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Featured Amils have some explaining to do.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Sep 24, 2020.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?


    Doesn't lying involve trying to deceive someone?



    2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    Why would that be true while he is in the pit? According to Rev 9 there are also locusts in this same pit. What are they able to transform themselves into while locked in the pit?



    1 Thessalonians 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

    If satan can do that while locked up in the pit, why don't we see these locusts in Rev 9 ever doing things like this while they are locked up in the pit? Until someone opens the pit to let them loose, it's as if they don't even exist at the time. So why is it when satan is locked up in this same pit, the same isn't true of him as well, that it's as if he doesn't even exist at the time?



    1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    Does this mean they were sent to the pit? Isn't that where satan is during the thousand years?



    Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

    Why though, if satan is bound in the pit at the time, so that he can deceive the nations no more? Doesn't wiles involve trickery? Doesn't trickery involve deception?



    James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

    Where exactly is the devil going to flee to if he is supposed to be locked away in the pit at the time? Back to the pit he escaped from during Amil's version of the thousand years?



    Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    How does satan manage to cast others into a prison while he himself is in a prison at the time?



    There are even more Scriptures than this that I could submit as well. Amils then think there is not a single contradiction in any of the above if all of that is meaning during the thousand years while satan is in the pit? Explain why there are no contradictions. You at least owe us that since you are the ones alleging no contradictions.

    I submitted 7 verses above. How about going through each of those verses one by one then explaining to us how there are zero contradictions if satan is locked away in the pit at the time?


    It doesn't matter that some of what I submitted above is not meaning in a literal sense. What matters though, how Revelation 20 has satan depicted at the time, that this can't contradict how those verses I submitted above have satan depicted at the time.
     
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  2. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    This is very disingenuous to say the least. You have been told countless times and have made a point of ignoring the truth/facts/evidence countless times. The deception specifically refers to the general darkness that sat upon the Gentiles (ethnos) before Christ's first resurrection. This has now been lifted. We are evidence of the ongoing fulfillment of that today.

    The binding and imprisonment of Satan are spiritual descriptions in a highly symbolic chapter relating to a spiritual being. The same symbolism is related to the wicked but none of us take that literal.

    This is not brain science.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
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  3. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ephesians 5:32
    • "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."
    It seems that you do not understand the nature of Satan's bound in bottomless pit.

    This is a mystery because to most, that idea is unpalatable. Restrained for what, and loosed for what? This mystery is hidden from their eyes because they don't really understand the specific reason that Satan was bound in the first place. For example, so that he could not deceive the nations until after the millennial reign and witness of the saints (Revelation 20) was accomplished. What then? God tells us Satan must be loosed. That iniquity that was restrained by Christ's cross is a mystery to many because they really don't understand why Satan was bound. Many accept that he was bound, but they don't "really" know why. Just as the time of Satan's losing when iniquity will again abound in the congregation is a mystery.

    You need to understand that Satan was bound FOR God's Elect. It was the reason Christ came, and that he might deliver the nations and set the captive free. It does not mean that there will be world peace. No, Satan still working through unsaved men but unable to prevent the ones Christ chooses to hear HIs gospel though the witnesses and be saved. After Christ has finished building his church with all Elect secured, Revelation 7:1-4, Satan is loosened again and deceived the nation. It means there will be no more salvation, because of church apostasy and desolation.
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on the scripture below, this planet is now Satan's prison and he has been bound in some manner, and we are here with him.


    Was Satan one of the angels that sinned?

    2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


    Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



    Why does the beast ascend out of the bottomless pit in the verse below, if he is not there now?
    Do you believe a man ascends of the bottomless pit?

    Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    .
     
  5. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    I really don't have a side to take in the whole mill thing, but as I see it, Satan rises from the bottomless pit (which is not the earth), and inspires mortal man, on earth, to do evil stuff. Similar to how you could say the Holy Spirit descended to earth and inspired the apostles to write Scripture.

    No argument here. Just discussion.
     
  6. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Good point!
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The following might be helpful to you.


    Millennium Questions:

    Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?


    Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on the earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ?


    Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship?


    How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?


    What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?

    Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?


    Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15?


    Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our home in Galatians 4:24-31?


    Who is the king of the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:11?

    Based on Revelation 9:14, have some of the angels already been bound in some manner?

    If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation chapter 11, where is the beast now?


    Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. How would mortals survive this fire?

    Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?


    Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?

    When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?


    What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:1-16?


    Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?


    What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief, in 2 Peter 3:1-13?


    Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?


    .
     
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    This raises a cpl of questions. When does satan rise from the pit? And what about before he is even in the pit, none of the following that you brought up is true until he rises out of the pit first? He "inspires mortal man, on earth, to do evil stuff".
     
  9. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    What about the locusts in Revelation 9, the ones in this same pit? How should we understand their imprisonment? Why is it, while these locusts are in the pit, it's as if they don't even exist at the time, the fact they have zero interaction with mankind while locked up in the pit? Why is it, while satan is in the pit, the opposite is true in his case? This assuming Amil.
     
  10. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't think it's a man ascending out of the pit. I also wouldn't think it's satan ascending out of the pit either. satan and the beast are not the same entity.

    And the fact you brought up Revelation 11:17 here, on another board I am also a member of, I started a thread not too long ago, somewhat related to what you brought up here. I may copy some of my thoughts relating to that thread, and paste them into this thread. The Amils on this other board wanted to discuss everything but what I brought up. Only one Amil actually addressed the OP, but he is not your typical Amil, he has some off the wall theology being proposed at times, so it was difficult trying to discuss some of these things with him.
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Then who is ascending from the bottomless pit in Revelation 11:7?


    .
     
  12. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Revelation 17:8 KJV
    [8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Here is a little background for you to understand. The beasts of Revelation 13 and 17 are a FIGURE or REPRESENTATION of the BODY of Satan. God is not talking about a particular country or man here! When it says locusts are loosed from the bottomless pit, that is a FIGURE signifying those who are of Satan coming forth on the Earth THROUGH HIS SPIRIT! It is the SPIRIT of antichrist working through MANY PEOPLE which makes up the body of Satan! God is not talking about literal or semi-literal or physical locusts out of hell with Satan, but ACTUAL PEOPLE who rise up THROUGH the power or spirit of Satan. Get it? They are simply people with the spirit of antichrist coming forth through the power of Satan.

    So, they are (spiritually speaking) HIS BODY, which is the BEAST! Just like we, Christians, with the spirit of Christ, are spiritually His Body! Selah! The beast represents his carnal kingdom, those who are his children and his ministers. Satan personified as THIS beast representing His Kingdom! The Dragon, which is Satan Himself, gives the beast or his kingdom its power (Revelation 13:4). This SIGNIFYING Satan gives false prophets and Christs their strength! When you see more and more false prophets and Christs taking over churches all over the world, this is what the locusts coming out of the bottomless pit signifies! They are, to God, SPIRITUALLY the locusts, the frogs, the horsemen, the lice, etc.

    We need to look at the Old Testament plagues of Egypt as an EXAMPLE for us today. Because spiritually speaking, the Church has SPIRITUALLY become like Egypt, Revelation 11:8. This is HOW the church as "BECOME" a whore:

    Revelation 18:2 KJV
    [2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    This is God's New Testament congregation that was once represented God's Kingdom but has BECOME a home of the spirit of antichrist. This is how the spirit of locusts come into the church and make it their home! This signifies when the false prophets and christs become rulers of the church as a man of sin sitting (rule) in the temple of God, individually. This is how God sees things. God has commanded that they (locusts - false prophets and christs) not to hurt HIS people but only those who have not YET sealed of God so they will be deceived by them. This is why when they seek salvation but will not find it because they believe a lie. They are marked by Satan on their right hand (will) and foreheads (mind) so they unaware serve their king, Satan, Revelation 9:11.

    Only those with the spirit of Christ can understand this. Do you?
     
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    The beast is ascending out of the pit, whatever the beast is. It can't be a human, and it can't be satan, so what do you propose it is? Whatever it is, it apparently was not in the pit some time prior to John being given these visions, was in the pit when John was given these visions, will ascend out of the pit some time post John being given these visions.

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    This is the unholy trinity. There are 3 distinct entities here. The same way the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are 3 distinct entities.

    The beast rising out of the pit has zero to do with satan being loosed out of the pit. 2 entirely different time periods are involved. When the beast rises out of the pit, it is prior to the beginning of the thousand years. When satan is loosed from the pit, it is after the thousand years. This is also something I was attempting to prove in that thread I was talking about earlier. Still might paste some of my thoughts from that thread into this one eventually.
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Right...


    .
     
  15. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask you this. There is before the thousand years, there is during the thousand years, and there is after the thousand years. When are you proposing the beast initially ascends out of the pit? Keeping in mind, once it ascends out of the pit it leads to it's 42 month reign eventually, where that reign is followed by the 2nd coming.

    I propose it initially ascends out of the pit prior to the beginning of the thousand years. That absolutely cannot work with Amil, though. Why? Because Amil has the beginning of the thousand years around the time of the cross, and that when John was given these visions, it was post the cross, and that the status of the beast at the time was that it is not, meaning it was in the pit. But it can certainly work with Premil, though.
     
  16. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Both you and DavidPT are wrong. It is Satan.

    Revelation 20:1-3 KJV
    [1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    [2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    [3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    Revelation 20:7 KJV
    [7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    People with the spirit of Antichrist are part of the beast which is the body of Satan, personify! Just like we, Christians with the spirit of Christ, are the body of Christ! Satan was restrained so that Christians can go forth to the world with the Gospel and save (spoil) people out of Satan's bondage. So when the time for Satan to come out, the beast or locusts come out along with him. You are confused because you are trying to create Satan and the beasts as separate entities.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I'm grasping what you are getting at, yet at the same time, I'm not certain what you are proposing is even logical. In Revelation 19, there is the beast and it's armies, and there is the false prophet. So who are the armies?
     
  18. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Until you grasp apocalyptic language you are never going to comprehend the book Revelation. What is more: until you grasp the various recaps you are never going to comprehend the book Revelation. You reject both. That is why you hold on for grim death to the Premil theory.

    Like every other chapter in the Bible, Revelation 9 supports the Amil position. Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact, the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [Gr. abussos]. And he opened the bottomless pit [Gr. abussos]; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

    Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that Satan and his demons are in the pit before the second coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

    Before proceeding any further, we should carefully note a few things here which most commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” gained direct rule and authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth.

    Revelation 9:11 gives us more detail confirming that we are looking at the restrained kingdom of darkness: “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abyss [Gr. abussos], whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

    Revelation 9:1-3 shows the abyss occupied now by Satan and his minions prior to the last trumpet. It also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Remember Abaddon/Apollyon is a king. This king is obviously head over a kingdom (that is what king's rule over) so what kingdom or domain and subjects and territory does he rule over? This is no natural king but a spiritual king. If it is a spiritual king it must either be Christ or Satan - the only two rulers over the two conflicting spiritual kingdoms. We know that Christ is not on earth since His ascent and definitely not in the abyss. There can surely be no doubt that this is Satan.

    We cannot help but conclude, the angel (or star) that descends in Revelation 9:1-3 is given immediate authority over Satan (Abaddon / Apollyon) and his angels (symbolic represented in this passage as locust/scorpion-type creatures), who in turn are presently in the abyss realm. The one major difficulty for Premils here is that this passage expressly locates Satan and his minions in the abyss prior to the coming of the Lord, as Amillennialism believes and not after that as Premillennialism mistakenly argues.

    Through his defeat, Satan fell from heaven (John 12:31 & Revelation 12:7-9) and is now present in the Abyss (Revelation 9:1-11 & Revelation 20:3). The abyss is not a physical geographical place. After all, physical metal chains cannot hold spirits. It is a spiritual state of restraint for spirits now. Near the end, the beast will be released from his restraints and the “deadly wound” to his head will be “healed” (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14). This tells us that he too was bruised like Satan’s head through the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

    Just like Satan’s power and influence were curtailed through the life, death and first resurrection of Christ, so too was the beast’s. The fate of the two mirror each other. The reason is, the beast is dependent upon the power of Satan to do his evil. The beast is his envoy or enforcer. At the end Satan will be released from his restraint to empower the beast to subjugate the Church, curtail the Gospel expanse and deceive the nations again.

    When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-21:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).
     
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  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I believe it is Satan, which is found in Revelation 11:7.


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  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I can't figure out what you believe or don't believe. One minute you appear to be a agreeing with me that the beast and satan are not the same entity. The next minute you seem to change your mind, such as in this post. I'm sure the misunderstanding is on my part, since it's hard to follow what your position really is. This is why I like to ask specific questions, hoping I might get answers to what I'm asking, so that way a person's position is clear rather than misunderstood. But you don't ever seem to want to answer some of the things I specifically asked, such as what I asked in post #15, for example.
     
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