An Example?

[Reformationist]

Hello everyone.

As is often the case, I was recently informed that man has "free will." Now, we have all probably had more discussions on this topic than we thought possible so I want to assure you that I do not intend for this to be the same type of discussion. I am truly interested in your response and so I simply ask that, for the purpose of actually discussing this topic, any who participate keep their comments controlled.

There is, for me at least, a bit of mystery surrounding the claim that man has "free will." This is in part due to the various ways in which people employ that claim.

So, in light of the fact that there may be differences in how people define "free will," I suggest that on your initial response each participant define the manner in which they understand "free will." I will start:

I believe man's will is free only to the extent that he will choose that which he most desires at the moment of choice. In fact, as a rational creature, he must choose according to his greatest desire or inclination at the moment of choice.

Now, such a claim is essential to my understanding of the desparity between the "freedom" of the will of unregenerate man vice regenerate man. I do not believe that pleasing God is ever the greatest desire of unregenerate man, therefore, it is never the driving motivation for anything he does. It is my desire that we discuss the influence that our desires hold over our will and, specifically, how our desires regulate, and even limit, our ability to choose "freely."

To facilitate my point, I would ask any who participate to think of a time when they made a choice to do something they were unwilling to do. I ask for such an example because I do not believe man is capable of choosing to do that which he is unwilling to do. Now, this may seem like a given to some of you, but it is this very contention that I am regularly told is the driving force in man's "acceptance of Christ." I am told, "Man's will is inherently free to serve and obey God in righteousness, he often just isn't willing to do so." That, to me, seems like an oxymoron, "He's able but not willing."

I would say that a person's unwillingness to do something effectively negates his ability to do it.

If you disagree with that, please provide an example of a time when you chose to do something you were unwilling to do followed by your reason for doing it.

Thank you for your participation.

God bless

 

[AshenK]

Hello everyone.

As is often the case, I was recently informed that man has "free will." Now, we have all probably had more discussions on this topic than we thought possible so I want to assure you that I do not intend for this to be the same type of discussion. I am truly interested in your response and so I simply ask that, for the purpose of actually discussing this topic, any who participate keep their comments controlled.

There is, for me at least, a bit of mystery surrounding the claim that man has "free will." This is in part due to the various ways in which people employ that claim.

So, in light of the fact that there may be differences in how people define "free will," I suggest that on your initial response each participant define the manner in which they understand "free will." I will start:

I believe man's will is free only to the extent that he will choose that which he most desires at the moment of choice. In fact, as a rational creature, he must choose according to his greatest desire or inclination at the moment of choice.

Now, such a claim is essential to my understanding of the desparity between the "freedom" of the will of unregenerate man vice regenerate man. I do not believe that pleasing God is ever the greatest desire of unregenerate man, therefore, it is never the driving motivation for anything he does. It is my desire that we discuss the influence that our desires hold over our will and, specifically, how our desires regulate, and even limit, our ability to choose "freely."

To facilitate my point, I would ask any who participate to think of a time when they made a choice to do something they were unwilling to do. I ask for such an example because I do not believe man is capable of choosing to do that which he is unwilling to do. Now, this may seem like a given to some of you, but it is this very contention that I am regularly told is the driving force in man's "acceptance of Christ." I am told, "Man's will is inherently free to serve and obey God in righteousness, he often just isn't willing to do so." That, to me, seems like an oxymoron, "He's able but not willing."

I would say that a person's unwillingness to do something effectively negates his ability to do it.

If you disagree with that, please provide an example of a time when you chose to do something you were unwilling to do followed by your reason for doing it.

Thank you for your participation.

God bless

God gave man authority on this earth and told us to subdue it. (Genesis 1:28) Man gave authority to satan in the garden, and came under the curse, that's why Jesus calls Satan the prince of this world. Jesus came in the form of a man through the covenant of abraham and redeemed (or restored authority) to mankind.

God's will won't come to pass simply because He wants it to. We have to let Him work through us. God forces nothing on us, and only has good things in store for us.

 

[Forest]

...........I believe man's will is free only to the extent that he will choose that which he most desires at the moment of choice. In fact, as a rational creature, he must choose according to his greatest desire or inclination at the moment of choice.

I don't quite understand that. I often choose to do what needs to be done rather than what I would desire to do. I would also admit that some of my choices are based on emtional rather than rational thought.

Now, such a claim is essential to my understanding of the desparity between the "freedom" of the will of unregenerate man vice regenerate man. I do not believe that pleasing God is ever the greatest desire of unregenerate man, therefore, it is never the driving motivation for anything he does. It is my desire that we discuss the influence that our desires hold over our will and, specifically, how our desires regulate, and even limit, our ability to choose "freely."

Are you talking about what Paul was saying here?...
[bible]Romans 7:21[/bible]

To facilitate my point, I would ask any who participate to think of a time when they made a choice to do something they were unwilling to do. I ask for such an example because I do not believe man is capable of choosing to do that which he is unwilling to do. Now, this may seem like a given to some of you, but it is this very contention that I am regularly told is the driving force in man's "acceptance of Christ." I am told, "Man's will is inherently free to serve and obey God in righteousness, he often just isn't willing to do so." That, to me, seems like an oxymoron, "He's able but not willing."

I was 100% unwilling to take speach class, until they told me I wouldn't graduate.

Didn't I still have the ability to choose to take the class, or not?

God bless

Amen.

 

[Reformationist]

God gave man authority on this earth and told us to subdue it. (Genesis 1:28) Man gave authority to satan in the garden, and came under the curse, that's why Jesus calls Satan the prince of this world. Jesus came in the form of a man through the covenant of abraham and redeemed (or restored authority) to mankind.

God's will won't come to pass simply because He wants it to. We have to let Him work through us. God forces nothing on us, and only has good things in store for us.

For future respondents, this is how I'd rather you DON'T reply. I was very clear in what I was asking. If I wasn't, please ask for clarification. I'd rather this not go off on a tangent.

AshenK, if you are interested in discussing the issues you address in your post, please start a thread on it. I would ask that you don't turn this into a topic that I did not ask about.

Thank you for your consideration.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I don't quite understand that. I often choose to do what needs to be done rather than what I would desire to do.

Can you give me an example as well as your reason for choosing to do it?

I would also admit that some of my choices are based on emtional rather than rational thought.

Can you give an example of such a choice?

Are you talking about what Paul was saying here?...

Not at this point. If you feel that Scripture backs up your position then I encourage you to post it. Right now I'm just asking if anyone has a practical example of a time when they chose to do something that was not their greatest desire, or something that they were unwilling to do.

I was 100% unwilling to take speach class, until they told me I wouldn't graduate.

And this simply proves my point. You were unwilling to do something until not taking the class proved less of a desire than not graduating. So, in this scenario, you had a greater desire to graduate than you had to avoid speech class. Wouldn't you say?

Didn't I still have the ability to choose to take the class, or not?

It seems to me that that depends on what you desired more, i.e., avoiding speech class or graduating. It seems, as I said, that your desire to graduate was greater than your desire to avoid speech class, thereby rendering you unable to refrain from taking speech class. Had your desire to avoid taking a graduation requirement been greater than your desire to graduate you would have, obviously, chosen to not take speech class.

Do you agree?

God bless

 

[awildflowerlady]

"Man's will is inherently free to serve and obey God in righteousness, he often just isn't willing to do so."

I believe I can give you a good example of this.

When I married, some 16 years ago, I never ONCE had ANY thoughts of having children.

I never babysat nor did I seek out the baby found in the room full of people.

Within the first year of marriage I was pregnant, a "pill baby". I did not want to be, however I would not murder - so I had the baby.

From the get go I was not thrilled about it, but did it and to the best of my ability. Two years later, on the heels of a mis-carriage (again unplanned) I was pregnant with son #2. As with the first, it was something I was not thrilled about, but have made the absolute best of the situation.

I have grown to dearly love my children BUT I am VERY glad they are no longer babies, pre-teens now. I have the hardest time still, enjoying babies, but I will put on a happy face, gather up as much gumption as I can muster and give a helping hand to anyone with a baby that needs the assistance. I still do not seek out babies in crowded rooms and I will be happiest to hand off a baby to someone else's lap as soon as possible.

I would have to say that my free will to NOT have children was effected - however I would need to condition that by including that I could have NOT participated in sex or used six methods of BC at one time to prevent it from happening.

 

[AshenK]

For future respondents, this is how I'd rather you DON'T reply. I was very clear in what I was asking. If I wasn't, please ask for clarification. I'd rather this not go off on a tangent.

AshenK, if you are interested in discussing the issues you address in your post, please start a thread on it. I would ask that you don't turn this into a topic that I did not ask about.

Thank you for your consideration.

God bless

Sorry. I wasn't clear on what you said, so I was explaining the reason behind man's completely free will.

 

[Forest]

Can you give me an example as well as your reason for choosing to do it?

Many people go to work, even though they would rather not. The reason would be to keep the job.

Can you give an example of such a choice?

Getting mad at my boss and quitting my job.

And this simply proves my point. You were unwilling to do something until not taking the class proved less of a desire than not graduating. So, in this scenario, you had a greater desire to graduate than you had to avoid speech class. Wouldn't you say?

Yes, but how does that negate the ability to choose to take the other route?

Also, what is the distinction between asking...

I did something I was unwilling to do.
I did something that was impossible to do.

I'm not sure that the question isn't an oxymoron.

 

[Reformationist]

I believe I can give you a good example of this.

When I married, some 16 years ago, I never ONCE had ANY thoughts of having children.

I never babysat nor did I seek out the baby found in the room full of people.

Within the first year of marriage I was pregnant, a "pill baby". I did not want to be, however I would not murder - so I had the baby.

From the get go I was not thrilled about it, but did it and to the best of my ability. Two years later, on the heels of a mis-carriage (again unplanned) I was pregnant with son #2. As with the first, it was something I was not thrilled about, but have made the absolute best of the situation.

I have grown to dearly love my children BUT I am VERY glad they are no longer babies, pre-teens now. I have the hardest time still, enjoying babies, but I will put on a happy face, gather up as much gumption as I can muster and give a helping hand to anyone with a baby that needs the assistance. I still do not seek out babies in crowded rooms and I will be happiest to hand off a baby to someone else's lap as soon as possible.

I would have to say that my free will to NOT have children was effected - however I would need to condition that by including that I could have NOT participated in sex or used six methods of BC at one time to prevent it from happening.

Awildflowerlady, first, thank you for your response. I'm a bit confused though. I don't see any mention of something you chose to do that you were unwilling to do. You do mention that you'd rather have not been pregnant but you still chose to go ahead with the pregnancy instead of murdering your child. This, to me, seems a clear example of my position. You desire to not be pregnant paled in comparison to you desire to refrain from murder. Such a position I completely agree with but, as I said, it seems to only enforce my position.

At the end of your post you state, "My free will to not have children was effected - however I would need to condition that by including that I could have not participated in sex or used six methods of BC at one time to prevent it from happening." This, to me, seems to be an admission that your "free will to not have children" was, in fact, not affected by your desire to not have children. It seems as if you had a greater desire to engage in sexual relations, even at the cost of getting pregnant (something you desired not to happen), that you chose according to your greatest desire. That is, again, an example of my position.

Do you see what I'm saying or was that confusing?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Sorry. I wasn't clear on what you said, so I was explaining the reason behind man's completely free will.

First, I appreciate the apology and will tell you that my response was merely to keep the discussion on track. I believe that the points that you made would make for a good discussion. I just didn't want that discussion to happen here. Now, at the risk of doing exactly what I requested others not do, I will simply state that I don't see anything in your post which supports the idea that man's will is completely free. Sorry but maybe I am just not understanding how your post showed that.

God bless

 

[Asaph]

Reformationist, brother, I have been brought to the very place you are refering to, and I only know I was there because I blew it.

And as I stood there, suddenly in my face was my own horrid actuality.

Oh my God. That hurts so much I'm not even sure I'm going to post it!


Asaph

 

[Reformationist]

Many people go to work, even though they would rather not. The reason would be to keep the job.

So, in truth, they have a greater desire to keep their job than not go to work, wouldn't you say?

Getting mad at my boss and quitting my job.

In that scenario you have the option to tell your boss how you feel or bite your tongue. Clearly, you would have a greater desire to tell your boss how you feel than hold your peace. You may think better of it later, as is often the case when we are calm. However, at the moment you choose to get mad at your boss and quit, you had a greater desire to do that than control yourself and retain your job.

Yes, but how does that negate the ability to choose to take the other route?

Simply because it is our nature to seek that which we most desire. Man is a desire driven creature. This is why sinful desires exert such influence over the lives of all people, even Christians. Sin is born of the desires of man's heart (seat of reason). When man's greatest desire is to sin, he sins. I have never heard of a single instance of someone choosing to obey the Lord when they had a greater desire to disobey. It may not seem a fair question but it is definitely an important one if we wish to understand why we choose in the manner that we do. Our choices are not ambiguous ones. When we resist the devil its not because we don't ever have the desire to sin. If we had no desire to sin then resisting the devil would be rather simple, don't you think? The reason anyone resists the impulses of their sinful flesh is because the desire to please God reigns stronger.

Also, what is the distinction between asking...

I did something I was unwilling to do.
I did something that was impossible to do.

The question is not logical. If you did it then it wasn't impossible. If it's impossible, you cannot do it.

My position is that, if a person is unwilling to do something, their unwillingness makes it impossible for them to do. Now, we may not enjoy doing something. In a moment of clarity we may be able to say, "Well, I don't want to sin." Regardless, when we are tempted to sin, the reason we may not is because we have a greater desire to obey God. If that is not the case, then we submit to our flesh and sin. It is for this very reason that we are encouraged to nurture our faith, that it be the force that drives us when we are tempted.

I'm not sure that the question isn't an oxymoron.

I don't know why you think it would be an oxymoron. Can you explain?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Reformationist, brother, I have been brought to the very place you are refering to, and I only know I was there because I blew it.

And as I stood there, suddenly in my face was my own horrid actuality.

Oh my God. That hurts so much I'm not even sure I'm going to post it!


Asaph

Well, it seems you are clearly distraught over whatever happened and I pray that the Lord gives you peace my brother, but, I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

In light of something that Forest said, I would just like to offer some food for thought. He mentioned that his choices may be emotional in nature rather than rational. The problem with such a claim, if one is using it to prove the freedom of man's will, is that it is actually contrary to that position. If someone's will controlled by one's emotions then one's will is not actually free, at least not in the way that the phrase, "free will," is often employed. Either your will is truly free or it is influenced to the degree that it is controlled. The Apostle Paul touches upon this incongruity a number of times. For instance, instead of proclaiming the freedom of man's will, he acknowledges that we are slaves to whatever we submit to:

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

God bless

 

[AshenK]

Discard

 

[Reformationist]

Definitely wouldn't want my thread going off-topic.

I was trying to say that man's free will, started at the garden. When God gave us authority (dominion) He gave us the free will to do as we choose. Then, I was also trying to say that we can choose to let God work in our lives, or choose to let Him not work.

See, I don't think God restricts us in away or forces anything upon us. I believe we have a completely free will.

Man!!! It's posts like that that make me itch to violate my own thread request to stay on topic!!

Well, maybe some other time AK.

So, on topic, can you think of an example of a time that your will was "completely free" to do something you were unwilling to do? Or a time when you acted contrary to your greatest desire?

God bless

 

[Asaph]

Well, it seems you are clearly distraught over whatever happened and I pray that the Lord gives you peace my brother, but, I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.

God bless

Thank you

Asaph

 

[repoland2]

Hello everyone.

As is often the case, I was recently informed that man has "free will." Now, we have all probably had more discussions on this topic than we thought possible so I want to assure you that I do not intend for this to be the same type of discussion. I am truly interested in your response and so I simply ask that, for the purpose of actually discussing this topic, any who participate keep their comments controlled.

There is, for me at least, a bit of mystery surrounding the claim that man has "free will." This is in part due to the various ways in which people employ that claim.

So, in light of the fact that there may be differences in how people define "free will," I suggest that on your initial response each participant define the manner in which they understand "free will." I will start:

I believe man's will is free only to the extent that he will choose that which he most desires at the moment of choice. In fact, as a rational creature, he must choose according to his greatest desire or inclination at the moment of choice.

Now, such a claim is essential to my understanding of the desparity between the "freedom" of the will of unregenerate man vice regenerate man. I do not believe that pleasing God is ever the greatest desire of unregenerate man, therefore, it is never the driving motivation for anything he does. It is my desire that we discuss the influence that our desires hold over our will and, specifically, how our desires regulate, and even limit, our ability to choose "freely."

To facilitate my point, I would ask any who participate to think of a time when they made a choice to do something they were unwilling to do. I ask for such an example because I do not believe man is capable of choosing to do that which he is unwilling to do. Now, this may seem like a given to some of you, but it is this very contention that I am regularly told is the driving force in man's "acceptance of Christ." I am told, "Man's will is inherently free to serve and obey God in righteousness, he often just isn't willing to do so." That, to me, seems like an oxymoron, "He's able but not willing."

I would say that a person's unwillingness to do something effectively negates his ability to do it.

If you disagree with that, please provide an example of a time when you chose to do something you were unwilling to do followed by your reason for doing it.

Thank you for your participation.

God bless

First, I would like to explain my understanding of free will. I believe that God gave us a (for lack of a better term) God like ability to make our own choices to do as we please. I feel, however, that the Lord's main desire is for each of US, who walk with Him and Love Him as a Father, Brother and Friend, would use their free will, to follow the Lord's will. Ultimetly sacrificing their own freedom, to do the will of God.

Secondly, I disagree that Man (or Women) cannot do something if they are unwilling. There have been several accounts where my wife has asked me to do something I was DEAD set against, not only dead set against, but had JUST issued my misgivings on the subject. Trying to be an understanding and loving husband, I (in the very sense of the word) UNWILLINGLY sacrificed my own desires and beliefs, feelings, morals and ethics, to indulge her momentary need for affection. Specifically from me, and me alone. She cried out for attention in a way that, granted was immature, but I sacrificed for her, because I love her. It SURE isn't easy, but it's doable... especially when you love someone so much that you would die for them.

 

[Reformationist]

Thank you

Asaph

You're certainly welcome. If we can be of any assistance or offer any comfort please let us know.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

First, I would like to explain my understanding of free will.

Thank you.

I believe that God gave us a (for lack of a better term) God like ability to make our own choices to do as we please. I feel, however, that the Lord's main desire is for each of US, who walk with Him and Love Him as a Father, Brother and Friend, would use their free will, to follow the Lord's will. Ultimetly sacrificing their own freedom, to do the will of God.

I more or less agree, except that I don't think it is quite accurate to equate the ability to make a choice to a God like ability to make a choice, for God does not contend with sin as we do so His choices are always in accord with His perfect nature. I understand that you recognize the weakness of this analogy but I just wanted to qualify my agreement.

Secondly, I disagree that Man (or Women) cannot do something if they are unwilling. There have been several accounts where my wife has asked me to do something I was DEAD set against, not only dead set against, but had JUST issued my misgivings on the subject. Trying to be an understanding and loving husband, I (in the very sense of the word) UNWILLINGLY sacrificed my own desires and beliefs, feelings, morals and ethics, to indulge her momentary need for affection. Specifically from me, and me alone. She cried out for attention in a way that, granted was immature, but I sacrificed for her, because I love her. It SURE isn't easy, but it's doable... especially when you love someone so much that you would die for them.

You see, this is the unintentional catch-22 of the question I ask. You say you were "unwilling" to do something your wife asked yet you submit that you did it. It doesn't sound like she forced you to do it so, even though you may have found it displeasing to do so, your desire to show your love for your wife overruled your desire to refrain from doing what she asked. In fact, your love for your wife is what made you willing, dispite your misgivings.

You see repoland2, you were not unwilling to do it because you did do it. If you were truly unwilling, you wouldn't have done it.

For instance, would you be willing or unwilling to forsake Christ for earthly comforts?

God bless