An Example?

[Reformationist]

Because sometimes I can just be stiff-necked.

Um...you force your will to align with God's because you're stiff-necked? You lost me on that one. I'm not asking why you have to force your will. I'm asking why you do force your will. Why are you trying to align your will to God's will?

I know, you just never would have had that impression about me would you?

LOL! Well, I think that is a pretty common trait for all people, so I can't imagine you'd be different.

Sheer stupidity, if I am being honest. It can be hard to resist the flesh and sometimes denying it is just a struggle, at least it can be for me.

Ainesis, we seem to be having a communication disconnect here. I agree that it isn't wise to refuse to obey and I also agree that doing so is rather stupid. What I'm asking you is why you refuse to obey? What is it that motivates you to do so?

I think the reason for my choice either way is whether or not I am decidcing to do what God wants or what I want.

The reason for your decision is because you're deciding? Sorry but either what you say makes no sense or I'm just misunderstanding you. What causes you to decide one way or the other?

Or, when you refuse to deny the flesh, you smoke.

Smoking is giving into my fleshly desire for something harmful. How is that denying my flesh? You completely lost me on that one.

Because I know that in me is no good thing, and that God's ways are perfect and higher than mine. He knows better than I.

So you desire to do the will of God, correct? And isn't it this desire that motivates you to act accordingly?

And I believe this is what Paul is saying. However, based on your comments, then Paul is not telling the truth when he says that his desire is really to do what God wants.

Paul says he wants to do what God wants and doesn't want to sin. You seem to be saying, No, Paul must have desired to sin more than obey or he would not have.


It doesn't seem to support your premise.

Ainesis, do you have a desire to please God? Is that desire at the forefront of your mind when you choose to sin or does something else take precedence?

Also, Paul's cure for this is not to have his desire for God increase, but to be delivered from the will or nature that is against God.

No. Paul is speaking about being delivered from the sinfulness of his flesh. He says, "who will deliver me from this body of death?" He's speaking of the weakness of his flesh. It is this very weakness that leaves man vulnerable to temptation. When the desires of the flesh become stronger than our desire to do that which we know in our mind to be right, we sin. Most people know when they are sinning. That knowledge is often not enough to overcome the desire to sin.

I'll give you an example of a passage that actually does deal with this issue:

James 1:14,15
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Our desires are like the neck of our inner man. They turn our head (will) as they please.

Yes, unless you deny that desire in spite of what you want, which is, I believe, what God would have us to do.

And why would I deny it Ainesis? A decision must be predicated by a desire. If it is not then it is an arbitrary decision and not applicable. The reason I would deny that desire is because I have a desire to be a godly father and be obedient to God.

No, that is not really what I am saying. Yes, I do have a desire to obey God. However, that obedience is not dependent upon me having a desire to obey God more, but on a determination to deny that which is against God.

As such, it is not a matter of what is my greatest desire (for sometimes quite frankly, that is the flesh). But it is a matter of whether I will deny what I want in deference to what God says, whether I want to or not.

Ainesis, I'm not sure what to say. You seem to be contending that your decision to deny what you want in deference to what God says isn't predicated by a desire to please God. In fact, you seem to be denying that a decision to obey God even require a desire to obey God. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Maybe I'm just not getting what you're saying but I do appreciate the input.

God bless

 

[Ainesis]

Um...you force your will to align with God's because you're stiff-necked? You lost me on that one. I'm not asking why you have to force your will. I'm asking why you do force your will. Why are you trying to align your will to God's will?

Oops! Misunderstood you there. I try to align my will with God's because I recognize that His ways are better than my own. Also, this post is much longer than I want. So, since I think I address many of your questions in my response below, I will not pull out each of your comments individually. Just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

The reason for your decision is because you're deciding? Sorry but either what you say makes no sense or I'm just misunderstanding you. What causes you to decide one way or the other?

Nope. That is not what I said. I did not say that the reason for my decision is because I am deciding. I said the reason for my choice is whether I am deciding to obey God or not.

Smoking is giving into my fleshly desire for something harmful. How is that denying my flesh? You completely lost me on that one.

Yeah, you misread what I said. My comment supported exactly what you state in the first statement. Smoking is giving in to a fleshly desire for something harmful. So, when you refuse to deny the flesh of that desire, you smoke.

You seem to be saying the following: Your greatest desire -> Your will

I am saying:

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-> In line with God's commands -> Allow
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa|
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa|
Your greatest desire -
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa|
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa|
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-> Against God's commands -> Deny


What we decide to do is not the result of our greatest desire, but is the result of whether we will obey God and crucify those things that are not like Him. Even if the desire for sin is greater than any other, we must be disciplined and deny that which against God. If we want to be a disciple, we must first deny ourselves.

Look at Jesus in Gethsemene.

"And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. " Mark 14:36

You assert (I believe) that one's greatest desire determines one's will. If that is true, then Jesus' greatest desire at this moment was not to die. In this text, Jesus admits that His will at this moment was not the same as the Father's. He wanted God to take away this cup He was about to drink. Yet, He died. He denied His will in favor of what the Father's will was.

Now, you can say, "The reason He did this is because His will to obey the Father was greater than His will to be released from this death." But that is not stated in the text. Is He following His greatest desire or denying His greatest desire at that time? The text seems to indicate a denial.

We will all have strong desires to disobey at times. But God says that He always provides a way of escape out of temptation. What is that doorway? It is the power via the Spirit to deny ourselves (including our greatest desires) in favor of what God says to do.

Paul said that he buffeted his body daily. He was not simply being led by his greatest desire; In fact, he said that his greater desire was to do what God wanted. Yet, he still had to struggle against and deny that in himself that was standing up against God.

In the world, we are a slave to our greatest desires. We are led by the desires of the flesh because we have no ability in and of ourselves to do anything else but choose sin. Not so, once we are saved. Once we turn to Christ, He gives us the ability to crucify that nature so that the motivator for our decisions is not what we desire more, but what is in line with what God commands - even at the expense of what we desire. Again, I just don't see the premise that our greatest desires are determinants of our will supported in Scripture.

So you desire to do the will of God, correct? And isn't it this desire that motivates you to act accordingly?

Not always. When obedience is demanded in an area that is particularly hard, sometimes my desire to do what I want is quite simply greater than my desire to obey God. This is when I must deny.

If obedience to God was always the result of my desire to obey being greater than anything else, then what is there for me to deny? Why does God call us to deny ourselves if obedience is predicated on that being the greater desire? I simply would obey because I am fulfilling my greatest desire. The whole command then to deny is pointless.

I'll give you an example of a passage that actually does deal with this issue:

James 1:14,15
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Our desires are like the neck of our inner man. They turn our head (will) as they please.

I am not so sure. Look at the previous text.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

No one is tempted by things that are undesirable to them. In order for something to tempt you, it must appeal to a desire in you or it will not be tempting.

Yet, God says that we can "endure" temptation. The word for endure here is hupomenō which means "to stay under (behind), that is, remain; figuratively to undergo, that is, bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere: - abide, endure, (take) patient (-ly), suffer, tarry behind."

Those enduring the temptation have desires just as strong as those who succomb to it. There is no indication that the temptation of those who endure is any less strong than the temptation of those who succomb.

I would say that the key text in the Scripture you provide is not that those who fall into sin have desires; but that they allow themselves to be "drawn away" by these desires. All have desires, all are tempted, but some resist/endure and others do not. The desire (which is present for all) does not appear to be the causitive action.

And why would I deny it Ainesis? A decision must be predicated by a desire.

Based on what? Why do you assume that a decision must be predicated by a desire. Perhaps decisions can be made by the sheer force of your will, even while at odds with your desires.

Ainesis, I'm not sure what to say.

Ha! I find that hard to believe.

You seem to be contending that your decision to deny what you want in deference to what God says isn't predicated by a desire to please God.

Hopefully, the above has explained my position a little more clearly....or maybe not. LOL!

 

[Ainesis]

One more thing. I do believe that our desire to obey God grows over time as you suggest. I also believe that enduring temptation (rather than succombing to it) is one way in which the old sinful nature is crucified. In other words, those desires - or rather the strength of those desires - decrease as you stand against them.

So, I acknowledge the role that desire plays in choices we make; However, I don't believe that they are the determinant for these choices. I believe that in Christ we are empowered to override these desires.

 

[Reformationist]

Ainesis, I will try to address your latest posts but, I must say, it seems like you are purporting, or ignoring, the illogic of what you profess. I mean no offense. I honestly just do not see how someone can deny that their motivation for denying the lusts of their flesh is their greater desire to be obedient to the Lord.

I try to align my will with God's because I recognize that His ways are better than my own.

You see, this is the crux of what my confusion. You acknowledge that you recognize God's ways are better than your own. Such a qualification clearly shows that you desire to be in accord with God's ways. This, to me, is a given yet you seem to deny that your recognition and pursual of God's ways is based on your desire to make them your own. It seems rather nonsensical to me.

Nope. That is not what I said. I did not say that the reason for my decision is because I am deciding. I said the reason for my choice is whether I am deciding to obey God or not.

And why would you decide to obey God? Why would you choose to not obey God?

Yeah, you misread what I said. My comment supported exactly what you state in the first statement. Smoking is giving in to a fleshly desire for something harmful. So, when you refuse to deny the flesh of that desire, you smoke.

And why would I deny my flesh? Why would I refuse to deny my flesh?

• In line with God's commands -> Allow

• 
  
  
  
  Against God's commands -> Deny

• 
  
  
  
  Ainesis, how do I put this....we must have a reason for denying something that we desire. We are not robots, therefore, our actions are predicated by a motivation. If our motivation is to align our will to God's will, then the reason that we deny something that is against God's commands is because we desire to obey God.
  
  
  
  

  What we decide to do is not the result of our greatest desire, but is the result of whether we will obey God and crucify those things that are not like Him.

  
  
  
  Why would we do that? Why Ainesis? Why would we seek to obey God? What is our motivation?
  
  
  
  

  Even if the desire for sin is greater than any other, we must be disciplined and deny that which against God. If we want to be a disciple, we must first deny ourselves.

  
  
  
  But to do so we must have a reason. With the exception of reflex, we do not act without motivation. The action of our mind choosing must be prompted by something. We don't just go through life, arbitrarily making choices. For instance, when I am faced with a difficult person who is being ungodly to me, I have a choice to either respond in kind or respond in godliness. Something motivates me to choose one way or the other. I don't just flip a coin. If we recognize that it is better to respond in love and seek to do so then it is because we desire to do what we think is better. If we think it is the better approach because it is what God commands and we respond in that manner for that reason, that is synonymous with saying that we choose to respond in love because we desire to be obedient to what God has commanded.
  
  
  
  

  Look at Jesus in Gethsemene.
  
  "And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. " Mark

  14:36
  
  You assert (I believe) that one's greatest desire determines one's will. If that is true, then Jesus' greatest desire at this moment was not to die. In this text, Jesus admits that His will at this moment was not the same as the Father's. He wanted God to take away this cup He was about to drink. Yet, He died. He denied His will in favor of what the Father's will was.

  
  
  
  
  Look at the end of that statement. Jesus desired that the cup of God's wrath be taken from His lips. Was that His greatest desire? Clearly not. Even in the midst of His suffering, His desire to obey God's will was paramount, "not what I will, but what thou wilt." That is very explicit.
  
  
  
  

  Now, you can say, "The reason He did this is because His will to obey the Father was greater than His will to be released from this death." But that is not stated in the text. Is He following His greatest desire or denying His greatest desire at that time? The text seems to indicate a denial.

  
  
  
  Ainesis, this is one of the clearest examples in the Bible of someone's desire to obey God superceding their desire to have their will be done. Jesus is clearly denying his desire to have the cup of wrath pass from Him because of His desire to do the will of God. Sorry, but, in my opinion, that is the worst passage in the Bible you could have picked to prove your point.
  
  
  
  

  Not always. When obedience is demanded in an area that is particularly hard, sometimes my desire to do what I want is quite simply greater than my desire to obey God. This is when I must deny.

  
  
  
  I honestly mean no disrespect but I feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall here. Your choice to deny what you desire is predicated by something, right? It's not an arbitrary choice, right? What is it that motivates you to deny what you desire?
  
  
  
  

  I am not so sure. Look at the previous text.
  
  James 1:12
  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
  
  No one is tempted by things that are undesirable to them. In order for something to tempt you, it must appeal to a desire in you or it will not be tempting.
  
  Yet, God says that we can "endure" temptation. The word for endure here is hupomenō which means "to stay under (behind), that is, remain; figuratively to undergo, that is, bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere: - abide, endure, (take) patient (-ly), suffer, tarry behind."
  
  Those enduring the temptation have desires just as strong as those who succomb to it. There is no indication that the temptation of those who endure is any less strong than the temptation of those who succomb.
  
  I would say that the key text in the Scripture you provide is not that those who fall into sin have desires; but that they allow themselves to be "drawn away" by these desires. All have desires, all are tempted, but some resist/endure and others do not. The desire (which is present for all) does not appear to be the causitive action.

  
  
  
  Ainesis, I'm not contending that desires, in and of themselves, lead to sin. Quite the contrary. I'm contending that sinful desires, if they are the strongest desires we have, lead to sin. We have a reason for denying ourselves something that appeals to us, yes? What is that reason? The causative agent in why we choose to give into a desire is in how much of ourselves we give to that desire, i.e., how much we desire it. Those that resist do so for a reason. If they desire the sin more than to do God's will then they are led away by that desire.
  
  

  Based on what? Why do you assume that a decision must be predicated by a desire. Perhaps decisions can be made by the sheer force of your will, even while at odds with your desires.

  
  The "sheer force of the will" is our desires. They are what motivates the will. People do not will anything that they do not desire. You may believe that your greatest desire is to disobey God but if, when faced with temptation, you choose to deny that desire and, instead, obey God, you had a reason for doing so. Once again, our choices are not arbitrary. We choose how we choose for a reason.
  
  

  One more thing. I do believe that our desire to obey God grows over time as you suggest. I also believe that enduring temptation (rather than succombing to it) is one way in which the old sinful nature is crucified. In other words, those desires - or rather the strength of those desires - decrease as you stand against them.
  
  So, I acknowledge the role that desire plays in choices we make; However, I don't believe that they are the determinant for these choices. I believe that in Christ we are empowered to override these desires.

  
  Well, I appreciate your input. Your position makes absolutely no sense to me but I do appreciate all the time you've taken. I just fail to see how we can pursue obedience by denying our desires if we do not have greater desire to be obedient. It seems rather nonsensical to me.
  
  Anyway, thanks again,
  God bless
  
  
  

 

[Ainesis]

Ainesis, I will try to address your latest posts but, I must say, it seems like you are purporting, or ignoring, the illogic of what you profess. I mean no offense.

Yeah...right...LOL! No offense taken.

I honestly just do not see how someone can deny that their motivation for denying the lusts of their flesh is their greater desire to be obedient to the Lord.

Quite simply because we are called to obey, regardless of how we feel, not because of how we feel.

we must have a reason for denying something that we desire.

True. But that reason does not have to be based on it being the greatest desire at that time.

Look at the end of that statement. Jesus desired that the cup of God's wrath be taken from His lips. Was that His greatest desire? Clearly not. Even in the midst of His suffering, His desire to obey God's will was paramount, "not what I will, but what thou wilt." That is very explicit.

Yet, according to you, it is the greatest desire that determines the will. I stated in a previous post that desire is not a definer of the will and you said finding that out was the purpose of this thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16704532&postcount=52

So, if the greatest desire is a definer of the will (as you suggest), then Jesus' greatest desire was to have the cup passed from Him because He acknowledges that as His will. Yet, He overrides that will/greatest desire by doing instead what God would have Him to do.

I honestly mean no disrespect but I feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall here.

Believe me, I completely understand.

I'm not contending that desires, in and of themselves, lead to sin. Quite the contrary. I'm contending that sinful desires, if they are the strongest desires we have, lead to sin.

Yet, there is no indication in the text that those who succomb to temptation have stronger desires to sin than those who do not. The contention is that they let themselves be drawn away by their desires, whereas the others did not.

Scripture appears to say that even if the desire to sin is the strongest desire we have, we are to deny and resist those urges. Again, why would we have to deny anything if God expected obedience only when the desire to obey has become greater than the desire to sin? What are we denying?

People do not will anything that they do not desire.

This is where we disagree and this is why the communication is so difficult because you are operating from a premise that I do not share or agree with. Not your fault or mine. We are simply approaching our understanding from 2 different positions.

I believe that in sin, man is not able to do above what he desires. I believe that in salvation, man can and must.

Well, I appreciate your input. Your position makes absolutely no sense to me but I do appreciate all the time you've taken. I just fail to see how we can pursue obedience by denying our desires if we do not have greater desire to be obedient. It seems rather nonsensical to me.

Because by nature, we are rebels; which is why we have to be born again. But even after having been born again, we must weaken/crucify that old nature through denial until the spirit man is strong enough to desire by nature the things pertaining to God.

I am completely comfortable ending the dialogue if it is not progressing. If you do not mind, however, give me your understanding of the following:

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." II Corinthians 10:3-6

What are we fighting against in order to obey God if in fact when we obey it is because that's our greatest desire to do so?

God Bless!

 

[Telrunya]

Well let's see. Making a choice that is against my nature?

I joined the US Navy when I was 18 years old. I rose quickly through the ranks and was an E-5 or petty officer 2nd class when my 4 years was up. I re- enlisted for another 3 years because I enjoyed all the travel, my job, shooting big guns and blowing things up, and the people I worked with. In short I liked the lifestyle. When my second enlistment was about up, my father asked me to come work for him and learn to take over the family business. This was very undesireable. My father had been very abusive to my brother and I growing up. I wont go into the list here of things he did, but in the entire 7 years I was in the military I only went home on leave 4 times and all of those times I stayed with my brother. I had as little contact as possible with my father over those 7 years and my brother has had no contact with him since he moved out of the house at 17. In addition to this the family business is very seasonal and has long hours for not so great pay. I had never enjoyed that work when I was growing up. I decided to give my father a second chance though. Now that I was a man there was no way I would allow him to do the things he had done to me as a child. I got out of the Navy and worked for him for 5 years. It was evident after the first six months that my father hadn't changed much at all. While he couldn't hurt me physically anymore he was still very much a manipulator and was very capable of emotional abuse. I knew what he was doing and I knew my options. I was not without skills or other avenues. I could have rejoined the Navy at anytime. Now keep in mind all this was before I was saved. I decided to keep working for him in hopes that I might be able to help him, maybe even change him. 4 and a half years later I knew that there was nothing I could do. So I turned it over to God and left. The anger and resentment of my father and the things he has done is a constant thought struggle for me and always has been. It was a choice, not a desire, to subject myself to that man again.

 

[Asaph]

Well let's see. Making a choice that is against my nature?

I joined the US Navy when I was 18 years old. I rose quickly through the ranks and was an E-5 or petty officer 2nd class when my 4 years was up. I re- enlisted for another 3 years because I enjoyed all the travel, my job, shooting big guns and blowing things up, and the people I worked with. In short I liked the lifestyle. When my second enlistment was about up, my father asked me to come work for him and learn to take over the family business. This was very undesireable. My father had been very abusive to my brother and I growing up. I wont go into the list here of things he did, but in the entire 7 years I was in the military I only went home on leave 4 times and all of those times I stayed with my brother. I had as little contact as possible with my father over those 7 years and my brother has had no contact with him since he moved out of the house at 17. In addition to this the family business is very seasonal and has long hours for not so great pay. I had never enjoyed that work when I was growing up. I decided to give my father a second chance though. Now that I was a man there was no way I would allow him to do the things he had done to me as a child. I got out of the Navy and worked for him for 5 years. It was evident after the first six months that my father hadn't changed much at all. While he couldn't hurt me physically anymore he was still very much a manipulator and was very capable of emotional abuse. I knew what he was doing and I knew my options. I was not without skills or other avenues. I could have rejoined the Navy at anytime. Now keep in mind all this was before I was saved. I decided to keep working for him in hopes that I might be able to help him, maybe even change him. 4 and a half years later I knew that there was nothing I could do. So I turned it over to God and left. The anger and resentment of my father and the things he has done is a constant thought struggle for me and always has been. It was a choice, not a desire, to subject myself to that man again.

But the choice you made was absolutely in line with some desire you had. Whatever that might have been is only speculation on my part, but let's say for arguements sake that your greatest desire at that point was to have a normal loving relationship with your father. You would have been willing then to make the choice to align yourself with him in this business venture in order to give that an opportunity to happen. Your desire determined your choice, not the other way around.

Asaph

 

[Telrunya]

But the choice you made was absolutely in line with some desire you had. Whatever that might have been is only speculation on my part, but let's say for arguements sake that your greatest desire at that point was to have a normal loving relationship with your father. You would have been willing then to make the choice to align yourself with him in this business venture in order to give that an opportunity to happen. Your desire determined your choice, not the other way around.

Asaph

Actually I had very little hope that I would ever have a loving relationship with him. Way too much water under the bridge. I can honestly say; While I may have had a desire to have a normal loving father son relationship, I knew for a certainty that would never happen.

 

[Reformationist]

But the choice you made was absolutely in line with some desire you had. Whatever that might have been is only speculation on my part, but let's say for arguements sake that your greatest desire at that point was to have a normal loving relationship with your father. You would have been willing then to make the choice to align yourself with him in this business venture in order to give that an opportunity to happen. Your desire determined your choice, not the other way around.

Asaph

Absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, perfectly answered.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Actually I had very little hope that I would ever have a loving relationship with him. Way too much water under the bridge. I can honestly say; While I may have had a desire to have a normal loving father son relationship, I knew for a certainty that would never happen.

I completely understand but desire and hope are two different things. It's clear that your desire to have a relationship with your father superceded your desire to not subject yourself to that same situation. And, when you felt that nothing had changed, nor would change, you no longer desired to be in that situation more than you desired to get out of it. Then what happened? You left.

God bless

 

[Ainesis]

Absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, perfectly answered.

According to your understanding, which I am not sure is accurate. I would love to see this assumption held up to Scripture as I think it would be shown that there a examples of people going aganist their own wills/greatest desires in order to serve God.

God Bless

 

[Asaph]

Actually I had very little hope that I would ever have a loving relationship with him. Way too much water under the bridge. I can honestly say; While I may have had a desire to have a normal loving father son relationship, I knew for a certainty that would never happen.

Brother, that's what sons do.

 

[Asaph]

According to your understanding, which I am not sure is accurate. I would love to see this assumption held up to Scripture as I think it would be shown that there a examples of people going aganist their own wills/greatest desires in order to serve God.

God Bless

If that is the case, then their greatest desire was God. What an awesome thing.

Asaph

 

[Ainesis]

If that is the case, then their greatest desire was God. What an awesome thing.

Asaph

Not according to the premise that the greatest desire is the determinant for your will. Is that not the premise?

And yes, it is an awesome thing for our greatest desire to be God!

 

[Asaph]

Not according to the premise that the greatest desire is the determinant for your will. Is that not the premise?

And yes, it is an awesome thing for our greatest desire to be God!

But you still miss the point. If you go against what you want in order to do that which you believe God has told you, your own desire is factually to serve God. That cannot be disputed. Your desire to serve God was greater than your desire to serve self.

How is it that you are not understanding this very logical and simple concept?

Are you afraid that your pride will be injured by admitting that you desire to serve God greater than you desire to serve self?

Didn't Moses do the same thing?

Asaph

 

[Ainesis]

But you still miss the point. If you go against what you want in order to do that which you believe God has told you, your own desire is factually to serve God. That cannot be disputed.

Why not? Because you don't think it is so? Outside of saying that it does not align with your particular understanding, you have not stated why it is indisputable. Scripture shows various examples of people putting aside their wills for God. And if will is synanymous with greatest desire (as has been supposed), then they are putting aside their greatest desire for God (at that time); not merely following another greater desire.

How is it that you are not understanding this very logical and simple concept?

Simply because I do not agree with the premise you set forth. The underlying assumption in your premise is that people do only what they want to do; and I don't see that as the case.

Are you afraid that your pride will be injured by admitting that you desire to serve God greater than you desire to serve self?

LOL! That is really silly. If that were something I had a problem with then by no means could I be a Christian.

It is my pleasure and honor to serve God, but I am at the same time honest enough to admit that doing so can be even in spite of my greatest desire at the time.

Regardless, however, of what you may think of me, that does not address the Scriptures that seem to refute the premise as you define it.

Didn't Moses do the same thing?

Moses made false accusations against others because they did not see things the way that he did?

 

[Asaph]

Why not? Because you don't think it is so? Outside of saying that it does not align with your particular understanding, you have not stated why it is indisputable. Scripture shows various examples of people putting aside their wills for God. And if will is synanymous with greatest desire (as has been supposed), then they are putting aside their greatest desire for God (at that time); not merely following another greater desire.

OK. Let's get this very straight. Are you saying that you DO NOT desire to do God's will?

If your answer to that question is that of course you have chosen God over your own selfish sinful desires, then you have proven my point beyond anything anybody with half a brain can miss understanding.

I was speaking on a level of logic I thought you had the ability to follow.

I repent.

Simply because I do not agree with the premise you set forth. The underlying assumption in your premise is that people do only what they want to do; and I don't see that as the case.

That is absolutely false. That is in fact the basis of your arguement. That you somehow have this greater capacity than most people and you actually do things that you do not really wish to do because.......poor you.........you are such a martyr.

LOL! That is really silly. If that were something I had a problem with then by no means could I be a Christian.

It is my pleasure and honor to serve God, but I am at the same time honest enough to admit that doing so can be even in spite of my greatest desire at the time.

Regardless, however, of what you may think of me, that does not address the Scriptures that seem to refute the premise as you define it.

What scriptures? Give me even one scripture that says a person did not perform according to what his desire was at the time. It's not there.

Moses made false accusations against others because they did not see things the way that he did?

Moses denied the passing pleasures of sin for the eternal reward that was set before him. What was his desire?

Can you really not see what Mose's desire was?

I am appalled at the tamber of you response to me. I had not one ill feeling toward you at all. But now, oh yeah. You have greatly offended me and I will now deal with you as you have set the course.

Asaph

 

[Ainesis]

OK. Let's get this very straight. Are you saying that you DO NOT desire to do God's will?

I have never said that. I appreciate, however, you asking instead of making assumptions this time.

What I have said is that at any given moment, my desire to obey may not be the prevailing or greatest desire in me. Yet, I believe that we are empowered by Christ's Spirit to deny such desires.

If your answer to that question is that of course you have chosen God over your own selfish sinful desires, then you have proven my point beyond anything anybody with half a brain can miss understanding.

Well, perhaps I have only a half-brain. However, the question set up in this thread was as it applies in specific situations, not in general. In general, I have of course chosen to serve the Lord. In any given situation however, the greater desire may actually be to do something that is out of line with that.

I was speaking on a level of logic I thought you had the ability to follow.

Please, don't misunderstand. It is not that I do not follow; I do not agree. that is not the same thing.

That is absolutely false. That is in fact the basis of your arguement. That you somehow have this greater capacity than most people and you actually do things that you do not really wish to do because.......poor you.........you are such a martyr.

Then I dare to say that you have completely misread everything I posted. Your understanding does not resemble in the least what I have said.

What scriptures? Give me even one scripture that says a person did not perform according to what his desire was at the time. It's not there.

I have provided them. However, since you have failed to read for understanding what I have written previously, I will not waste your time further.

I am appalled at the tamber of you response to me. I had not one ill feeling toward you at all. But now, oh yeah. You have greatly offended me and I will now deal with you as you have set the course.

So be it. That is the Christian example, is it not? Treat others as they have treated you (or as you perceive them to have treated you).

I believe that if you are to review your posts, you will see that it is you who has been insulting and presumptuous.

Although I recognized that we do not agree on this, I have not implied that this is due to a lack of intelligence on your part. Although we clearly approach this from different vantage points, I have not accused you of being self-righteous.

Nonetheless, I fear my words are wasted for you have not understood anything else I have said previously. So, thank you for the conversation...as much as it was.

 

[Asaph]

Fine. That perfectly gets us back to the original question of "does any one ever do that which goes against that which they most desire at that point?"


Tis a very simple question to those who my not be so infected with pride that they fear losing autonomy.

For that is really the point isn't it? Autonomy? Pride? A lack of subjection to God?

ROFL!!!!!!

Oh my.

Asaph

 

[Reformationist]

According to your understanding

Of course. Who else's understanding would I be commenting based on?

which I am not sure is accurate.

I understand.

I would love to see this assumption held up to Scripture as I think it would be shown that there a examples of people going aganist their own wills/greatest desires in order to serve God.

God Bless

Well, I certainly don't hold my position as infallible. If I am incorrect I wish to know that, especially if it is based on Scripture. As it is, I don't believe I've yet seen an instance of someone acting contrary to their greatest desire. I understand that you believe you have provided such an example but, with all due respect, I don't think you have.

God bless