Amos 9:14-15 Fulfilled, or not?

OneAccordRM · Jul 30, 2014

keras said:
IP, what is remarkable, is how you cannot see how prophesies that are patently unfulfilled, WILL be fulfilled in God's good time. Jeremiah 12 is prophecy that fits very well to todays situation and can't be said to have happened as described before.

Who are 'My people'? Read these verses, they describe Christians:
Psalm 24:3-5, Romans 9:24-26, Malachi 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:11-18, Isaiah 56:1-3, Psalm 69:36, Psalm 37:9, Isaiah 55:1-3 and many other scriptures that describe those who belong to the Lord, pre or post Jesus.

Preterists would be perfectly happy if the OT never existed.

Maranatha27 · Jul 30, 2014

No the prophecy has not been fulfilled

OneAccordRM · Jul 30, 2014

Maranatha27 said:
No the prophecy has not been fulfilled

Thanks for replying

Ive seen people dance for three pages in a row only not to answer as simply as you just did.

parousia70 · Jul 30, 2014

Yekcidmij said:
I recognize, and you admit, that you are asking loaded questions. The problem isn't in the response; the problem is in the questioner.

Loaded question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hmmm....
So, in the spirit of the loaded question, OneAccord, Have you stopped beating your wife?

A Simple yes or no will do.

OneAccordRM · Jul 30, 2014

parousia70 said:
Hmmm....
So, in the spirit of the loaded question, OneAccord, Have you stopped beating your wife?

A Simple yes or no will do.

Can you show me that in the bible?

Is Amos 9:14-15 fulfilled?

Cat got your tongue?

OneAccordRM · Jul 30, 2014

parousia70 said:
Hmmm....
So, in the spirit of the loaded question, OneAccord, Have you stopped beating your wife?

A Simple yes or no will do.

What does that have to do with eschatology btw?

I thought we were discussing scripture?

OneAccordRM · Jul 30, 2014

Fulfilled or not?

Isa 60:21 "Then all your people will be righteous; They will possess the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified.

Eze 37:25 "They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons' sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever.

OneAccordRM · Jul 30, 2014

Heres another loaded question.

Is Isaiah 7:14 fulfilled or not?

OneAccordRM · Jul 30, 2014

2Co_10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ

This is why you guys cant answer.

As it is written.

Interplanner · Jul 30, 2014

There's nothing loaded about it, OneA. There is debate about whether that term's only translation is virgin.

Before you needle people about literalism with the OT, you might want to see if that is how the NT handled things. We do not have permission to go directly out of the OT if the apostles were doing something else with it. Many "land" references in the OT simply meant God would establish his people, ground them, give them a basis; the question is who his people are (esp in light of the NT), and what kind of thing is a solid and unshakeable "ground" in the NT.

OneAccordRM · Jul 30, 2014

Interplanner said:
There's nothing loaded about it, OneA. There is debate about whether that term's only translation is virgin.

Before you needle people about literalism with the OT, you might want to see if that is how the NT handled things. We do not have permission to go directly out of the OT if the apostles were doing something else with it. Many "land" references in the OT simply meant God would establish his people, ground them, give them a basis; the question is who his people are (esp in light of the NT), and what kind of thing is a solid and unshakeable "ground" in the NT.

How did you answer the op Inter?

Interplanner · Jul 30, 2014

that it is suggestive like many other prophecies; it suggests what God will do for his remnant, but it is not going to be exactly that. You never find that in the NT. He did after all bring us an unshakeable kingdom, and a Jerusalem that hovers just above the earth and yet is intimately known, enough for Paul to say "she is our mother," which is a very provocative thing to say at that time.

keras · Aug 1, 2014

To say that because the NT promotes the spiritual aspect of the Gospel, then all the promises of Land inheritance are abrogated, that cannot be and is not right. In fact, according to prophecy, the holy Land itself cries out for the Lord to cleanse it and for the Lord's righteous people to return to it:

Isaiah 49:14-23 Zion says: The Lord has forsaken me. The Lord says: Can a woman forget her child? I shall never forget you. I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands. Your dwellings are always before My eyes.
Your people will hasten back, while your enemies depart. Look around, your children gather and come to you. They will be as ornaments in the Land.
Once the Land was desolate. Your enemies are now far away. The children born while the Land was occupied by foreigners will now say: This place is too small for us. Zion will say; who bore these children, when I was deserted, where did they come from?
The Lord says; I shall signal to the nations, they will carefully transport My people to their Promised Land. Kings will be your sponsors and great people will serve and honour you. You will know that I am the Lord, none who trust in Me will be disappointed.

Zion: The holy Land, forsaken and desolate, Jer. 22:6-7, Hosea 4:3, that is how it will be after the next prophesied event: The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, an explosion of the sun, directed at the Middle East that will clear and cleanse the entire area. Currently most of the holy Land is occupied by atheists or false religion worshippers. The Jews will be judged, Zechariah 13:7-9 , but a remnant will survive.
Ezekiel 30:1-5, Hosea 4:3, Zephaniah 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7, Rev. 6:12-17
‘the enemies depart, they are now far away’: Psalm 83 and Micah 4:11 tell us how the surrounding nations and entities all hate Israel and want to ‘wipe them off the map’. Those attackers will all be killed, mostly by their own weapons; Psalm 7:12-16, and the rest will flee. Jer. 49:4-5 & 35-37
‘Your people will hasten back’: A part of Judah has returned, but very few are true believers and they all face judgement. A remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:13 We are told who are the Lord’s people: Ephesians 2, Psalm 24:3-5, Malachi 3:16-17
‘The Lord’s people, all those who put their trust in Him’: are gathered and transported to all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Isaiah 66:18b-20, Psalm 107, Jer. 23:3-4, Zechariah 9:16 On that Day their God will save them, they will sparkle like jewels in the Land.
‘The Promised Land’: will be regenerated and become fruitful. Joel 2:21-24, Psalm 126:1-5
Ezekiel 36:8-12 You, mountains of Israel, put forth your branches and bear fruit, for the homecoming of your people is near. Isaiah 51:3
Isaiah 35:1-10 Let the desert be glad, let it flower and rejoice!...Be strong, My people, fear not your God comes to save you with His vengeance and retribution. Then understanding will be given to all who couldn’t see or comprehend the Prophetic Word. A highway will appear and by that road, the Lord’s redeemed people will travel into their heritage. His holy people, set free will enter Zion with shouts of praise for their Redeemer. Gladness and joy will come upon them and suffering and sorrow will be gone.
Psalm 48:11-14 The hills of Zion rejoice, Judah’s cities are glad. Walk about the land, count the towers. Note the fortifications and buildings, so that you can tell about them to the coming generations. For this God is our God, our guide and protector, now and forever.
Psalm 69:35-36 For God will deliver Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah. The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His Name will dwell there.
Isaiah 55:11-13 You will go out with joy and be led forth in peace....the Land will rejoice at your coming. Reference: Revised English Bible, some verses abridged.

That all this happens before the Return of Jesus in His glory, is made clear by Isaiah 49:23
‘you will know that I am the Lord’’. First, His people will gather and settle in all of the holy Land. Those who serve the Lord will inherit the Land. They will fulfil prophecies and prepare for the eventual Millennial reign of Jesus.

Interplanner · Aug 1, 2014

Keras,
so why is this never expressed in the NT?

Here is why: the aspect of the land mattered in post-exilic thinking. But the climactic event in that return to the land was the pouring out of the spirit (it is really astounding how fragmented futurism is on this--they accept all kinds of external events but the Spirit's coming never matters). Now, we all know when the Spirit came, and futurism is typically very uncomfortable with how Peter handled Joel 2.

For ex., there was a member here who once said it is as plain as day: just as Peter "denied Christ" three times, he also was totally mistaken about what happened at Pentecost! Do you see my point? This is a fragementing theology (2P2P) imposing itself on the Word, and unable to admit it. It would rather say that Peter blew it that day than to agree to the apostle's teaching!

Danoh · Aug 1, 2014

Interplanner said:
Keras,
so why is this never expressed in the NT?

Here is why: the aspect of the land mattered in post-exilic thinking. But the climactic event in that return to the land was the pouring out of the spirit (it is really astounding how fragmented futurism is on this--they accept all kinds of external events but the Spirit's coming never matters). Now, we all know when the Spirit came, and futurism is typically very uncomfortable with how Peter handled Joel 2.

For ex., there was a member here who once said it is as plain as day: just as Peter "denied Christ" three times, he also was totally mistaken about what happened at Pentecost! Do you see my point? This is a fragementing theology (2P2P) imposing itself on the Word, and unable to admit it. It would rather say that Peter blew it that day than to agree to the apostle's teaching!

Something like that; about the actual sense of Peter's "this is that," Acts 2 address, is found in E.W. Bullinger's great book, "How to Understand and Enjoy the Bible."

Basically, the book is about the various principles of Bible study he used.

Bullinger was one of the earlier pioneers of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, but in his senior years allowed himself to be swayed by Charles Welch's areguements for an Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

In both, his "this that," as well as in his Acts 28 assertions, it is obvious he did not always follow the great study principles he asserts in that must have book.

Perhaps you were dealing with an Acts 28er.

In all this, I see the need for not only finer distinctions between things, but finer distinctions within one's overall approach to begin with, continually examining how one approaches examing things itself.

That right there is where we differ so with one another as to what we each believe we are actually looking at.

Its why I prefer time more in a KJV than in commentaries, and such. Becuase it leaves itself open to interpretation, you are not only forced to invest much time in its mines, but to seek out from within its pages just what tools it might also provide for the mining of its gold, its way...

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 1, 2014

Danoh said:
Something like that; about the actual sense of Peter's "this is that," Acts 2 address, is found in E.W. Bullinger's great book, "How to Understand and Enjoy the Bible."

Basically, the book is about the various principles of Bible study he used.

Bullinger was one of the earlier pioneers of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, but in his senior years allowed himself to be swayed by Charles Welch's areguements for an Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

In both, his "this that," as well as in his Acts 28 assertions, it is obvious he did not always follow the great study principles he asserts in that must have book.

Perhaps you were dealing with an Acts 28er.

...

My goodness, do we have to discuss Dispensationalism here

http://www.christianforums.com/f424/
Dispensationalism A forum for the discussion of dispensationalist theology.

.

keras · Aug 1, 2014

Interplanner said:
Keras,
so why is this never expressed in the NT?

Here is why: the aspect of the land mattered in post-exilic thinking. But the climactic event in that return to the land was the pouring out of the spirit (it is really astounding how fragmented futurism is on this--they accept all kinds of external events but the Spirit's coming never matters). Now, we all know when the Spirit came, and futurism is typically very uncomfortable with how Peter handled Joel 2.

For ex., there was a member here who once said it is as plain as day: just as Peter "denied Christ" three times, he also was totally mistaken about what happened at Pentecost! Do you see my point? This is a fragementing theology (2P2P) imposing itself on the Word, and unable to admit it. It would rather say that Peter blew it that day than to agree to the apostle's teaching!

IP, you constantly push your 'forget the OT prophesies' idea. You seem very sure that's right, but why then, doesn't the NT say they are now superseded?
No, they are all merely on hold, until the end of the Church age. God said His Word will be carried out, expect it all to happen or can the whole lot.
Prophesies like in Isaiah 49, my #93, tell us of God's thinking and His plans. They are quite feasible and when consideration is given to our current world situation, a very good outcome. For righteous people, that is: the unrighteous will be wiped out. Can't think of a better solution myself!

Interplanner · Aug 1, 2014

It is not "forget them" at all Keras! It is: read them the way the apostles do. It is nothing like D'ism, futurism, Judaism, 2P2P. Nothing.

The NT does innovate and transform many of them. go through John and find out how many things have a new meaning in christ: king, kingdom, manna, exodus. Look at Jn 12:34. Judaism thought one way about the whole realm of OT expectation, but Christ said walk in the light while you have the light. It was all about him. It is not about 1000 things happening.

Your "can the whole lot" has to be cross checked with Rom 9 (actually 3:3 starts it): has the word of God failed? No! Not because of literal fulfillment, but because it (the redemptive/gospel promise) never was about the descendancy of Israel to start with. It has always been about the Seed, which was Christ and what would be true in him in his Gospel. The huge multitude or seed exists because of faith in him as well. Correcting us to this misconception (of his readers or former friends in Judaism) is what Paul is busy doing in Rom 4, 9, Gal 3, Eph 2, 3, Acts 13.

I'm quite aware of Is 40-66, and of how the NT uses it. I have been at work in it for years. When I go with what the NT says, I cannot get to the belief that a future set of externals will bypass what has transpired in the Gospel and will occur in Judea. The NT is very consistent about shaping these prophecies by Christ, about getting Christ "formed" in you (I believe that expression to be contrasting solidly with what had formed in them from Judaism).

Now, if I go at it apart from the NT, purposefully ignoring it, not only the quotes but the larger sections of statements of the NT about the OT and just use the OT myself, then yes I would come up with completely different conclusions. That is the whole point!

That is why a member here completely dumped Peter in Acts 2. I notice you said nothing about it. Yet that is the only thing you can do. You have to say Peter was in his reprobate mindset of denying Christ in Acts 2 for your "system" to hold together.

riverrat · Aug 2, 2014

Interplanner said:
It is not forget them at all Keras! It is: read them the way the apostles do. It is nothing like D'ism, futurism, Judaism, 2P2P. Nothing.

The NT does innovate and transform many of them. go through John and find out how many things have a new meaning in christ: king, kingdom, manna, exodus. Look at Jn 12:34. Judaism thought one way about the whole realm of OT expectation, but Christ said walk in the light while you have the light. It was all about him. It is not about 1000 things happening.

Your can the whole lot has to be cross checked with Rom 9 (actually 3:3 starts it): has the word of God failed? No! Not because of literal fulfillment, but because it (the redemptive/gospel promise) never was about the descendancy of Israel to start with. It has always been about the Seed, which was Christ and what would be true in him in his Gospel. The huge multitude or seed exists because of faith in him as well. Correcting us to this misconception (of his readers or former friends in Judaism) is what Paul is busy doing in Rom 4, 9, Gal 3, Eph 2, 3, Acts 13.

I'm quite aware of Is 40-66, and of how the NT uses it. I have been at work in it for years. When I go with what the NT says, I cannot get to the belief that a future set of externals will bypass what has transpired in the Gospel and will occur in Judea. The NT is very consistent about shaping these prophecies by Christ, about getting Christ "formed" in you (I believe that expression to be contrasting solidly with what had formed in them from Judaism).

Now, if I go at it apart from the NT, purposefully ignoring it, not only the quotes but the larger sections of statements of the NT about the OT and just use the OT myself, then yes I would come up with completely different conclusions. That is the whole point!

That is why the member here completely dumped Peter in Acts 2. I notice you said nothing about it. Yet that is the only thing you can do. You have to say Peter was in his reprobate mindset of denying Christ in Acts 2 for your "system" to hold together.

If anyone can understand this post please raise your hand!

Interplanner · Aug 2, 2014

a couple of quote marks will help; I went back and put them in (expressions Keras used that I quoted)

Amos 9:14-15 Fulfilled, or not?

Amos 9:14-15 prophecy fulfilled, yes or no?

Yes, the prophecy is fulfilled

No the prophecy is not fulfilled

You hated Christ before you hated me.

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You hated Christ before you hated me.

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

You hated Christ before you hated me.

You hated Christ before you hated me.

You hated Christ before you hated me.

You hated Christ before you hated me.

You hated Christ before you hated me.

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You hated Christ before you hated me.

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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