An important question to ask when considering the existence of God

[ToddNotTodd]

You are just making empty claims.


eudaimonia,

Mark

They aren't empty. They're chock full of ridiculousness.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I myself am agnostic, but do hope for the divinity of Jesus Christ to save my soul from Hell.

Here is the question, when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes? Really what kind of odds would have to play out for that to happen? Because over a fourteen billion year period for all the atoms to be created and put into just the right place, so that the one sperm of your Father or my Father would go to the one egg of your or my Mother, is totally astronomical.

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved. So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence? Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility. However our knowledge is incomplete, because there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know. Still though, it seems to me like a good argument for there being a creator or higher power of some kind.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Sam

Hi Sam,

I don't look so much at the odds of Creation vs. random evolution; rather, I look at the odds of each stone in the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem being dismantled within the lifetime of those who heard from Jesus that the 2nd Temple would be dismantled within their lifetime (the Western/Wailing Wall being an exception--and I'll let you ponder as to why).

I don't have the odds for this figured out, but it's got to be ... "fairly high."



2PhiloVoid

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... I look at the odds of each stone in the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem being dismantled within the lifetime of those who heard from Jesus that the 2nd Temple would be dismantled within their lifetime...

Was the text describing this written before or after the 2nd Temple was dismantled?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Was the text describing this written before or after the 2nd Temple was dismantled?

LOL!! How did I know that would be the next question posed? (Philo thinks to himself: "...maybe,...maybe i AM psychic, after all!")

Well, just for grins and giggles, let's assume that the text was written before the 2nd Temple was dismantled by the Romans. It will at least make a good thought experiment.

(In some sense, all it really comes down to is whether Jesus did in fact accurately prognosticate about the fate of the 2nd Temple. Whether the Gospels were written before or after the fact of the 2nd Temple isn't something that I think establishes or disestablishes the other issue of whether Jesus in fact said these things. The problem is, as I'm sure you already know, that no one can hop into a time-machine and go back and find out if Jesus did in fact say these things about the 2nd Temple. So, since we're all in the same boat on this aspect of it, I won't spend useless time trying to defend whether the Gospels were written before or after 70 AD.)


2PhiloVoid

 

[Ana the Ist]

I myself am agnostic, but do hope for the divinity of Jesus Christ to save my soul from Hell.

Here is the question, when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes? Really what kind of odds would have to play out for that to happen? Because over a fourteen billion year period for all the atoms to be created and put into just the right place, so that the one sperm of your Father or my Father would go to the one egg of your or my Mother, is totally astronomical.

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved. So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence? Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility. However our knowledge is incomplete, because there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know. Still though, it seems to me like a good argument for there being a creator or higher power of some kind.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Sam

Simply this...

Any significantly minor event looked at as a "probability" of "all the things that had to happen before it" is an astronomical number.

Go outside in autumn and watch a brown leaf fall from a tree. What's the probability that all the things that had to happen before for that specific leaf to fall exactly right then?!? It's astronomical....

And yet we don't doubt that anything but natural processes were involved because we understand those processes and see this as ordinary.

 

[Paradoxum]

Here is the question, when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes? Really what kind of odds would have to play out for that to happen? Because over a fourteen billion year period for all the atoms to be created and put into just the right place, so that the one sperm of your Father or my Father would go to the one egg of your or my Mother, is totally astronomical.

It doesn't matter what particular people were born. I was born by 'chance'. If I weren't born someone else would ask the same question.

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved. So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence? Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility. However our knowledge is incomplete, because there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know. Still though, it seems to me like a good argument for there being a creator or higher power of some kind.

I'm not sure what the point is...?

 

[juvenissun]

I myself am agnostic, but do hope for the divinity of Jesus Christ to save my soul from Hell.

Here is the question, when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes? Really what kind of odds would have to play out for that to happen? Because over a fourteen billion year period for all the atoms to be created and put into just the right place, so that the one sperm of your Father or my Father would go to the one egg of your or my Mother, is totally astronomical.

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved. So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence? Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility. However our knowledge is incomplete, because there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know. Still though, it seems to me like a good argument for there being a creator or higher power of some kind.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Sam

You should know that only Christianity explore this question right on the front. Other religions simply skip it or shy away from it.

 

[juvenissun]

It doesn't matter what particular people were born. I was born by 'chance'. If I weren't born someone else would ask the same question.

Your body is. Your soul is not.
Your soul pre-exists your body.

 

[Paradoxum]

Your body is. Your soul is not.
Your soul pre-exists your body.

Really? Evidence?

When was my soul made? And in what sense was my soul creation not chance? Why me and not someone else?

 

[juvenissun]

Really? Evidence?

When was my soul made? And in what sense was my soul creation not chance? Why me and not someone else?

No evidence. But there are theological answers. Take them or not.

Your soul was made together with all other souls during the Week of Creation.
Each soul created has an unique identity, just like you, as a human, has one.
Soul exists forever. It was you, is you, and will be you.

 

[variant]

So what are your thoughts on this?

Odds are impossible to calculate when you don't understand the mechanism of what you are calculating the odds on.

So you can't answer the questions:

What are the odds of a natural universe?

or

What are the odds of a created universe?

or

What are the odds of there being a being that could create something like the universe?

Since I don't understand how these systems work in a comprehensive manner, I can't calculate odds on how likely they are to work one way or another.

You have to know how these things work to calculate their odds of existing or to say one is more likely than the other. Your intuitions aren't good enough, if you don't have a good understanding of the system, you can't calculate it's odds.

 

[Paradoxum]

No evidence. But there are theological answers. Take them or not.

So, some guy said so?

Your soul was made together with all other souls during the Week of Creation.
Each soul created has an unique identity, just like you, as a human, has one.
Soul exists forever. It was you, is you, and will be you.

What did we do before birth? And why me?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Odds are impossible to calculate when you don't understand the mechanism of what you are calculating the odds on.

So you can't answer the questions:

What are the odds of a natural universe?

or

What are the odds of a created universe?

or

What are the odds of there being a being that could create something like the universe?

Since I don't understand how these systems work in a comprehensive manner, I can't calculate odds on how likely they are to work one way or another.

You have to know how these things work to calculate their odds of existing or to say one is more likely than the other. Your intuitions aren't good enough, if you don't have a good understanding of the system, you can't calculate it's odds.

This is a rather important point that many don't understand. They see a number that ridiculously high as a representation of the "odds" of life occurring naturally on Earth and believe it's evidence of this or that.

When one begins to look into how that number is created however, giant holes in this line of reasoning appear. The problem is that such calculations rely upon facts that we don't yet have...so there's a tremendous amount of guesswork that goes into creating that number. If any of the facts and figures that must be guessed are later to be found incorrect...that can dramatically increase the probability that we're debating.

 

[juvenissun]

So, some guy said so?

What did we do before birth? And why me?

You were doing something under God's permission. Everyone could be doing different things.
Why you? Because it was you, and you wanted to be you, as a human, on the earth.

These are logic consequences based on Christian doctrine. If you are patient, you can do the same logic reasoning.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You were doing something under God's permission. Everyone could be doing different things.
Why you? Because it was you, and you wanted to be you, as a human, on the earth.

These are logic consequences based on Christian doctrine. If you are patient, you can do the same logic reasoning.

I don't think the answer of "because I say so" could be described as "logic reasoning".

 

[Radrook]

You said it.

I wasted a full six months struggling against it some ten years ago and am not about to go for a repeat. Gave the people involved the benefit of the doubt only to have them glibly admit at the end of that time period that they had been feigning incomprehension all along simply because they had a strong aversion to anything and everything religious. In short, they were on an atheistic jihad in which they felt fully justified in employing deceitfulness as a rhetorical weapon.

 

[SamuelTP1977]

To me, creation is a mystery, we may have immortal souls and we can hope so, or we are just sophisticated animals, but you still can't rule out the existence of God. Yes, it can't be proven false and is not scientific, but I just do not feel billions of people who believe in a higher power are misguided that is just too many wrong people in this day and age.

Perhaps it is better to not feel so certain about such things and risk making a mistake like giving up on the possibility of Heaven and Hell, and just being wrong with no way to know for sure?

So what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Ana the Ist]

To me, creation is a mystery, we may have immortal souls and we can hope so, or we are just sophisticated animals, but you still can't rule out the existence of God. Yes, it can't be proven false and is not scientific, but I just do not feel billions of people who believe in a higher power are misguided that is just too many wrong people in this day and age.

Perhaps it is better to not feel so certain about such things and risk making a mistake like giving up on the possibility of Heaven and Hell, and just being wrong with no way to know for sure?

So what are your thoughts on this?

There are lots of beliefs that millions of people held throughout the years that you currently don't agree with.

For millennia, people believed that the sun and stars revolved around the earth. Not just a few people...but untold millions. Were they correct? No.

The idea that many people believe in something so it must have some truth to it is a logical fallacy called the argument from popularity.

So in short, yes, everyone can be wrong about something.

 

[devolved]

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved. So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence?

What are the odds of having the super-intelligent perfection existing apart from need for any past development for such being?

Wouldn't you think that such argument is intellectual double-standard? On one hand you are asking what are the odds. On the other hand you are affirming certain existence without asking any similar questions of odds.

 

[JCFantasy23]

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