An important question to ask when considering the existence of God

[SamuelTP1977]

I myself am agnostic, but do hope for the divinity of Jesus Christ to save my soul from Hell.

Here is the question, when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes? Really what kind of odds would have to play out for that to happen? Because over a fourteen billion year period for all the atoms to be created and put into just the right place, so that the one sperm of your Father or my Father would go to the one egg of your or my Mother, is totally astronomical.

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved. So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence? Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility. However our knowledge is incomplete, because there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know. Still though, it seems to me like a good argument for there being a creator or higher power of some kind.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Sam

 

[com7fy8]

Hi, Sam I am Bill, pleased to meet you God bless you howsoever He pleases, through Jesus.

I myself am agnostic, but do hope for the divinity of Jesus Christ to save my soul from Hell.

Well, yes Jesus desires to save you from Hell. Jesus suffered so much, like He did, on that cross . . . partly in order to keep us from going where He knows we could go after we die. I don't think Jesus would have considered it worthwhile to suffer so much, only in order to keep us from going out of conscious existence.

when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes?

I consider that our three main things of this universe are more or less clear > water and air and sunlight. If any of these was not clear, then living beings would not be able to see very well, in order to move around and live. Also, you can easily move through these three things. And these three things are necessary for life. So, they are clear plus so needed in order for there to be living beings and you can easily move through them. God needed to design the structure of water and air molecules and sun rays so that, on our level of perception, they would not keep us from being able to see well. I think the chances of three physical things all being clear enough for vision, but also necessary for life, plus easy to move through, is very little.

So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence?

I offer that Jesus is the door of the existence. The door is not just some chance occurrence.

Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility.

I offer, here, that our Father so loved Jesus, before creation, that He wanted to have many children who are like Jesus; so He made this universe as His place for producing and bringing up children who are pleasing to Him like Jesus is. So, Jesus was the door and motivation, of creation, I would say.

there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know.

And I will just offer that God is in all-control, as well as being all present and all knowing. You can consider how much control He has if He can create an atom and move an electron around the nucleus as many times a second as an electron moves. God is fast so He can move an electron, like this. But His main interest is not only knowing and control and physical creativity, but He delights in Jesus and He is about family caring and sharing love.

However, humans, can be more concerned about material created things; so this has us missing how we could now be sharing with God in His love. And Jesus desires to so share with us, giving us peace and rest but also with personal sharing with Him and other children of God.

Matthew 11:28-30

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I myself am agnostic, but do hope for the divinity of Jesus Christ to save my soul from Hell.

Here is the question, when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes? Really what kind of odds would have to play out for that to happen? Because over a fourteen billion year period for all the atoms to be created and put into just the right place, so that the one sperm of your Father or my Father would go to the one egg of your or my Mother, is totally astronomical.

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved. So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence? Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility. However our knowledge is incomplete, because there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know. Still though, it seems to me like a good argument for there being a creator or higher power of some kind.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Sam

It's a terrible argument.

If you're talking about life on Earth being improbable, then you can equally say that the exact state of any world is improbable. We think our world is "special" because we're here. But it's just another state.

Think of it this way. One of the first times I played poker I was dealt a natural royal flush. The odds of this happening is 0.00000153908%.

But think about this, the odd of getting any particular hand in poker, say the king of hearts, the three of diamonds, the ten of spades and the two of clubs, is less than the probability of getting a royal flush, because there's four ways to get a royal flush. But why do we place importance on the royal flush and not on the hand I described? Because it's somehow "special" to us. But probability doesn't care what we think is special.

In addition, improbable things become almost assured given a large enough sample size. It's been estimates that there's roughly 10 trillion planets in this galaxy alone. It's estimated that there's between 100 and 200 billion galaxies. With a sample size that vast, it would be more improbable there wasn't a planet with life on it.

 

[SamuelTP1977]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. There really is a lot of stars out there, and it could have been just natural processes that made us, but you would have to be omnicient or all knowing. The stars didn't form under our noses, so you can't really say for sure how it happened. You can't rule out there being a creator and know you are right.

Hang in there,

Sam

 

[quatona]

I myself am agnostic, but do hope for the divinity of Jesus Christ to save my soul from Hell.

Here is the question, when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes?

For fairness´ sake you should also ask the question "What kind of odds would have to play out for there being a creator, and for this creator creating the universe exactly like it is?".

Really what kind of odds would have to play out for that to happen? Because over a fourteen billion year period for all the atoms to be created and put into just the right place, so that the one sperm of your Father or my Father would go to the one egg of your or my Mother, is totally astronomical.

As long as we don´t assume a result to be intended, there´s nothing remarkable about a rare result.

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved.

I fail to see how this follows.

So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence? Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility.

I´m not even convinced that there are other possibilities - i.e. that things could be different than they are.

However our knowledge is incomplete, because there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know.

We can imagine countless things and entities - but that´s not really helpful in determining whether it´s reasonable to assume that they exist.

Still though, it seems to me like a good argument for there being a creator or higher power of some kind.

It isn´t a better argument than saying "The odds for this raindrop to hit my nose was astromically low. There must be a plan behind it."

 

[Eudaimonist]

There really is a lot of stars out there, and it could have been just natural processes that made us, but you would have to be omnicient or all knowing. The stars didn't form under our noses, so you can't really say for sure how it happened. You can't rule out there being a creator and know you are right.

The problem is: you haven't ruled one in. Your argument is really just an argument from ignorance.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[SamuelTP1977]

For fairness´ sake you should also ask the question "What kind of odds would have to play out for there being a creator, and for this creator creating the universe exactly like it is?".

As long as we don´t assume a result to be intended, there´s nothing remarkable about a rare result.


I fail to see how this follows.

I´m not even convinced that there are other possibilities - i.e. that things could be different than they are.

We can imagine countless things and entities - but that´s not really helpful in determining whether it´s reasonable to assume that they exist.

It isn´t a better argument than saying "The odds for this raindrop to hit my nose was astromically low. There must be a plan behind it."

When you say "there is nothing remarkable about a rare result" and to say it is just like that, I disagree. You still can't rule out the existence of God who is omnipresent. I think existence is very remarkable even if it wasn't intended. I count myself lucky to be alive and thankful to have this chance to live a wonderful life as best as I can see fit, with the help of my higher power.

I feel that God did use randomness to create us and we could have never existed if it weren't for the good fortune of many events to play out in our favor. Perhaps God is coming to life, alive in our very DNA aware of the dangers of over population and Global warming, and will save us from extinction? I do hope so, either way the kind of odds that have played out by the creator's will, I believe, it is so astronomical and so significant, this is like going to Vegas and bankrupting the casinos over and over again just by being super duper lucky. That is getting really lucky if you ask me.

All these theists who do believe in a higher power, of one form or another, must have some reason. It is possible to have a good well thought out belief in a higher power. I think Christ came back from the dead, I know I don't know that, but the story in the new testament which is supported by the old testament, I think it happened. I wasn't there, but I do hope for the resurrection on Judgment day.

Hang in there and thanks for sharing.

Sam

 

[KCfromNC]

When you say "there is nothing remarkable about a rare result" and to say it is just like that, I disagree. You still can't rule out the existence of God who is omnipresent.

Yes, gods are typically defined in ways which make them untestable and unable to be verified. That should make you suspicious. Would you buy a car without seeing the title? Or a house without the legal documentation that the seller can sell it? I mean sure, you can't rule out the existence of that paperwork but would you actually take it on faith?

I wouldn't, especially if the seller said that the title was supernatural and I had to believe before I could see it. That's nature's way of telling you to run in the other direction. And yet for some reason no one bats an eye when the same "logic" is used for gods.

All these theists who do believe in a higher power, of one form or another, must have some reason. It is possible to have a good well thought out belief in a higher power.

You're making a jump from a reason to a good reason here. Why? And how does that fit with the most likely predictor for religious belief being the religious beliefs of one's parents? Seems more like choosing which sports team to root for than than sort of well thought out belief.

 

[quatona]

When you say "there is nothing remarkable about a rare result" and to say it is just like that, I disagree. You still can't rule out the existence of God who is omnipresent.

Which is totally irrelevant for the point I made.

I think existence is very remarkable even if it wasn't intended. I count myself lucky to be alive and thankful to have this chance to live a wonderful life as best as I can see fit, with the help of my higher power.

Which is also completely irrelevant for the point I made. If I win the lottery, that´s a very improbable result and very significant to me - the fact wouldn´t point towards a hidden director behind the scenes, though.

I feel that God did use randomness to create us and we could have never existed if it weren't for the good fortune of many events to play out in our favor. Perhaps God is coming to life, alive in our very DNA aware of the dangers of over population and Global warming, and will save us from extinction? I do hope so, either way the kind of odds that have played out by the creator's will, I believe, it is so astronomical and so significant, this is like going to Vegas and bankrupting the casinos over and over again just by being super duper lucky. That is getting really lucky if you ask me.

Yeah, but you know: In the OP you talked about having an "argument" - here you talk about your feelings (which is fine, but something completely different).

All these theists who do believe in a higher power, of one form or another, must have some reason.

Sure, but the reason isn´t necessarily that those higher powers exist out there.

It is possible to have a good well thought out belief in a higher power.

Sure - it´s also possible to write a good well thought out book of fiction.

I think Christ came back from the dead, I know I don't know that, but the story in the new testament which is supported by the old testament, I think it happened. I wasn't there, but I do hope for the resurrection on Judgment day.

Again: In the OP you made it sound like this was about rational arguments, not about hopes and feelings.

 

[stevenfrancis]

I myself am agnostic, but do hope for the divinity of Jesus Christ to save my soul from Hell.

Here is the question, when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes? Really what kind of odds would have to play out for that to happen? Because over a fourteen billion year period for all the atoms to be created and put into just the right place, so that the one sperm of your Father or my Father would go to the one egg of your or my Mother, is totally astronomical.

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved. So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence? Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility. However our knowledge is incomplete, because there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know. Still though, it seems to me like a good argument for there being a creator or higher power of some kind.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Sam

No how many other doors, universes, multi-verses, semi-eternal folds in space, black holes, worm holes, etc., in the end, it always comes back to God the Father creating everything out of nothing through Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit. God spoke His Word, (The Son), and what wasn't......now was. How that ends up looking to the science only scientism crowd as they learn more about the measurments and light and quarks and particles etc.?? Who knows. I already know what I NEED to know. Whatever descriptions of what we already know will be nice little mind pictures to put in our head to go with the revealed divinity. I have no problem with it in any way.

 

[HitchSlap]

When you say "there is nothing remarkable about a rare result" and to say it is just like that, I disagree. You still can't rule out the existence of God who is omnipresent. I think existence is very remarkable even if it wasn't intended. I count myself lucky to be alive and thankful to have this chance to live a wonderful life as best as I can see fit, with the help of my higher power.

I feel that God did use randomness to create us and we could have never existed if it weren't for the good fortune of many events to play out in our favor. Perhaps God is coming to life, alive in our very DNA aware of the dangers of over population and Global warming, and will save us from extinction? I do hope so, either way the kind of odds that have played out by the creator's will, I believe, it is so astronomical and so significant, this is like going to Vegas and bankrupting the casinos over and over again just by being super duper lucky. That is getting really lucky if you ask me.

All these theists who do believe in a higher power, of one form or another, must have some reason. It is possible to have a good well thought out belief in a higher power. I think Christ came back from the dead, I know I don't know that, but the story in the new testament which is supported by the old testament, I think it happened. I wasn't there, but I do hope for the resurrection on Judgment day.

Hang in there and thanks for sharing.

Sam

There are many dying and rising mythotypes. Why did you pick the Jesus one as more acceptable than the others?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. There really is a lot of stars out there, and it could have been just natural processes that made us, but you would have to be omnicient or all knowing. The stars didn't form under our noses, so you can't really say for sure how it happened. You can't rule out there being a creator and know you are right.

Hang in there,

Sam

I'm not positing the non existence of a diety. However, Christians are positing the existence of a diety. Which puts the burden of proof on them, which means the necessity of evidence. And again, the use of the improbability of the state is this world as evidence is a bad argument.

 

[SamuelTP1977]

There are many dying and rising mythotypes. Why did you pick the Jesus one as more acceptable than the others?

I live in the USA a christian nation open to all faiths and the nonreligious mostly anyways. If I lived in Saudi Arabia then I would go with Islam, or India then it would be Hindu. I feel by going to church or a mosque or a temple a person can maintain hope in a loving God who is a fair judge. However a person has to go to a local religious institution to learn about the possibility of an after life, and like KC from NC said it is somewhat like rooting for your local sports team, than a well thought out belief. However I do believe sincerely there is just too much you can't explain, namely if we are nothing more than sophisticated animals, then we got really lucky. So, I am thankful for the Bible, religion and the hope for an after life. I think what the Bible is describing is something wondrous that has occurred and I may not have a good argument for believing such an event has occurred, after all, Jesus would have to float down from heaven and make religious knowledge official.

However I do have my hopes and feelings for a better life to come for planet Earth. A person can have a well thought out belief in a higher power, but still it may not be right. However I really believe there is a Heaven and a Hell, and Jesus has our backs in the after life. Keep hope alive and take it with a grain of salt. After all, people have had weird personal experiences
that can't easily be explained, such as miraculous healing of the sick. Like for myself I suffer from Bipolar Disorder but I swear the medicine I take is like a miracle, and I feel like a new man with the medicine. Yes, I will have to take medicine for a long time, but I feel like I can stay out of the hospital, thank God.

Thanks for sharing everyone,

Sam

 

[com7fy8]

"What kind of odds would have to play out for there being a creator, and for this creator creating the universe exactly like it is?".

And what are the odds that physical-only existence would produce humans who would think of the idea that there is a non-physical Creator?

 

[Dave RP]

I myself am agnostic, but do hope for the divinity of Jesus Christ to save my soul from Hell.

Here is the question, when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes? Really what kind of odds would have to play out for that to happen? Because over a fourteen billion year period for all the atoms to be created and put into just the right place, so that the one sperm of your Father or my Father would go to the one egg of your or my Mother, is totally astronomical.

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved. So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence? Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility. However our knowledge is incomplete, because there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know. Still though, it seems to me like a good argument for there being a creator or higher power of some kind.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Sam

I look at it like this.

The odds on our atoms just happening to have got together like this at this time are infinitesimally small, but that implies that somehow it was always intended that we would end up with mine and yours and everyone else's atoms all at this place at this time having this conversation. In fact after 14 billion years, with a staggeringly colossal number of individual steps the universe has evolved in such a manner that on one planet at least (maybe others, we simply don't know) out of billions of planets in the universe a being exists who can make technology and can think about these matters, and discuss them on an electronic forum.

The odds are very small that intelligent life will evolve on any given planet, but with billions of planets available it has happened, and here we are. We couldn't be having this conversation on a planet where intelligent life didn't evolve.

Turn the question around, what are the odds that a "creator", God or whatever you call it spontaneously comes into being and decides to create the universe in all its colossal hugeness, and keeps it going for 14 billion years just so that for 2,000 years (something like 0.00002% of the age of the cosmos) his creation will behave in a certain way waiting for his second coming.

Where did then creator come from, who made him, and what are the odds of him being in existence?

Now of course it's perfectly fair to say "I don't know where he came from but I know he exists and I don't care about the odds" in the same way I say "I don't now how the universe was created but it was by some unexplained natural process and I don't care about the odds"

Faith is faith and you cannot justify it by odds, ditto lack of faith.

 

[Eudaimonist]

And what are the odds that physical-only existence would produce humans who would think of the idea that there is a non-physical Creator?

Pretty good, I'd say.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[HitchSlap]

And what are the odds that physical-only existence would produce humans who would think of the idea that there is a non-physical Creator?

I don't know, but it's happened at least once.

 

[ananda]

I myself am agnostic, but do hope for the divinity of Jesus Christ to save my soul from Hell.

Here is the question, when looking at creation such as the Earth the Water and studying science, I really have to ask myself what kind of odds would have to play out for all of creation to come into existence by only natural processes? Really what kind of odds would have to play out for that to happen? Because over a fourteen billion year period for all the atoms to be created and put into just the right place, so that the one sperm of your Father or my Father would go to the one egg of your or my Mother, is totally astronomical.

Yes it is a circular argument to say a creator made it, but if it were only natural processes to make it then there is randomness involved. So, could existence be like looking at quadrillions and quadrillions of doors and opening the one door that leads to existence? Sure all the other doors you don't even know what they could lead to, and you only get to know about one door, one possibility. However our knowledge is incomplete, because there could be a creator, who is even omnipresent or not we just don't know. Still though, it seems to me like a good argument for there being a creator or higher power of some kind.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Sam

If the All (aka "Creator") is truly infinite, then all creation is one with it - otherwise the All cannot be said to be the "All". By nature of its infinite-ness, all possibilities are realized in its essence. That is to say, every possible thing that can be imagined exists within the All, in every possible permutation, in a multiverse of infinite universes. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to say that this particular universe played out in the way it is - but not with intent or a purpose behind its construction.

 

[Dave RP]

And what are the odds that physical-only existence would produce humans who would think of the idea that there is a non-physical Creator?

Very very slim, but given we have had 14 billion years and billions of planets, it's not all together shocking that it has happened at least once.

 

[quatona]

And what are the odds that physical-only existence would produce humans who would think of the idea that there is a non-physical Creator?

About the same as the odds that it would produce humans who would think that a black cat crossing the street from left to right is a bad omen?