An Empirical Theory Of God

[Washington]

Then again, how can you be certain that "fear" doesn't stop atheists from embracing the concept of a "creator"? Might some have a guilty conscious? Might some simply be afraid of being ashamed? It seems as through human emotions and human ego might be behind almost any belief system.

Whole different question, isn't it. I suggest you bring it up in a different forum. But as a brief answer; there are a variety of reasons that compel people to reject the concept of god, the main one being the lack of a good reason to believe in one. I seriously doubt that fear is much if any a part of the equation. HERE is a list of reasons.

 

[Michael]

Whole different question, isn't it.

Probably.

I suggest you bring it up in a different forum.

Fair enough.

 

[Wedjat]

Well, the primary energy source of EM fields in our solar system is approximately 8 minutes away, max.



Well, I can probably figure out a zillion ways to measure the EM effect of the sun on Earth. I can "predict" things about the behaviors of living organisms based on this theory. I can definitely demonstrate a host of EM processes in space. What exactly do I need to demonstrate or predict to make this a viable empirical theory in your opinion?

That these EM fields either are a consciousness or are driven by one. Otherwise they are just natural phenomena like any other.

 

[Michael]

That these EM fields either are a consciousness or are driven by one. Otherwise they are just natural phenomena like any other.

How might we try to establish such a thing?

3-day GOES X-ray Flux Monitor

I suppose we could start looking at the energy release patterns of the sun and see if we can find similarities to intelligent brainwaves. Keep in mind that EM fields are "natural" in humans and they "naturally" give rise to "awareness". Awareness is not "unnatural" in any way.

 

[Wedjat]

No it is not unnatural... but I don't see anything indicating that a large scale EM field would posses or contribute to a consciousness. You came up with a few ways that it could be tested for consciousness, but what led you to believe that there could be a consciousness there in the first place without any sort of previous experimentation on the subject?
Besides, consciousness is not caused by EM fields alone, the complex web of connections in our brain contributes to most of it's function, from what we know of the sun, that sort of complexity simply isn't there, it is a large scale fusion reaction, not a brain.

 

[Michael]

No it is not unnatural... but I don't see anything indicating that a large scale EM field would posses or contribute to a consciousness.

You could say exactly the same thing about the EM field of the brain. How does consciousness arise if not via electrical activity?

You came up with a few ways that it could be tested for consciousness, but what led you to believe that there could be a consciousness there in the first place without any sort of previous experimentation on the subject?

Well, for one thing, humans the world over since dawn of recorded history have reported having a relationship with something they call "God". Unless they're all nuts, there must be a "cause" for that experience. I've also demonstrated a link between EM fields and peoples "spiritual" experiences. Many individuals report meeting something they call "God" during NDE's experiences, including atheists. There phenomenon all suggest that the universe itself could be intelligent.

Besides, consciousness is not caused by EM fields alone, the complex web of connections in our brain contributes to most of it's function, from what we know of the sun, that sort of complexity simply isn't there, it is a large scale fusion reaction, not a brain.

We don't understand hardly anything about solar activity. What little we do know makes it very clear that it's not simply a fusion process responsible for the atmospheric heating, rather there is a continuous discharge process at play that best described in terms of macroscopic circuits:

[0908.0813] Generation of large scale electric fields in coronal flare circuits

 

[RealityCheck]

How does consciousness arise if not via electrical activity?

Electrical activity itself is not sufficient. Wikipedia is not a definitive answer here but it is a start at what your myriad problems are here:

Consciousness is subjective experience or awareness or wakefulness or the executive control system of the mind.[1] It is an umbrella term that may refer to a variety of mental phenomena.

Consciousness in medicine (e.g., anesthesiology) is assessed by observing a patient's alertness and responsiveness, and can be seen as a continuum of states ranging from alert, oriented to time and place, and communicative, through disorientation, then delirium, then loss of any meaningful communication, and ending with loss of movement in response to painful stimulation.

Consciousness in psychology and philosophy has four characteristics: subjectivity, change, continuity and selectivity.[1][6] Intentionality or aboutness (that consciousness is about something) has also been suggested by philosopher Franz Brentano. However, within the philosophy of mind there is no consensus on whether intentionality is a requirement for consciousness.

You'll note that the medical definition isn't helpful, since that has to do with being alert, not with being self-aware. That leaves psychology (not medical psychiatry) and philosophy, each of which would clearly tell you that things like rocks and gaseous masses are not conscious, and (hate to tell you this) but rocks and gaseous masses are the primary forms of visible matter in this universe.

humans the world over since dawn of recorded history have reported having a relationship with something they call "God". Unless they're all nuts, there must be a "cause" for that experience.

Belief in the supernatural did not necessarily arise in humans in numerous places at different times in different, distinct episodes. Such beliefs are more likely to have originated with a small group of proto-humans, millions of years ago, and as those people spread out and diversified and eventually settled in places all over the world, their beliefs in the supernatural changed, evolved, became more sophisticated, but also widely diversified. Yet, if you'll read "The Hero with A Thousand Faces", you'll see that there are numerous similarities amongst different myths and religions. This isn't necessarily evidence of a universal truth, but certainly points to common origins in our beliefs.

People all around the world used to believe the earth was flat. For thousands of years (for certain) and more likely millions of years (extending back to unwritten history), people believed the world was flat (and, not surprisingly, many also believed that their particular land and people lived in the middle of that flat world). Sure, there might have been some that didn't believe this, that thought maybe it was a different shape... but they'd have been the overwhelming minority.

And in the same vein, those same people believed that the sun was rising on one side of the immobile flat earth, traveling through the sky, then setting on the other side of the flat earth, then traveling behind the other side of the flat disc to rise again on the other side.

Did the fact that an overwhelming number of people all over the world believed those things make those things real or true?

We don't understand hardly anything about solar activity. What little we do know makes it very clear that it's not simply a fusion process responsible for the atmospheric heating

You're right, grammatically - we DON'T understand "hardly anything" about solar activity. We understand a great deal about the sun. It is fueled, pretty simply, by fusion in its core. The heat and energy of that fusion is carried from the core to the surface via convection. The surface radiates energy.

You're perhaps thinking of specific types of solar activity, such as sun-spots. Yes, we don't understand those things nearly as well as we could. But those things have little to do with the basic process of radiant heat generation caused by fusion in the sun's core.

 

[Doveaman]

An Empirical Theory Of God​

“In the end you will know that I am in you, you are in me and we are all one in God.” ​

The entire physical universe is God. The universe is alive and aware and actively involved in “creation”. Just as the electrical circuits in our physical forms give rise to awareness and consciousness in our brains, so too the macroscopic “circuits” of the universe give rise to awareness and a consciousness on a truly cosmic scale. These myriad of interlaced and interwoven circuits of energy, and quantum interaction, give rise to an awareness and consciousness far greater and more powerful than the microscopic variety of awareness found on Earth. Awareness is therefore an intrinsic feature of the universe. Its presence and expression at the microscopic level of life on Earth is a direct result of the existence of awareness at the macroscopic level.

God is the sum total of everything that exists in nature and every physical thing in the universe. We live our entire physical lives inside the body of God, sustained by the body of God. The dirt we walk on, the air we breathe, the water we drink, the chemicals of our body, the sunshine that sustains life on Earth, all of it belongs to and is a part of a living being that humans call God.

For in Him we live and move and have our being...and in Him all things hold together. - Acts 17:28,Col 1:17

I tend to think of God as being pregnant with all of us, and He is presently going through the labor pains of childbirth until we all are born again.

Unfortunately, some of us will be stillborn.

The Electrical Nature Of Living Organisms.

Scientific research into living organisms demonstrates that the intricate structures of the brain give rise to awareness. The electrical exchange of energy between neurons, the circuits of the brain create a kind of ‘quantum awareness’ that is the sum total of the thinking processes, of an organized structure, over some period of time. The various exchanges of electromagnetic energy inside the brain provide “awareness” with a place to reside and function. The unique and specific arrangement of neurons, life experiences, and current flows of each individual give rise to an individual sense of awareness, a unique sense of identity.

This rise of awareness in humans has led to experiences of God and a belief in a creator in virtually every culture on Earth. Many cultures consider nature to be “sacred’. We must ask ourselves: Why?

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. - Rom 1:20.

Just as God was manifested in the Physical Nature of Christ, so is He also manifested in the Physical Nature of the Universe – The Electrical Nature.

The Electrical Nature Of The Universe.

Scientific research into nature and cosmology demonstrates that electromagnetic energy and current flows are not only an integral part of life on Earth, they are an integral part of the functions of the Universe. From the electrical discharges we observe in our own atmosphere, to the electrical discharges we observe in the solar atmosphere, to electrical discharges that generate solar wind, to high speed “cosmic rays” all the objects in space are bathed and electromagnetic energy. The EM field permeates space and time, far beyond the boundaries our solar system, it exists everywhere we look in space. We find direct evidence of magnetic fields that indicate the flow of current in cosmic scale structures large and small.

Only in past 100 years of so have we begun to understand and appreciate the electrical nature of our universe. Kristian Birkeland was one first scientist to seriously study the Northern Lights. He surmised that these events were related to electrical processes in the Earth’s atmosphere. To prove his theory, he hiked extensively through the northern polar region to setup stations to measure the magnetic field of the Earth during solar storms. He also created extremely sophisticated empirical experiments, with various control mechanisms to test various aspects of his theories. Over time he and his friends gathered extensive evidence of the changing magnetic field during solar storms that gave rise to aurora. In his terella experiments he demonstrated that aurora were caused by the bombardment of Earth with high speed charged particles. In his experiments, he bombarded a metallic sphere in an evacuated chamber with a cathode ray. In this manner he was able to replicate the aurora around the poles of his sphere.

Naturally his next question turned to where these high speed charged particles originated, and he then created a series of ‘solar” experiments by turning his metallic sphere into a cathode and giving it a plasma atmosphere. In these cathode sphere experiments he was able to replicate and predict many important solar system phenomenon. He was the first scientist to predict high speed solar wind. His experiments also predicted high energy coronal loop discharges, high speed polar “jets” and many solar features not observed until modern satellites made direct observations of the solar atmosphere beyond the atmosphere of Earth.

Irving Langmuir was one of the first scientists after Birkeland to work with “plasma” in controlled laboratory conditions. Langmuir was in fact responsible for giving the forth state of matter its scientific name. As a biologist, he was inclined to compare the behaviors of ionic plasma to the plasma of human blood. He saw that plasma isolated itself from charged surfaces via double layers, and he saw many similarities between the behaviors of plasma and plasma in the blood, hence the name he came up with to describe the forth state of matter.

In the 1940 and 50’s, Dr. Charles Bruce documented and demonstrated a link between “electric discharge theory” and many observed phenomenon in the solar atmosphere and in space.

Nobel Prize winning author, Dr. Hannes Alfven wrote extensively about the circuits and electromagnetic processes in solar activities and in space, culminating in a book called “Cosmic Plasma” that describes these processes via magneto hydrodynamic theory, or MHD theory.

All of these predictions of electrical discharges in space have been verified by modern satellite imagery.

Like our brains, the release of energy of the sun at the highest energy wavelengths is not constant, rather it is variable and prone to frequent changes over time. It exhibits 11 year “cycles’ of energy release patterns, the next major cycle to peak in 2012-2013. Particularly during active phases the sun’s energy exchanges with the heliosphere become highly variable and electrically active.

As we look further out into space we find that all galaxies have strong electromagnetic fields. We find evidence of “Birkeland currents” in very large structures over vast distances of spacetime.

All of these pieces of empirical evidence point us toward the possibility that everything around us is a part of a living being called God.

In the beginning God...That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched — this we proclaim... - Gen 1:1,1 John 1:1

 

[Michael]

Electrical activity itself is not sufficient.

Well, in the sense that electrical activity alone does not define "consciousness", sure.

You'll note that the medical definition isn't helpful, since that has to do with being alert, not with being self-aware. That leaves psychology (not medical psychiatry) and philosophy, each of which would clearly tell you that things like rocks and gaseous masses are not conscious, and (hate to tell you this) but rocks and gaseous masses are the primary forms of visible matter in this universe.

Individual atoms in a brain are not conscious, but that does not me that the entire collection of atoms is not. Plasma is not actually a "gas", it's EM properties are entirely different from an ordinary gas. It's more like an electromagnetic fluid, hence the term MHD theory. The most dominant feature of a plasma is the fact it's a nearly ideal conductor, and it's highly sensitive to EM fields.

Belief in the supernatural did not necessarily arise in humans in numerous places at different times in different, distinct episodes. Such beliefs are more likely to have originated with a small group of proto-humans, millions of years ago, and as those people spread out and diversified and eventually settled in places all over the world, their beliefs in the supernatural changed, evolved, became more sophisticated, but also widely diversified. Yet, if you'll read "The Hero with A Thousand Faces", you'll see that there are numerous similarities amongst different myths and religions. This isn't necessarily evidence of a universal truth, but certainly points to common origins in our beliefs.

Well, there a quite a few different "theologies" and cultures to consider here. I guess the first question is "Why" did that occur in the first place? Why do human beings report meeting God during NDEs? Something has to influence the fact humans are overwhelmingly theistic.

People all around the world used to believe the earth was flat.

Maybe in Europe. The Mayans had no such illusions. That's pretty much a white European urban legend actually.

Did the fact that an overwhelming number of people all over the world believed those things make those things real or true?

No, but then the same statement applies to the minority position. There is also an 'experiential' aspect to these beliefs. Many people claim to "experience" God personally, or believe God has directly influence their life in some way. How do you explain that? Jesus for instance claiming to have a living relationship with a living being. History is full of such accounts from all cultures and in all religions.

You're right, grammatically - we DON'T understand "hardly anything" about solar activity. We understand a great deal about the sun. It is fueled, pretty simply, by fusion in its core. The heat and energy of that fusion is carried from the core to the surface via convection. The surface radiates energy.

It's surface does not simply radiate energy at some temperature. The atmosphere is electromagnetically active, generating EM discharges that reach tens of millions of degrees. There's a lot more going on than simple fusion somewhere in the core.

You're perhaps thinking of specific types of solar activity, such as sun-spots. Yes, we don't understand those things nearly as well as we could. But those things have little to do with the basic process of radiant heat generation caused by fusion in the sun's core.

Solar wind isn't well understood or explained. Coronal loop activity certainly isn't well understood by the mainstream, although there have been folks who actually "predicted" such things from empirical experiments (Kristian Birkeland).

The point is that we're only scratching the surface of understanding our own sun, it's processes, it's 11 year cycles, etc. One thing we already know, it's not a simple fusion reactor. There's a lot more going on than simple a heat source in the core.

 

[Wedjat]

But none of that actually suggest an intelligence, all it suggests is that we don't know everything there is to know about the sun.

Really, this is taking the whole "sun god" thing to a new level. Just out of curiosity, do you actually believe this, or is it just sort of a "what if" thing. Can the creation of the universe be attributed to Sol? Was Jesus the son of the sun? Are other stars false gods?

 

[Michael]

But none of that actually suggest an intelligence, all it suggests is that we don't know everything there is to know about the sun.

It's not just our own sun we know almost nothing about, it's every sun, every galaxy, every 'structure' and everything in the universe we know nothing about from the level of "empirical physics".

Really, this is taking the whole "sun god" thing to a new level.

You have a much too limited view of what I'm suggesting evidently. A single neuron is not a "human being", likewise no single "sun" is "God".

Just out of curiosity, do you actually believe this, or is it just sort of a "what if" thing.

I certainly believe in God. I certainly believe this is the single most "scientific" theory of God that I know of. The answer is yes.

Can the creation of the universe be attributed to Sol? Was Jesus the son of the sun? Are other stars false gods?

Like I said, your view of 'God' is rather limited. Think bigger.

 

[sandwiches]

Like I said, your view of 'God' is rather limited. Think bigger.

I don't get this answer. Can this view of the universe answer any question regarding god?

Does he have a personality?

What does he want, if anything?

Does he love us?

Is there a Heaven? If so, where is it?

Does he really think it's bad for people to have sex before marriage or be homosexuals?

Did he inspire or write the Bible or any other holy book?

 

[Wedjat]

It's not just our own sun we know almost nothing about, it's every sun, every galaxy, every 'structure' and everything in the universe we know nothing about from the level of "empirical physics".

You have a much too limited view of what I'm suggesting evidently. A single neuron is not a "human being", likewise no single "sun" is "God".

I certainly believe in God. I certainly believe this is the single most "scientific" theory of God that I know of. The answer is yes.

Like I said, your view of 'God' is rather limited. Think bigger.

Yes but when we think bigger we run into problems again. If each star is a "neuron" equivalent as you now seem to be suggesting then we're back to the issue of being limited by the speed of light.

 

[Michael]

I don't get this answer. Can this view of the universe answer any question regarding god?

Besides "Location, location, location"?

Does he have a personality?

Evidently he has a funny sense of humor as I am reminded every time I look in the mirror.

What does he want, if anything?

Unconditional love and your attention.

Does he love us?

Unconditionally.

Is there a Heaven?

Sure.

If so, where is it?

According to Jesus, inside you. All around you. Everywhere you look.

Does he really think it's bad for people to have sex before marriage or be homosexuals?

I've never felt judged by God.

Did he inspire or write the Bible or any other holy book?

I would say say he inspired Jesus, the "Living Word Of God", yes. Books are books.

 

[Michael]

Yes but when we think bigger we run into problems again. If each star is a "neuron" equivalent as you now seem to be suggesting then we're back to the issue of being limited by the speed of light.

Maybe yes, maybe no. In terms of pure electromagnetic energy, probably so. In terms of the speed of "awareness" of such a macroscopic and ancient being? Well, I really don't know. Lots of theoretical particles in QM could in theory travel faster than light. In many theories of cosmology (not my favorite ones of course) the universe itself is thought to expand faster than light.

In terms of overall "awareness" however, the sun is but one part of a incredibly sophisticated web of interwoven circuits. Just as it takes more than a single neuron to create a human "being", I assume a single sun is but a small piece of a much larger interwoven and vast network of awareness.

 

[Wedjat]

Maybe yes, maybe no. In terms of pure electromagnetic energy, probably so. In terms of the speed of "awareness" of such a macroscopic and ancient being? Well, I really don't know.

You are assuming that "awareness" is separate and immune to physical.

Substance Dualism

In terms of overall "awareness" however, the sun is but one part of a incredibly sophisticated web of interwoven circuits.

But you've done nothing to prove this. All you are doing is drawing similarities between EM fields in the sun and our brains, this doesn't suggest a consciousness, all it represents is that EM fields can exist in different circumstances.

 

[Michael]

You are assuming that "awareness" is separate and immune to physical.

No, I'm definitely not suggesting that awareness is separate from or immune from the physical or physics. Quite the opposite in fact. I'm simply noting that I'm not sure that the "carrier particle" of macroscopic awareness is necessarily related to or limited to the speed of the EM field. In fact I know of almost no cosmology theory that suggest that the behaviors of the universe are limited by the speed of light.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsPn5dXfTvA

But you've done nothing to prove this. All you are doing is drawing similarities between EM fields in the sun and our brains, this doesn't suggest a consciousness, all it represents is that EM fields can exist in different circumstances.

So what exactly would you accept as "evidence" of the existence of a macroscopic awareness that can and does interact with humans?

 

[Bushido216]

Well, I can probably figure out a zillion ways to measure the EM effect of the sun on Earth. I can "predict" things about the behaviors of living organisms based on this theory. I can definitely demonstrate a host of EM processes in space. What exactly do I need to demonstrate or predict to make this a viable empirical theory in your opinion?

It's not just enough to predict something. I can predict things all day. You also need to develop a potential test wherein we could either falsify or fail to falsify your predictions. In other words, you need to tell us how we would test your theory against the actual world.

Otherwise, you haven't given us anyway to disambiguate your theory from the standing theory that the universe is inanimate.

 

[Bushido216]

You could say exactly the same thing about the EM field of the brain. How does consciousness arise if not via electrical activity?

So, it should be pointed out that electrical activity is necessary, but not sufficient. The electrical signals you're talking about effect changes on other things, namely cells in our brain. Our consciousness isn't just electricity zapping around, but electricity acting on our biological cells to produce an effect.

If you're going to appeal to human consciousness to explain your theory, then you're going to need to go all the way. What is the EM field acting upon to produce consciousness? Since human awareness requires biological elements, what such elements are extant in the universe?

 

[Bushido216]

In terms of overall "awareness" however, the sun is but one part of a incredibly sophisticated web of interwoven circuits. Just as it takes more than a single neuron to create a human "being", I assume a single sun is but a small piece of a much larger interwoven and vast network of awareness.

The above emphasis is mine.

Again, you appeal to human awareness here, specifically human glial cells (I'll assume you meant those). What such cells exist in a sun? Further, do you not realize how the use of the word "assume" here hinders, rather than helps, your case?