An issue I've had with the idea of Calivinism: could someone explain please? Thanks!

[andreha]

I'll be real clear here: I am FOR truth and the Bible. I don't find truth in Calvinism.

I've demonstrated that in two threads; "Jesus Christ died for everyone" in which I challenged Calvinists to provide any verse that plainly states that Christ died ONLY for the elect (whatever wording is fine), or that He DIDN'T die for everyone (any wording is fine). No one, even after the thread splitting twice, have done that. Because the Bible doesn't teach that.

Second thread, "Calvinism provides an excuse for the hell dwellers" didn't have any Calvinist who could refute that charge. Although, it really riled up the troops, for sure. But in Calvinism, the ONLY difference between the sinners in heaven and the sinners in hell is that Christ died ONLY for the ones in heaven.

All that stuff about justice for the sinners in hell ignores the plain fact that the elect didn't get justice but mercy. It's all about who got chosen in Calvinism, and you cannot refute that.

The Bible teaches that mankind is fully accountable and responsible for their own decisions and actions. So those in hell have on excuse, because Christ died for their sins and purchased eternal life for them, but they just weren't interested, or they rejected the gift, or they didn't believe the gift existed, or they didn't think God existed, etc, etc.

Calvinism gives the hell dwellers an excuse. The Bible doesn't.

to that.

 

[Hammster]

Much like your doctrine of God giving certain ones passes to heaven while leaving the others to themselves. I don't believe you think that is unfair.

What does that have to do with you giving passes to those who quote Paul, but believe as you do otherwise?

Oh, and I do think election is unfair.

 

[RisingSpirit]

I'll be real clear here: I am FOR truth and the Bible. I don't find truth in Calvinism..

You switch back and forth. You’re Calvinistic one minute and then you switch to arminianism the next minute then you jump to Romanism and then back to you own theology and then back to Calvinism and then on to armininsm and on and on.

You really don't know what you want to say. You support and then you unsupport. You say it's true and then you say it's a lie. You go on and on and really don't have a foundation.

 

[Hammster]

I'll be real clear here: I am FOR truth and the Bible. I don't find truth in Calvinism.

I've demonstrated that in two threads; "Jesus Christ died for everyone" in which I challenged Calvinists to provide any verse that plainly states that Christ died ONLY for the elect (whatever wording is fine), or that He DIDN'T die for everyone (any wording is fine). No one, even after the thread splitting twice, have done that. Because the Bible doesn't teach that.

Second thread, "Calvinism provides an excuse for the hell dwellers" didn't have any Calvinist who could refute that charge. Although, it really riled up the troops, for sure. But in Calvinism, the ONLY difference between the sinners in heaven and the sinners in hell is that Christ died ONLY for the ones in heaven.

All that stuff about justice for the sinners in hell ignores the plain fact that the elect didn't get justice but mercy. It's all about who got chosen in Calvinism, and you cannot refute that.

The Bible teaches that mankind is fully accountable and responsible for their own decisions and actions. So those in hell have on excuse, because Christ died for their sins and purchased eternal life for them, but they just weren't interested, or they rejected the gift, or they didn't believe the gift existed, or they didn't think God existed, etc, etc.

Calvinism gives the hell dwellers an excuse. The Bible doesn't.

The elect got justice. It was paid for by Christ, however. I don't know why you'd have a problem with that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You switch back and forth. You’re Calvinistic one minute and then you switch to arminianism the next minute then you jump to Romanism and then back to you own theology and then back to Calvinism and then on to armininsm and on and on.

Your problem is your obsession with labels. Seems you just can't resist labelling everything.

What you see as switching back and forth between these "labels" is my understanding of truth. But you'd have to put your label maker down in order to understand that.

[QUTOE]You really don't know what you want to say.[/QUOTE]
Really??? And how is that? If you would put down the label maker, you might actually begin to see truth.

You support and then you unsupport. You say it's true and then you say it's a lie.

OK, put your charge where your mouth is. Show me ANY posts where I've said one thing and then the opposite. Go.

When you can't find any, I will accept your deepest apologies.

You go on and on and really don't have a foundation.

I just gave it, which you didn't include in your post here. But since you like to play around with label makers, I don't expect you to see it.

I seem confused, conflicted, contradicted to you ONLY because of your penchant for labelling people. Put it down and think through things.

Truth isn't labelled. Labels may contain truth, or not. Figure it out.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The elect got justice. It was paid for by Christ, however.

You are in gross error. The elect did NOT get justice, for heaven's sake. They got MERCY, not justice. How can you miss that!!

I don't know why you'd have a problem with that.

I have a problem with people who make HUGE mistakes.

The elect get mercy because they were chosen. The non-elect get justice because they were not chosen.

You haven't refuted my chage that Calvinism gives an excuse for the hell dwellers.

The Bible, otoh, does NO such thing.

 

[Hammster]

You are in gross error. The elect did NOT get justice, for heaven's sake. They got MERCY, not justice. How can you miss that!!


I have a problem with people who make HUGE mistakes.

The elect get mercy because they were chosen. The non-elect get justice because they were not chosen.

You haven't refuted my chage that Calvinism gives an excuse for the hell dwellers.

The Bible, otoh, does NO such thing.

Well, I'm in Christ.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Galatians 2:20 NASB)

God is just and must punish sin. So my sin was punished in Christ. Did I also receive mercy? Most definitely. But don't pretend that my sins weren't punished. Or that I'm not in Christ. And I'm even seated with Him.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7 NASB)

 

[BrianJK]

Well, I'm in Christ.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Galatians 2:20 NASB)

God is just and must punish sin. So my sin was punished in Christ. Did I also receive mercy? Most definitely. But don't pretend that my sins weren't punished. Or that I'm not in Christ. And I'm even seated with Him.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7 NASB)

Hamster, you've pretty much steered me away from believing Calvinism. I really tried, but when you quote that God is rich in mercy and present a picture of God who is limited in mercy, it's difficult to reconcile. Earlier you assumed my illustration was some kind of argument... it was not intended as such, but has yet to be addressed except by you quoting some Scripture of which I didn't really understand the applicability.

 

[Hammster]

Hamster, you've pretty much steered me away from believing Calvinism. I really tried, but when you quote that God is rich in mercy and present a picture of God who is limited in mercy, it's difficult to reconcile. Earlier you assumed my illustration was some kind of argument... it was not intended as such, but has yet to be addressed except by you quoting some Scripture of which I didn't really understand the applicability.

The scripture is intended to show you the depth of our depravity. We aren't just some misbehaving, misguided children. We are, by nature, enemies of God who hate Him.

As for mercy, if He had only chosen to save just one miserable wretch, He would be rich in mercy.

If that's driven you away from Calvinism, then there's not much I can do about that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The scripture is intended to show you the depth of our depravity. We aren't just some misbehaving, misguided children. We are, by nature, enemies of God who hate Him.

There's no verses that say that everyone hates God. All the unbelievers out there who are "religious" don't hate Him. They are just wrong in their understanding of Him.

As for mercy, if He had only chosen to save just one miserable wretch, He would be rich in mercy.

Sweet deal for that one lucky one, huh. Bummer for all the rest.

If that's driven you away from Calvinism, then there's not much I can do about that.

We should all be driven by truth; what does the Scripture SAY? It doesn't say what the Calvinists say.

 

[BrianJK]

The scripture is intended to show you the depth of our depravity. We aren't just some misbehaving, misguided children. We are, by nature, enemies of God who hate Him.

As for mercy, if He had only chosen to save just one miserable wretch, He would be rich in mercy.

If that's driven you away from Calvinism, then there's not much I can do about that.

"by nature"... so there's nothing they can do about it, yes? They were, you could say, created that way?

 

[RisingSpirit]

...OK, put your charge where your mouth is. Show me ANY posts where I've said one thing and then the opposite. Go.....

I read most of your post in a bird's eye view and combine them all together to see if you get it. You don't get it. It would take a life time to cherry pick your posts cause you'll switch and go in circles claiming you proved your theology with text proofs. We show you text proofs as well.

 

[Hammster]

"by nature"... so there's nothing they can do about it, yes? They were, you could say, created that way?

"Why" is irrelevant. It's what scripture says.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB)

 

[BrianJK]

"Why" is irrelevant. It's what scripture says.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB)

Why is quite relevant, just difficult to think about in the systems of either Calvinism or Armunianism.

And that passage said the lost are like the saved were before they were saved. They did what pleased them, being disobedient, just like we did. I fail to see how this changes the illustrations. You basically answered me by saying my thoughts don't matter, only your conclusions.

 

[BrianJK]

I have to reconcile God with all Scripture. This includes not only God's justice but things like the fact that God actually is love, that He wants me to love enemies and that He wishes me abundant joy. I have a hard time seeing those three things in Calvinism. Arminianism is no better, though.

 

[Hammster]

Why is quite relevant, just difficult to think about in the systems of either Calvinism or Armunianism.

And that passage said the lost are like the saved were before they were saved. They did what pleased them, being disobedient, just like we did. I fail to see how this changes the illustrations. You basically answered me by saying my thoughts don't matter, only your conclusions.

The problem with your illustration was that it's an argument (or illustration) from emotion. The "master" wasn't sinned against in the way we sin against God. And the orphans weren't as wicked towards the master as we are towards God. So it falls too short of the reality.

That's different than saying your thoughts don't matter.

 

[joeboonda]

Hi! I am a Calvarinianist! That is, I believe anyone who trusts Christ, that his work on the cross of Calvary paid the penalty of all our sin, which is death, (so Christ died, thus paying the penalty in full), is freely given the free gift of eternal (not temporary) life from God, including Christ's righteousness, the righteousness of God (without with no one may enter Heaven), freely imputed unto them.

You see, God knows the future, so he knows who will accept the free gift and who will not. Those whom he foreknew would accept it, he predestined to see them all the way home. God freely saves and keeps his own. So we are freely saved forevermore and to the uttermost, not by our own merits or works, but by Christ's. That is the pure Gospel to me.

For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 1Tim. 1:12b

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this to RS:

...OK, put your charge where your mouth is. Show me ANY posts where I've said one thing and then the opposite. Go.....

And he dodges and parries with this:

I read most of your post in a bird's eye view and combine them all together to see if you get it. You don't get it. It would take a life time to cherry pick your posts cause you'll switch and go in circles claiming you proved your theology with text proofs. We show you text proofs as well.

Nice going RS!

As I thought, you can't name a single post. "take a lifetime" LOL. Let's not be so dramatic, ok? But a real nice sidestep of you.

As I thought, you can't put your charge where you mouth is.

If you could have, you would have.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why is quite relevant, just difficult to think about in the systems of either Calvinism or Armunianism.

You are quite right, Brian. The "why" is very relevant. And hammster covers the inadequacy of his Calvinism with the comment of "irrelevant". Generally, that means one has no answer to give. Sometimes, it means the question is bogus. But your question wasn't bogus at all. hammster just thinks so, apparently.

And that passage said the lost are like the saved were before they were saved. They did what pleased them, being disobedient, just like we did. I fail to see how this changes the illustrations. You basically answered me by saying my thoughts don't matter, only your conclusions.

Ouch!

Man has no excuse for rejecting the gospel, because God created mankind to seek Him (Acts 17:26-27) and God revealed Himself to mankind (Rom 1:19-20), so that mankind has no excuse for rejecting Him or His gift.

There is nothing about the human nature that precludes responding to God's existence or gift. God has already done everything to remove any such idea as noted by the verses just cited.

When people believe in Christ, that pleases God (Heb 11:6), and He gives a free gift (non-meritorious) to those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi! I am a Calvarinianist! That is, I believe anyone who trusts Christ, that his work on the cross of Calvary paid the penalty of all our sin, which is death, (so Christ died, thus paying the penalty in full), is freely given the free gift of eternal (not temporary) life from God, including Christ's righteousness, the righteousness of God (without with no one may enter Heaven), freely imputed unto them.

You see, God knows the future, so he knows who will accept the free gift and who will not. Those whom he foreknew would accept it, he predestined to see them all the way home. God freely saves and keeps his own. So we are freely saved forevermore and to the uttermost, not by our own merits or works, but by Christ's. That is the pure Gospel to me.

For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 1Tim. 1:12b

Amen! Well said.