG2 loves to find any reason he can to say you're misrepresenting him, even if it means choosing one word you used so he can say "I don't like that word.
In fact, it's rather tiring to have to keep correcting the errors of others. I wish they would/could deal with what I actually believe, rather than having to keep correcting them.

That's not what I believe!!" He'll trivialize the debate over semantics. I've dealt with plenty of synergists who don't act like that.

Actually, it's entirely possible. I and most of the Calvinists here were synergists at one time. Then I started studying the Bible. I tried as hard as I could to not be a Calvinist. It causes a lot of tension when you deviate from your family's traditions. But I kept examining the arguments both sides were making and the synergistic worldview just didn't make any sense anymore. Once I finally "let go" and decided to quit fighting against the doctrines of grace, I felt more freedom than I ever have in my life. True freedom is total submission to a sovereign God. Most of the synergists I interact with here absolutely despise the doctrines of grace. That is their #1 problem. It's not as though they're saying, "Well, these doctrines Calvinism teaches are fine, and God would be perfectly just and good to operate that way. In fact, if God did operate that way, that would be fine with me and I'd still worship him! But I just don't think that's how God works, and let me show you why from the Bible..." No. It's never like that. It's more like "The god you serve is an eternal rapist!!!! RAWR!!!" and then they twist up the Bible (maybe not intentionally) to justify their traditions. A lot of them have admitted that if God himself appeared before them and said "The Calvinists are right." they would never worship him. That is a red flag. If God is how the Arminians say, I'd still worship him. I'd be confused about some things, but there's no doubt in my mind. I'd still worship him.



I don't think that's possible. We all have presuppositions and biases.
How about this suggestion, Brian. Ask any question you want of both griff and me, with the stipulation that neither of us make ANY comment about the other's view. We can only answer your question from our own view. In that way, you would be able to accurately assess the differences between our views for yourself.

I'm game.
 
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Either you didn't read post #24, or you didn't understand it. I refuted his false allegation.
I think he meant that the original sin causes Total Depravity in all of mankind. He was going further into the foundation of your strange theologies. If you say man has free will then you agree with "assisted" grace in the Five Articles of Remonstrants commonly used by the wesleyans or the arminians while the Calvinist deny that man is 99.9999999999+% spiritually dead. You might be an arminian when you suggest man can cooperate in his salvation. You seem to say man can cooperate and not cooperate at the same time. You say any thing to keep the red tape spinning and you're really drowning in them and embarrassing the non-denominational churches.

red_tape.jpg

 
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nobdysfool

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Either you didn't read post #24, or you didn't understand it. I refuted his false allegation.

No, you just spoke against it. Refutation takes a lot more than just saying "you're misrepresenting my views", with the unspoken "that means you are wrong".
 
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FreeGrace2

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Do you wish your suggestions will save a man?
My wishes are irrelevant regarding any man's salvation. Though, like Paul, I do wish that everyone would accept the free gift of eternal life.

Can you save a man?
A very silly question, don't you think? No person can save anyone, including themself. Why do you ask such mindless questions?
 
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FreeGrace2

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No, you just spoke against it. Refutation takes a lot more than just saying "you're misrepresenting my views", with the unspoken "that means you are wrong".
OK, you didn't read the post. I said more than what you claim I said. I correct the false views that are misrepresentations.

And when I do correct someone's misperception of my view, that DOES mean that they are wrong about my view. Why isn't that clear to you?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I think he meant that the original sin causes Total Depravity in all of mankind. He was going further into the foundation of your strange theologies.
What you call "strange" comes straight from Scripture. But that's ok. You'll not give account to me, but to God Himself.

If you say man has free will then you agree with "assisted" grace in the Five Articles of Remonstrants commonly used by the wesleyans or the arminians while the Calvinist deny that man is 99.9999999999+% spiritually dead.
OK, once more to clarify. Free will doesn't "assist" with anything. It is ludicrous to even say that. Free will for me is only free choice among available options. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of that definition. No problem; just ask. But free will has NO POWER. Is that clear to you? iow, it doesn't DO anything.

You might be an arminian when you suggest man can cooperate in his salvation.
I've NEVER said that, and I totally disagree with that statement. Salvation is an action that is totally of God. And God acts totally without anyone's help after man believes. While you might call that "assistance" or "help", you would just be wrong. One's act of believing has no power in it, nor can it help God do anything. Why Calvinists seem unable to grasp that is troubling.

You seem to say man can cooperate and not cooperate at the same time.
Maybe the problem is your own bias regarding the role of believing. Calvinists claim that God gives the gift of faith along with the gift of salvation; kinda like 2 gifts in the same "bag". But that is not Biblical. The gift of salvation is given to those who already believe. They aren't 2 objects in the same gift bag, if you think that.

You say any thing to keep the red tape spinning and you're really drowning in them and embarrassing the non-denominational churches.
So, I really "say anything"? Can you actually demonstrate some of this nonsense that you charge me with. And how am I "drowning" in red tape? Can you actually and specfically show me?

If not, you have shown yourself to be full of empty words.
 
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Don Maurer

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It seems to me that the Calvinist idea (belief, doctrine, etc) that only a select few whom God has chosen has any opportunity of salvation and that everyone else is completely lost and has zero chance of salvation actually limit the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. Is this idea indeed saying that Christ's blood is only sufficient for a few and thereby is not powerful enough to cover the sins of all the world?
Brian, allow me the opportunity to convince you that Calvinism is right. There are a lot of things which you wrote above that lack good expression, and do not express very well what Calvinists believe. I hope to clarify things.

First, (I bolded the word opportunity) the word opportunity leaves things open to misunderstanding. Calvinists believe that when Christ shed his blood and died, it made salvation certain and completely secure for many. So for those who will be saved, it is not merely an opportunity, but a certainty. For those who will not be saved, it is not really an opportunity. We are all hard of heart and cannot believe, but God draws some to salvation (see john 6:44).

Second, the phrase "actually limit the sufficiency of the blood of Christ." There is a sense in which Calvinists acknowledge that the value of Christs blood is infinite. When a sinner is saved, it simply does not lower the amount of grace that Christ has available. If all the people in the whole universe get saved, and then we multiply that figure by the trillionth power, it has not lowered the amount of the grace of God available by one iota. The issue is not how much grace is available, but to whom did he give this grace. Calvinists say God gave two kinds of grace. He gives common grace to all, but he gives his special elective and salvific grace only to the elect. While this grace is infinite, and saves the elect to the uttermost, it is all given to the limited elect. Yet if God had chosen to make trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions more elect, it would not lower the amount of grace he has. So then, the Calvinist sees the amount of Gods grace is infinite and superlative, but given all to elect. So then the scope of people that Gods saving grace is given to is limited, but the salvation is certain and infinite.

On the other hand, when you make the extent of God's saving grace to be given to all people everywhere, then the power of God's grace to save is obviously very limited. God did not save everyone (unless you are a universalist). So then, in non-Calvinism, God tries to save everyone, he just fails. I must say, because far less than half the worlds population is saved, in fact probably far less than half, God failed miserably to accomplish the salvation of all mankind. Such a weak and inefficient salvation rarely accomplishes what God intends.

On the other hand (how may hands to I have?), in Calvinism, Gods salvation is perfect and completely powerful to accomplish all that God intends. He saves his elect to the uttermost. The rest, God never intends to save and he did not send Christ to die for them. Who then "limits the sufficiency of the blood of Christ." I would say the non-Calvinists limits the sufficiency of the power of the blood to save. Of course Calvinists limit the extent of the blood. So both are limited.

If Christ's blood is not powerful enough to cover the sins of the world, then isn't this idea saying that God is not all-powerful? Isn't this saying that Satan still gets most of the spoils of the world? If Christ's blood is not powerful enough to cover the sins of the world, then how can His blood facilitate victory over Satan, as alluded to in Revelation 12:11?

If Christ's blood, on the other hand, is powerful enough to cover the sins of the world, but God denies its application in the majority of sinners, doesn't this mean that the penalty has been paid for all sin (since Christ's blood is powerful enough to cover it all), but God prefers to let a large portion of it be spilled in vain? If not, why?

Thanks for your attention to my questions!

Well, at the end you have a good point. If the shed blood is intended for each and every person that ever lived, and most of them go to hell, that is certainly shedding Christs blood in vain. Such thoughts or frightening.

Again, notice the use of your term "powerful." I believe you used the term 5 times. Only in Calvinistic doctrine is the blood of Christ powerful enough to save all those under the blood.

Which statement seems most biblical?
* Some which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
* Most that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
* John 637 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Out of those given to the Son by the Father, each and every one of them without exception will come to the Son. Why is it universal?
John 6:44 says... "No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."
No man can come, yet verse 37 says all that are give to the Son will come. How will they come (vs 37), if they cannot come (vs 44)? Of course verse 44 provides the answer. God draws them.

At the end of verse 44 is the salvation provided for in the atonement. This is the power of the atonement. This is why the shed blood of Christ never fails to save.

So then, let me rephrase your original question. Let me ask you. Do you believe the shed blood of Christ is a weak failure that fails to save most people because of mans powerful free will? Or is man the weakling that is saved by the powerful God, and God never fails in that which he intends?
 
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Skala

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What's hilarious (yet sad) about Freegrace2 is he claims to not be an Arminian, even though he's pretty much straight up exactly an Arminian. (Seriously, he affirms probably most, if not all, of the 5 points of Arminianism)

Yet he thinks he's some super-special-unique-Christian who doesn't fall into any historical theological category, even though if he was in the Synod of Dordt 400 years ago he would have been sitting on the side of the Arminians.
 
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FreeGrace2

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What's hilarious (yet sad) about Freegrace2 is he claims to not be an Arminian, even though he's pretty much straight up exactly an Arminian. (Seriously, he affirms probably most, if not all, of the 5 points of Arminianism)
I suggest the word "seriously" doesn't even beging to describe the misprepresentation of my view. Your sneeky "if not all" in reference to the 5 points means that you are ascribing conditional security to my view, which I've thoroughly refuted many times. I'm sure you've seen it, so why you decided to thrown that in here is mysterious.

Yet he thinks he's some super-special-unique-Christian who doesn't fall into any historical theological category, even though if he was in the Synod of Dordt 400 years ago he would have been sitting on the side of the Arminians.
Your disingenuous description demonstrates how shallow you think. I've never made any such claims, nor suggestions of such claims. All I've done is give my views, which the vast majority of Calvinists seem unable to properly represent when posting a response to me.

You've made some pretty significant judgments about me that you have no basis in which to make the claims.
 
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Don Maurer

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As a fellow "newbie" and not either a Calvinist nor Arminian, I will tell you that Calvinists reject any idea of "opportunity" or "chance". ..... (Snip).....

FreeGrace2, which of the original points made by the Remonstrants do you disagree with?

* My guess is that you will remain silent about this one. Most people that make that claim are just ingorant of theology. Maybe you are too, I am not sure. I do wonder if you are being intentionally deceptive? Do you know you are espousing Arminian doctrine or worse? Possibly you deny any previent grace at all. This of course take you close to a heretical doctrine called Pelagianism.

* I will certainly agree that Calvinists deny that Christ death is so weak as to provide only a mere "opportunity" to be saved. It saves one absolutely and to the uttermost.
 
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Don Maurer

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You've made some pretty significant judgments about me that you have no basis in which to make the claims.
Feel free to count me in with Skala. I totally agree with his assessment or your theology as Arminian (at best).

Feel free to show us where you disagree with the Remonstrants.
 
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