An Experiment?

[lithium.]

that there are questions that we can not answer.

Or they're questions that we can't answer YET.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Warrior FC
I believe Stormy is trying to get straight answers here, and finding none!

.... And *Warrior says smiling* "we are aliens, this world is not our home!"

True.

We are all just passing through.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Stormy
God has all the answers.

I think you mean that there are questions that we can not answer.

There can also be questions which simply don't make any sense. Why is my cat yellow? He's *not* yellow, so there's no answer.

I do agree that there are questions we cannot answer. The thing is, my belief in an answer to "why are we here" does not imply that it's true; that may be one of the questions we can never answer, in which case, my answer is *wrong* - but that can be true even if no one can offer me a better answer.

So, while you and I may choose to believe in God, I don't think "you can't explain why the universe is here without invoking God" is a very good argument for Him; it just turns God into a way of saying "I can't explain this". I don't like that; I'd rather admit that I don't know how the universe came to be, and work things out in other ways.

Having done that, I ended up concluding that there is a God, and, *given* that I believe in Him, it seems reasonable to me to guess that He made this all. However, make no mistake; I still reject the first cause argument as unpersuasive. I believe God created things because I already believe in God, rather than believing in God because I need some kind of answer to the question "how did we get here". I don't think God's existance should rest on our uncertainty.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by seebs
So, while you and I may choose to believe in God, I don't think "you can't explain why the universe is here without invoking God" is a very good argument for Him; it just turns God into a way of saying "I can't explain this". I don't like that; I'd rather admit that I don't know how the universe came to be, and work things out in other ways.

You are assuming that my reason to be here is to save someone... or maybe everyone ?

No. There is only one Saviour and its not me.

I do not debate. I discuss. I am here for me. I want to understand how others think.

I do however pray that God will speak to their hearts.

I have become really fond of many of these heathens.

 

[lithium.]

I have become really fond of many of these heathens.

 

[seebs]

Well, having been agnostic for a while in the past, I can sort of help. Basically, the key thing is a willingness to just say "I don't know why this is the way it is, but I will not accept a theory just to have an answer, I want the theory to fit the data and help me understand".

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by seebs
"I don't know why this is the way it is, but I will not accept a theory just to have an answer, I want the theory to fit the data and help me understand".

I agree, and for me, God is the answer to the how and why of creation. But then there are people, such as Seesaw, who will not consider the possibility of God.

He states..

That if the Big Bang Theory and the Evolution Theory prove to be fact, then that means, God is not needed.

I do not understand his logic. IMO The equation that he has drawn is far from accurate. I am only asking that such people explain themselves the same as they ask that we explain our beliefs.

 

[lithium.]

Stormy:


That if the Big Bang Theory and the Evolution Theory prove to be fact, then that means, God is not needed.


seesaw:

I say there is no need for god is because there isn't a need for an afterlife. You life, and die, why should there be an afterlife. If evolution is true then what was god doing playing around or something for millions of years. Christians say that god is perfect well if he is perfect there was no reason to create other species of man. There are just so many things that make me believe that there is no reason that there is or should be a god, or gods.

You might think my logic is weird, but that's fine with me.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by seesaw
I say there is no need for god is because there isn't a need for a afterlife. You life, and die, why should there be a afterlife. If evolution is true, then what was god doing, playing around, or something for millions of years. Christians say that god is perfect well if he is perfect there was no reason to create other speices of man. There is just so much things that make me believe that there is no reason that there is or should be a god, or gods.

You might think my logic is weird, but that's fine with me.

You do not have to believe in an afterlife, nor will anyone ever know the all of God.

Big Bang and Evolution does not eliminate God.

Can't you see that these are mere tools.

Finding the tools does not eliminate the need for cause.

It is people, with ideas such as yours, that separate and confuse the real advances that man has made to understand.

Just as those of Faith, that refuse to accept scientific facts, only keep themselves, from coming closer in the revelation of God's creation.

The Truth will remain the same. It is not contingent upon our beliefs. We are the ones who must grow and change.

We must open our eyes to knowledge and truth. We must not instead be predisposed to object to that which does not suit our own sense of reality.

 

[lithium.]

Stormy:


Big Bang and Evolution does not eliminate God.

Can't you see that these are mere tools.


seesaw:

I know that the big bang theory, and evolution theory doesn't eliminate god, but I see no reason at all to say god started the big bang. And god used evolution as a tool. Just cause we don't know how it happened doesn't mean we won't.

Stormy:


It is people, with ideas such as yours, that separate and confuse the real advances that man has made to understand.


seesaw:

Ideas such as mine. I have never confused the advances of man. I don't really understand what you mean.

Stormy:


The Truth will remain the same. It is not contingent upon our beliefs. We are the ones who must grow and change.


seesaw:

But which truth? We will always continue to grow, and change. But who decides what the truth is that remains the same.

 

[seebs]

I think you're talking past each other a bit.

I don't think seesaw's claim is that every possible reason to believe in God is negated if the big bang theory (and so on) is true. I think his claim is that, if we have a perfectly good explanation for how things came to be, we don't need another one.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by seebs
I think you're talking past each other a bit.

I don't think seesaw's claim is that every possible reason to believe in God is negated if the big bang theory (and so on) is true. I think his claim is that, if we have a perfectly good explanation for how things came to be, we don't need another one.

Seebs: Are you saying that Science has a perfectly good explanation of how things came to be?

Please enlighten me.

Explain the how of the Big Bang.

Explain the start of matter that lives.

Explain also the beauty of it all.


There was so much beauty before man began his progress.

I wonder did we truly progress at all?

 

[Stormy]

Hi Jerry

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Stormy
Seebs: Are you saying that Science has a perfectly good explanation of how things came to be?

I'm saying that "I don't know" is a better explanation than "I didn't know, so I made up this story".

Science has explanations for bits and pieces of the way things came to be. These explanations do not cover everything, but where we have them, they are MUCH more useful than the explanations they replaced.

When we admitted that we didn't know for sure that lightning was the wrath of anthropomorphic spirits, but might in fact be a physical force, we learned how it ran, and learned to protect ourselves from it a bit; we also learned to create heat and light in the bitterness of winter, with less risk of fire.

When we admitted that the disease-spirit theory was lacking, we eventually found a better one, and through the germ theory of disease we get medicines which take the life-threatening illnesses of two hundred years ago and turn them into barely-remembered childhood ailments.

The theory of evolution, and the big bang theory, offer useful results in physics and biology. They seem to be of the same sort.

As to the most basic, underlying, "why is it like this", no, science doesn't answer that - indeed, it's pretty much a meaningless question in scientific terms.

However, the frank admission that we do not know is a better answer than a possibly false answer accepted only to fill in a gap.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by seebs
I'm saying that "I don't know" is a better explanation than "I didn't know, so I made up this story".

Science has explanations for bits and pieces of the way things came to be. These explanations do not cover everything, but where we have them, they are MUCH more useful than the explanations they replaced.

However, the frank admission that we do not know is a better answer than a possibly false answer accepted only to fill in a gap.

Exactly!

But you are wrong in believing that it is only those of Faith who fill in the gaps.

Many Atheist do not even acknowledge that these gaps exist.

I wonder if any of this blame could be placed upon Science.

In trying to appear knowledgeable, do they also ignore the indication that there was an intelligence?

I know... I know...

Science does not deal in the Supernatural. At least that is what they claim. But in denying his worth, they are making a statement.

I guess what this all boils down to...

I would have no objection to man sharing his acquired knowledge in the Schools. The subject of evolution could be taught... but only if it were spoken in all honestly. If the lines were clearly drawn between fact and theory and the gaps were left open for all to ponder.


The fact is though, that this is not our way.

The other day on another thread I was asking about migration. I was only given a partial answer to my questions. One poster stepped in to tell me how man was able to arrive in North America from South America. It seems that because of the cold and ice a bridge had formed that our ancestors were able to walk upon. Forgiven me, I forgot the name for this bridge.

But after a moment of research I was surprised to discover that this bridge was a phantom. It too was theory. However it was told to me as fact.

It was even given a proper name to add to its credibility.

 

[Humanista]

Originally posted by Stormy
Explain also the beauty of it all.


There was so much beauty before man began his progress.

I wonder did we truly progress at all?

"Beauty" is in the eye of the beholder, remember? Explaining beauty starts with why we humans find something "beautiful", which has to do with balance and harmony. Humans find the face of other humans "beautiful " when they are symmetrical and have certain physical features which indicate health and fertility. It's an evolutionary advantage to seek a healthy fertile partner. Faces which resemble babies also inspire affection and attraction--it's so parents will bond with their children. It's why we love the short noses and big eyes of puppies. Beautiful music has harmony and order.

But I don't think you are looking for this sort of "explanation" of beauty. You want a reason WHY beauty exists. This is something of a nonsense question. It's like asking for a philosophical explanation for this leaf falling off the tree before another leaf. You can ask why about things, but somethimes there IS no cosmic reason. It just is.

 

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by Stormy
Hi Jerry

 

Hi!! Long time no see.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Humanista
You can ask why about things, but somethimes there IS no cosmic reason. It just is.

God says " I am "


I refuse to believe that anything... just is.

IMO There are reason to everything.

 

[Jerry Smith]

God says " I am "


I refuse to believe that anything... just is.

IMO There are reason to everything.

So, if God couldn't provide you with an answer that you could understand about exactly why "He Is", then you would still be dissatisfied until you found an explanation for why "He Is"?

 

[Stormy]

Do not think for a moment that I am at all satisfied.

I want to know everything.

I have set impossible goals that I intend to meet.