Amils have some explaining to do.

[Timtofly]

Should we find it ironic that you can add the words "forty-two months" to Revelation chapter 20, but you cannot see "the time of the judgment of the dead" found in Revelation 11?

I can read fine, and no one is adding 42 months to Revelation 20. The 42 months come just before Revelation 20. Jumping to conclusions?

 

[Timtofly]

Paul said below the fire comes at the return of Christ.

2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


We also find the fire below at the end of Revelation 20.
The exact number killed is not given in either passage.


Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Are you denying that millions of acres of land can burn for days? I think some Californians would disagree with you.

 

[Timtofly]

Im not quite following what people are saying about Armageddon, FP's, LOF's, etc so I'll just go back to the opening post and answer it again.

Premill interprets Satan being bound to mean a period of 100% inactivity from Satan from involvement in the world.

Amill doesn’t interpret scripture the same way, so using verses like Satan roaming around like a lion doesn’t create conflict for the non-Premill views. We believe the change in scope of Satan deceiving the gentile/nations was the event of Christ binding Satan at the cross with the power of the gospel, so that the Gentiles en masse, for the first time, were able to come out of the darkness of the shadow of death, into the light. Satan is now powerless from deceiving and keeping the Gentiles in complete darkness as he did before Calvary.

Yes Satan still roams and devours, but he cannot prevent the multitudes of Gentiles from the nations to come out of darkness anymore as he used to be able to do. I hope this answers the original topic question.

Satan hardly decieved the nations any more than he was over the nations. Satan only decieves believers. Satan does not have to do anything where wickedness abounds. Humans do wickedness very well on their own. Gentiles were not limited by Satan to accept the one true God, creator of heaven and earth. Why do you give Satan any credit at all? Who even does that? Satan had no say so in God's plan from the day God created Satan, and still does not. Never will. Satan being bound was never the issue. Satan is definitely not bound now. The apostate church loosed him, compared to the 1st century church that had him on the run. When has 2 Thessalonians 2 stopped applying to the work of Satan? Paul wrote those words years after the cross. What human has lived for 2500 years deceiving believers?

 

[DavidPT]

You left out some people for some strange reason.

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


.

How do you figure I left them out? I did indicate, as of the 7th trumpet not everyone on earth are even dead yet, thus, these would be some of them.

Do you disagree that when the 7th trumpet sounds, the dead in Christ rise first? I'm assuming you don't, so how can it not be the time of the dead when they rise? But how can it be the time of all the dead when they rise if not all of the wicked lost are even dead yet when they rise? In context, the time of the dead is being applied to the first resurrection, not to the 2nd resurrection as well. As of the 7th trumpet, the thousand years haven't even begun yet. The 2nd resurrection involving the resurrection of the damned, this is after the thousand years, not prior to it.



Haven't I already provided ample evidence showing that the 42 month reign is not after the thousand years, it is before the thousand years? How do you propose Amil can still work? You can't logically place this event after the thousand years if this event has already been fulfilled before the thousand years even begin. In Revelation 20:4, those martyred for not worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign, are not martyred during the thousand years nor after the thousand years, they are martyred before the thousand years. A martyr, such as Stephen, proves this point. He was martyred when the beast is not, and assuming Amil, this would be meaning during the thousand years.The 42 month reign of the beast would not be paralleling the thousand years, nor can it parallel satan's little season after the thousand years.

until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11). This occurs during this period of time---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months(Revelation 13:5)----and is meaning when these are martyred---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)---and they are clearly martyred before satan is ever loosed from the pit.

This indicates, that before the thousand years even begin, this has been fulfilled---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

These are the ones meant in Revelation 20:4. And as of Revelation 15:2 there are no more martyrs because of this beast ever again. This verse also proves---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were---has already been fulfilled before satan is ever loosed from the pit.

 

[DavidPT]

Yes they have to do a lot of dancing around all the scriptures you mention (and shifting chairs at the same time).

Jesus said (in the closing hours just before His arrest) that the judgment of this world is "now" and the ruler of this world would be cast out "now" - and Revelation 12 tells us that Satan was cast out, and they overcame him "by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony" In the same chapter we read that after Satan was cast down to the earth, he went to make war against the rest of the woman's seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev 12:17). All the verses you quoted show that he was doing that from the start of the symbolic millennium (which incidentally is the reason I disagree with those pre-mills who believe Rev 12 is still to be fulfilled).

Nevertheless in an A-mill universe, the beast ascended out of the pit and was controlled by Satan, and was thrown into the LOF immediately before the start of the thousand years (and a thousand years before Satan will be thrown into the LOF), therefore the beast has not been around during this symbolic 1,000 years while Satan has been bound,

- but the souls had been martyred because of their testimony to Christ and because of their refusal to worship the beast, its image or take its mark/number, so those who fly around in their spacecraft in their A-mill universe, darting around at the speed of light to avoid collision with all the scriptures getting in their way, have to tell us who the beast was that existed 2,000 years ago - and that, I've noticed, leads to a good few diverging theories in the A-mill universe - their space-ships start colliding with each other when you ask them who the beast was.

They also have to tell us who it was in the 1st century (or just before the death and resurrection of Christ?) that had to worship the beast, is image and take its mark, or be killed - and that leads to even more theories and even more space-ship collisions in the A-mill universe.

To top it all, the fact that Paul tells us that the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are still alive will be changed - and that, at the parousia (second coming of Christ) - is just as problematic for the A-mills, when we read that it's the beast that ascended out of the abyss that kills the two witnesses, and they rise from the dead 3 1/2 days after they have been killed - so this places the beast's appearance back at the close of the "symbolic millennium" - but it can't be - because that same beast had his butt burnt already in the LOF just before, or at the start of the symbolic millennium, a thousand years before the devil goes there.

A-millennialism makes a great deal of sense...

When John was given these visions, the status of the beast was is not, meaning it was in the pit at the time. If this beast was satan, I would have to agree 100% that Amil is the correct position, end of story. But this beast is not satan, yet there are even some Premils that claim he is satan. So why are they still Premil, then?

 

[BABerean2]

Do you disagree that when the 7th trumpet sounds, the dead in Christ rise first? I'm assuming you don't, so how can it not be the time of the dead when they rise?

You have assumed wrong.

The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet also found in 1 Corinthians chapter 15. In that chapter death dies at the last trumpet.
Based on 1 Thessalonians 4, and 5 it is the timing of the gathering of the Church to Christ, on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief.

Revelation 10:7 indicates the "mystery" ends at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.
The Church is the "mystery" in the Book of Ephesians.

This is the same event found in Revelation 11:15-18.
Therefore, Revelation 11:15-18 is a vision of the Second Coming of Christ.


.

 

[BABerean2]

Are you denying that millions of acres of land can burn for days? I think some Californians would disagree with you.

Peter agrees with me below.

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

.

 

[DavidPT]

You have assumed wrong.

The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet also found in 1 Corinthians chapter 15. In that chapter death dies at the last trumpet.
Based on 1 Thessalonians 4, and 5 it is the timing of the gathering of the Church to Christ, on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief.

Revelation 10:7 indicates the "mystery" ends at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.
The Church is the "mystery" in the Book of Ephesians.

This is the same event found in Revelation 11:15-18.
Therefore, Revelation 11:15-18 is a vision of the Second Coming of Christ.


.

Apparently, we are not on the same page here. I didn't ask if you agreed that when the 7th trumpet sounds, the dead in Christ rise first. I asked if you disagreed. Then I assumed you didn't disagree. Then I asked how this can not be the time of the dead when they rise first? Followed by me asking, but how can it be the time of all the dead when they rise first if not not all of the lost wicked on earth are even dead yet when they rise?


As usual we are getting nowhere in these discussions. What would be ultra helpful is, if an Amil would actually address what I am bringing up, where I am convinced it shows Amil can't work, by showing me how any of my conclusions are wrong. That requires actually breaking down what I proposed, sentence by sentence if necessary, that Amils disagree with that I concluded, then show why and how my conclusions are wrong, then provide the correct conclusions to come to instead. Let's use some of post #84 as an example.

The following is what I proposed in that post.


1) Haven't I already provided ample evidence showing that the 42 month reign is not after the thousand years, it is before the thousand years? How do you propose Amil can still work?
------------
Amils need to explain how Amil can still work, in light of everything I have brought up which appears to disprove Amil, not prove it.
-------------

2) You can't logically place this event after the thousand years if this event has already been fulfilled before the thousand years even begin.
------------
Amils need to explain how I'm wrong here.
-------------

3) In Revelation 20:4, those martyred for not worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign, are not martyred during the thousand years nor after the thousand years, they are martyred before the thousand years. A martyr, such as Stephen, proves this point. He was martyred when the beast is not, and assuming Amil, this would be meaning during the thousand years.The 42 month reign of the beast would not be paralleling the thousand years, nor can it parallel satan's little season after the thousand years.

----------
Amils need to explain how I could be wrong here.
-------------

4) until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11). This occurs during this period of time---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months(Revelation 13:5)----and is meaning when these are martyred---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)---and they are clearly martyred before satan is ever loosed from the pit.
------------
Amils need to explain why I am wrong to conclude what I do here, then provide the correct conclusions to come to instead.
---------------

5) This indicates, that before the thousand years even begin, this has been fulfilled---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

These are the ones meant in Revelation 20:4. And as of Revelation 15:2 there are no more martyrs because of this beast ever again. This verse also proves---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were---has already been fulfilled before satan is ever loosed from the pit.
---------------
Amils need to explain how there can still be martyrdom of saints at the hands of this beast, after the thousand years, if before the thousand years have even ended, Revelation 16:11 and Revelation 15:2 have been fulfilled, indicating there is no more martyrdom ever again after this.
--------------

 

[Timtofly]

Peter agrees with me below.

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter also said do not be ignorant. Being willfully ignorant is denying that this Day of the Lord is 1000 years. The earth will be destroyed at the end of the Day, not the beginning of the Day. How can Christ complete the full Day, if the earth is destroyed at the beginning of the Day? That is not even good common sense. God sets up the whole Day to do His Will, and then comes the end to this reality.

Peter clearly uses this heaven and earth time relationship for a specific purpose, other than just wasting words for naught. This Day applies after the church is completed. This makes no sense that Christ is doing a physical kingdom now, because now is a spiritual kingdom. This current time is not the Day of the Lord. It is the gathering of the church. Two distinct time periods, that amil conflate in ignorance according to these verses by Peter. Revelation 20 clearly states Christ is reigning on earth in Jerusalem. That is definitely symbolic of a physical kingdom on earth in Jerusalem, as much as the words in this post are symbolic of my thoughts, literally. John was writing his thoughts, no?

 

[DavidPT]

Peter also said do not be ignorant. Being willfully ignorant is denying that this Day of the Lord is 1000 years. The earth will be destroyed at the end of the Day, not the beginning of the Day. How can Christ complete the full Day, if the earth is destroyed at the beginning of the Day? That is not even good common sense. God sets up the whole Day to do His Will, and then comes the end to this reality.

Peter clearly uses this heaven and earth time relationship for a specific purpose, other than just wasting words for naught. This Day applies after the church is completed. This makes no sense that Christ is doing a physical kingdom now, because now is a spiritual kingdom. This current time is not the Day of the Lord. It is the gathering of the church. Two distinct time periods, that amil conflate in ignorance according to these verses by Peter. Revelation 20 clearly states Christ is reigning on earth in Jerusalem. That is definitely symbolic of a physical kingdom on earth in Jerusalem, as much as the words in this post are symbolic of my thoughts, literally. John was writing his thoughts, no?

Assuming the day of the Lord is a thousand years, and that it continues post the 2nd coming, at the end of that day could not possibly be meaning what is described in 2 Peter 3, pertaining to these events. At the end of that day would be the beginning of satan's little season, followed by the great white throne judgment. When the thousand years expire, what ever period of time it was symbolizing, expires as well. That too is common sense. This latter would be true per both Premil and Amil.

 

[BABerean2]

Peter also said do not be ignorant. Being willfully ignorant is denying that this Day of the Lord is 1000 years. The earth will be destroyed at the end of the Day, not the beginning of the Day. How can Christ complete the full Day, if the earth is destroyed at the beginning of the Day? That is not even good common sense. God sets up the whole Day to do His Will, and then comes the end to this reality.

Peter clearly uses this heaven and earth time relationship for a specific purpose, other than just wasting words for naught. This Day applies after the church is completed. This makes no sense that Christ is doing a physical kingdom now, because now is a spiritual kingdom. This current time is not the Day of the Lord. It is the gathering of the church. Two distinct time periods, that amil conflate in ignorance according to these verses by Peter. Revelation 20 clearly states Christ is reigning on earth in Jerusalem. That is definitely symbolic of a physical kingdom on earth in Jerusalem, as much as the words in this post are symbolic of my thoughts, literally. John was writing his thoughts, no?

Willful ignorance would be ignoring the scripture found below to make your doctrine work.


You seem to be ignoring the parable of the wheat and tares of Matthew chapter 13, where the tares are gathered first and burned in the fire.

You are also ignoring what Paul said about Christ returning in fire below.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How do you figure I left them out? I did indicate, as of the 7th trumpet not everyone on earth are even dead yet, thus, these would be some of them.

Do you disagree that when the 7th trumpet sounds, the dead in Christ rise first? I'm assuming you don't, so how can it not be the time of the dead when they rise? But how can it be the time of all the dead when they rise if not all of the wicked lost are even dead yet when they rise? In context, the time of the dead is being applied to the first resurrection, not to the 2nd resurrection as well. As of the 7th trumpet, the thousand years haven't even begun yet. The 2nd resurrection involving the resurrection of the damned, this is after the thousand years, not prior to it.



Haven't I already provided ample evidence showing that the 42 month reign is not after the thousand years, it is before the thousand years? How do you propose Amil can still work? You can't logically place this event after the thousand years if this event has already been fulfilled before the thousand years even begin. In Revelation 20:4, those martyred for not worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign, are not martyred during the thousand years nor after the thousand years, they are martyred before the thousand years. A martyr, such as Stephen, proves this point. He was martyred when the beast is not, and assuming Amil, this would be meaning during the thousand years.The 42 month reign of the beast would not be paralleling the thousand years, nor can it parallel satan's little season after the thousand years.

until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11). This occurs during this period of time---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months(Revelation 13:5)----and is meaning when these are martyred---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)---and they are clearly martyred before satan is ever loosed from the pit.

This indicates, that before the thousand years even begin, this has been fulfilled---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

These are the ones meant in Revelation 20:4. And as of Revelation 15:2 there are no more martyrs because of this beast ever again. This verse also proves---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were---has already been fulfilled before satan is ever loosed from the pit.

You are deliberately ducking around the facts. I will keep repeating until you address. You obviously have no answer.

The issue is: Amils have repeatedly addressed this here (and on Bibleforums), but you continually avoid the evidence. Sadly, your pattern is: when your views are refuted you disappear from the discussion. You refuse to admit the obvious. That has been your pattern for years. What you do not realize is that the objective lurkers are not satisfied with that, and many end up embracing Amil.

I have already addressed this, and you have already avoided this. You have to do this for your argument to survive. I will try again.

Firstly, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet's activity are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's Coming, as you suggest. I didn't think anyone believed that, although, nothing shocks me in end-time discussion. Moreover, to attribute what you wrongly believe on this to the Amil position is wrong. Amils believe that they continue throughout the intra-Advent period (the millennium time).

Secondly, the beast represents the ongoing reign of Satan on the earth throughout time through the world secular anti-Christ system. It is not an end-time invention as Futurist's imagine.

Thirdly, Revelation is not chronological. It is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period. The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture. The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Fourthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end as you claim. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church, under the jackboot of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months at the end exposes your theological bias, your ignorance of history and your lack of objectivity.

Fifthly, there is good reason to connect Satan’s little season with the last 3.5 years (42 months/1260 days), found in Scripture. This does not demand a literal meaning in this most symbolic of books. This describes the final conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Satan and the beast will be loosed at the end to resist the people of God. That is when the restraint is simply removed. Right at the end, the kingdom of darkness is overthrew.

 

[Timtofly]

Assuming the day of the Lord is a thousand years, and that it continues post the 2nd coming, at the end of that day could not possibly be meaning what is described in 2 Peter 3, pertaining to these events. At the end of that day would be the beginning of satan's little season, followed by the great white throne judgment. When the thousand years expire, what ever period of time it was symbolizing, expires as well. That too is common sense. This latter would be true per both Premil and Amil.

Peter did not include the GWT. does that mean it does not happen? It is combining Peter and John that you get the full picture.

 

[Timtofly]

Willful ignorance would be ignoring the scripture found below to make your doctrine work.


You seem to be ignoring the parable of the wheat and tares of Matthew chapter 13, where the tares are gathered first and burned in the fire.

You are also ignoring what Paul said about Christ returning in fire below.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

No I am not. The tares and wheat are harvested during the Thunders. John was told to seal that part and do not write them down in this Revelation.

 

[Timtofly]

You are deliberately ducking around the facts. I will keep repeating until you address. You obviously have no answer.

The issue is: Amils have repeatedly addressed this here (and on Bibleforums), but you continually avoid the evidence. Sadly, your pattern is: when your views are refuted you disappear from the discussion. You refuse to admit the obvious. That has been your pattern for years. What you do not realize is that the objective lurkers are not satisfied with that, and many end up embracing Amil.

I have already addressed this, and you have already avoided this. You have to do this for your argument to survive. I will try again.

Firstly, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet's activity are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's Coming, as you suggest. I didn't think anyone believed that, although, nothing shocks me in end-time discussion. Moreover, to attribute what you wrongly believe on this to the Amil position is wrong. Amils believe that they continue throughout the intra-Advent period (the millennium time).

Secondly, the beast represents the ongoing reign of Satan on the earth throughout time through the world secular anti-Christ system. It is not an end-time invention as Futurist's imagine.

Thirdly, Revelation is not chronological. It is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period. The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture. The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Fourthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end as you claim. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church, under the jackboot of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months at the end exposes your theological bias, your ignorance of history and your lack of objectivity.

Fifthly, there is good reason to connect Satan’s little season with the last 3.5 years (42 months/1260 days), found in Scripture. This does not demand a literal meaning in this most symbolic of books. This describes the final conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Satan and the beast will be loosed at the end to resist the people of God. That is when the restraint is simply removed. Right at the end, the kingdom of darkness is overthrew.

This is all conjecture and not a single Scripture to back it up. Satan is cast into the lake of fire while simultaneously locked up in the pit at the battle of Armageddon? Which is which? Gog Megog or Armageddon. Burned up or chained up? Are chains symbolic of fire or is fire symbolic of chains?

 

[DavidPT]

Firstly, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet's activity are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's Coming, as you suggest. I didn't think anyone believed that, although, nothing shocks me in end-time discussion. Moreover, to attribute what you wrongly believe on this to the Amil position is wrong. Amils believe that they continue throughout the intra-Advent period (the millennium time).

I'm going to ignore your first two paragraphs. No need for me to waste time arguing about what you think I am doing or not doing. That's your opinion and that you have a right to your opinion.

When John was given the visions, which was post the cross, the status of the beast at the time was that it is not. That means the beast was in the pit at the time. This would be during your proposed thousand years, and here you are claiming that while it is not, it really is, as in it is causing mayhem and martyrdom of saints when it is in the pit. Any reasonable person, regardless whether they are Premil or Amil, would think the beast at least needs to ascend out of the pit first. Which would be meaning, assuming Amil, that it initially ascends out of the pit sometime during the thousand years. If that is true, Amils should have a good idea by now as to what date in history during the past 2000 years, that the beast initially ascended out of the pit. And Amils should also have a good idea by now as to what date in history during the past 2000 years, that the other beast initially rose up out of the earth. So do you all? Probably not, would be my guess.

Secondly, the beast represents the ongoing reign of Satan on the earth throughout time through the world secular anti-Christ system. It is not an end-time invention as Futurist's imagine.

I can agree with this while the beast was, and when he ascends out of the pit. But why should I agree with this while he is not, meaning when he is in the pit?

Thirdly, Revelation is not chronological. It is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period. The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture. The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

I certainly agree Revelation is not chronological from start to finish. And I certainly agree it is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period, but I don't currently agree this is including Revelation 20, though.

Fourthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end as you claim. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church, under the jackboot of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months at the end exposes your theological bias, your ignorance of history and your lack of objectivity.

If you have been reading any of my posts in this thread, and have been reading them carefully, then you would know I have ever claimed martyrdom is only limited to 42 months at the end. And look what else you are claiming in this post. You are claiming Stephen's martyrdom was the result of the beast system. Stephen's stoning was within years/decades of when John was given these visions, and John indicated the beast is not, at the time. That should mean when Stephen was stoned, the status of the beast also was is not.

Fifthly, there is good reason to connect Satan’s little season with the last 3.5 years (42 months/1260 days), found in Scripture. This does not demand a literal meaning in this most symbolic of books. This describes the final conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Satan and the beast will be loosed at the end to resist the people of God. That is when the restraint is simply removed. Right at the end, the kingdom of darkness is overthrew.

But the 42 months can't be meaning after the thousand years, if before that time, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 have already been martyred during this same 42 months. You just don't seem to get it. Unless this beast in question ascends out of the pit first, and another rises out of the earth, where this ultimately leads to the 42 month reign, there cannot even be any martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship this beast.


I may not have answers concerning certain things, but neither do you. To prove it, if you insist that the beast causes the martyrdom of saints during the thousand years, which obviously requires it has to ascend out of the pit first, then tell us the date during the past 2000 years when it initially ascended out of the pit? One thing is a fact, it can't be meaning before John received these visions, nor can it be meaning when he received these visions, therefore it obviously has to be a time post John receiving these visions. So what date did this initially happen, then?

 

[DavidPT]

Peter did not include the GWT. does that mean it does not happen? It is combining Peter and John that you get the full picture.

I get all of that, but apparently you are not fully grasping my point. If the day of the Lord is the millennium, this millennium has a beginning and an ending, therefore when it ends, it would no longer still be the day of the Lord. It would be satan's little season instead, followed by the great white throne judgment. The events pertaining to 2 Peter 3 in question here, clearly happen during the day of the Lord, not after the day of Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

I get all of that, but apparently you are not fully grasping my point. If the day of the Lord is the millennium, this millennium has a beginning and an ending, therefore when it ends, it would no longer still be the day of the Lord. It would be satan's little season instead, followed by the great white throne judgment. The events pertaining to 2 Peter 3 in question here, clearly happen during the day of the Lord, not after the day of Lord.

Clearly in Scripture there is overlap in time periods of the actual Lord's Days. The Cross was one finish, that should mark the end of the OT and the start of the NT, but no one agrees hardly on the specifics. The OT did not "officially" end until 70AD, if you want to end it with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Did the NT start in 4BC, at the birth announcement of Jesus? That is a 74 year period of a bunch of if's.

Same with the church in relation to the Lord's Day starting and the church's completion. The little season and GWT are no different. Saying there is no literal millennium because of a strict defining of a Lord's Day does not make sense.

 

[BABerean2]

No I am not. The tares and wheat are harvested during the Thunders. John was told to seal that part and do not write them down in this Revelation.

Once again, we have you quoting you without any scripture to back it up.


.

 

[sovereigngrace]

When John was given the visions, which was post the cross, the status of the beast at the time was that it is not. That means the beast was in the pit at the time. This would be during your proposed thousand years, and here you are claiming that while it is not, it really is, as in it is causing mayhem and martyrdom of saints when it is in the pit. Any reasonable person, regardless whether they are Premil or Amil, would think the beast at least needs to ascend out of the pit first. Which would be meaning, assuming Amil, that it initially ascends out of the pit sometime during the thousand years. If that is true, Amils should have a good idea by now as to what date in history during the past 2000 years, that the beast initially ascended out of the pit. And Amils should also have a good idea by now as to what date in history during the past 2000 years, that the other beast initially rose up out of the earth. So do you all? Probably not, would be my guess.

Thank you for finally addressing my response to your opinions.

The problem is, you are trying to understand, interpret and rebut the Amil position with a hyper-literalist Premil understanding of the dragon, chain, prison, seal and thousand years. This does not make sense and totally negates your whole argument every time.

Let us establish an important fact, Revelation 20 does not directly say that Satan is “bound.” It is actually the “dragon” in this symbolic depiction which represents Satan that is “bound.” After all, Satan is not a literal “dragon.” The “dragon” is simply a symbol relating to Satan. The dragon being bound up in chains and imprisoned symbolizes Satan’s inability to deceive the Gentiles “nations” since the 1st Advent. So, it doesn’t say that Satan would be sealed in a “prison” in the illustration, but rather the “dragon” would be sealed in a “prison.”

Invisible spirits are not held in a physical prison with literal chains. We are looking at figurative language explaining the restraint Satan and his minions have been under since the First Advent. Amil believes that the kingdom of God is in conflict with Satan but that the chains upon him, the beast and the fallen angels are spiritual preventing them from thwarting the great commission to the nations (Gentiles). He cannot stop their enlightening. The chains restrict his previous global influence. He was basically unchallenged outside of Israel. The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

• Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
• Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
• Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

I can agree with this while the beast was, and when he ascends out of the pit. But why should I agree with this while he is not, meaning when he is in the pit?

Once again, because the chains and prison are figurative? Hello!!! We are looking at the most symbolic setting in Scripture. Your literalist mindset is forcing you to miss the import. It is causing you to ignore the apocalyptic genre.

• When the Bible depicts the wicked as being bound in chains and held in prison is it intended to paint a picture of a literal prisoner bound by literal chains in a literal prison? Of course not. When it suits Premils they can easily grasp the symbolism throughout Scripture. But when it cuts across their beloved Premil doctrine they suddenly become rigid, hyper-literalist and unreasonable. The most damning thing for their argument is, the setting we are looking at is undoubtedly extremely figurative.
• Do you know of any physical chains that could possibly physically restrain a demonic spirit in a physical prison?
• Do you really believe that Revelation 20 is describing Satan being restrained for 'one thousand years' after the second Coming when "a thousand" is symbolically used to represent a long period of time or a large amount and when there is no other mention of this 'one thousand years' anywhere else in the Bible? Again, when it suits Premils they have no difficulty grasping the symbolic use of "a thousand" throughout the Word. But when it cuts across their beloved Premil doctrine they suddenly become rigid, hyper-literalist and unreasonable.

Of course, the imagery of chains and imprisonment being experienced by this dragon is intended to convey the real spiritual restraint, curtailment, damage, curtailment injury that has been executed upon our invisible spiritual foe since the 1st Advent; one that is not limited to a physical spatial geographical or physical place.

The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

Of course not. We are looking at figurative language. This symbolism is presented to depict his vicious and subtle malevolence. It shows the danger of his presence and danger of his ability.

I certainly agree Revelation is not chronological from start to finish. And I certainly agree it is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period, but I don't currently agree this is including Revelation 20, though.

The major hole in your understanding is corroboration a core aspect of hermeneutics. There is nowhere else in Scripture that corroborates your hyper-literalist understanding on every single aspect of Premil. There is nothing, and you know that. That alone is reason to abanodon it. Amils tend to hold strong to the truth of corroboration. Premils reject its important. That is the main division between the two camps.

The mistake you make is to interpret the rest of Scripture by your opinion of one lone highly-symbolic much-debated chapter in scripture. The evidence of the error of your position is the fact you lack any corroboration for every tenet of Premil. All you have is your private opinion of one chapter.

If I am wrong, please provide me with clear corroboration of these main tenets:

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

If you have been reading any of my posts in this thread, and have been reading them carefully, then you would know I have ever claimed martyrdom is only limited to 42 months at the end. And look what else you are claiming in this post. You are claiming Stephen's martyrdom was the result of the beast system. Stephen's stoning was within years/decades of when John was given these visions, and John indicated the beast is not, at the time. That should mean when Stephen was stoned, the status of the beast also was is not.

Again, your faulty understanding of the pit is causing you to miss the import of this teaching. We are looking at a spiritual prison that involves restraint in order to allow the invasion of Satan's territory through the great commission. Think about the prison the wicked abide in today: does that negate movement and them doing evil? Of course not! This is not hard to grasp!

But the 42 months can't be meaning after the thousand years, if before that time, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 have already been martyred during this same 42 months. You just don't seem to get it. Unless this beast in question ascends out of the pit first, and another rises out of the earth, where this ultimately leads to the 42 month reign, there cannot even be any martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship this beast.

I may not have answers concerning certain things, but neither do you. To prove it, if you insist that the beast causes the martyrdom of saints during the thousand years, which obviously requires it has to ascend out of the pit first, then tell us the date during the past 2000 years when it initially ascended out of the pit? One thing is a fact, it can't be meaning before John received these visions, nor can it be meaning when he received these visions, therefore it obviously has to be a time post John receiving these visions. So what date did this initially happen, then?

Premils wrongly divide up the fate of Satan, his demons and the beast into an array of disjointed and unconnected events, which are in truth the same overall ongoing experience. This is absurd because their fortune is carefully and inextricably tied together by association, interdependence and divine order. When Scripture speaks about Satan he is the representative head of the whole kingdom of darkness. When Satan was bound, the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). When Satan is released prior to the second coming so also is the whole kingdom of darkness (including the beast and every demon). When the Bible says “resist the devil, and he will flee from you” this is not limited to Satan, it is talking about the whole demonic realm.

All we have to do, is examine the fate of each in Scripture and you will quickly see a remarkable correlation.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. You would need to rip more than Revelation 20 out of the Bible for it to contradict other Scripture. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes.

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.