Amillennialism

[LittleLambofJesus]

Revelation 9:
11 and they have over them a King — the messenger of the Abyss —
a name [is] to him in Hebrew, Abaddon,
and in the Greek he hath a name, Apollyon/destroyer.

Titus & Vespasian = Apollyon & Abaddon ?

That is possible.
The only other event that appears to come close to the holocaust of the Jews in 70ad, would probably be the holocaust in WWII

This sounds like a huge number of Jews for that time period of 70ad [and that is probably not counting the Jews killed in other parts of Judea and Israel]

"Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND,"

The fact that the siege by Titus started on the Passover is if even more compelling:

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm
The Destruction of Jerusalem
The Destruction Of JERUSALEM An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY: INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS

*snip*

Vespasian, after proceeding as far as Jericho, returned to Caesarea, in order to make preparation for his grand attempt against Jerusalem. While he was thus employed, he received intelligence of the death of Nero......................

Thus the Almighty gave the Jews a second respite, which continued nearly two years; but they repented not of their crimes, neither were they in the least degree reclaimed,
but rather proceeded to acts of still greater enormity.
The flame of civil dissension again burst out and, With more dreadful fury......................
Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. ............................

At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the City.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity..........................

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover
The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly

The Destroyer is mentioned in the event of the Israelites "Passover" and the death of the first born of Egypt, including Pharaoh' own son :

Exodus 12:23
And Yahweh passes to strike the Egyptians
and He sees the blood on the lintel and on two of the jambs
and Yahweh passes over/06452 pacach the portal
and not He shall allow the destroyer to come to houses of ye to strike.
[Luke 21:28/Revelation 9:11]

http://biblehub.com/topical/d/destroyer.htm

Greek

3644. olothreutes -- a destroyer
... a destroyer. Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: olothreutes Phonetic
Spelling: (ol-oth-ryoo-tace') Short Definition: a destroyer Definition: a ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3644.htm - 6k
623. Apolluon -- "a destroyer," Apollyon, the angel of the abyss
... "a destroyer," Apollyon, the ... Word Origin active participle of apollumi Definition
"a destroyer," Apollyon, the angel of the abyss NASB Word Usage Apollyon (1). ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/623.htm - 6k

3. Abaddon -- Abaddon, the angel of the abyss
... Proper Noun, Indeclinable Transliteration: Abaddon Phonetic Spelling: (ab-ad-dohn')
Short Definition: Abaddon Definition: Abaddon, Destroyer (ie Destroying ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3.htm - 6k

Strong's Hebrew

7703. shadad -- to deal violently with, despoil, devastate, ruin
... ruin NASB Word Usage assaults (1), completely destroyed (1), dead (1), desolate
(1), despoil (1), destroy (7), destroyed (12), destroyer (9), destroyer still ...
/hebrew/7703.htm - 6k
8154. shasah -- to spoil, plunder
... destroyer, rob, spoiler. Or shasah (Isa. 10:13) {shaw-saw'}; a primitive root;
to plunder -- destroyer, rob, spoil(-er). 8153, 8154. ...
/hebrew/8154.htm - 6k

6530. parits -- violent one
... destroyer, ravenous, robber. From parats; violent, ie A tyrant -- destroyer, ravenous,
robber. see HEBREW parats. 6529, 6530. parits. 6531 . Strong's Numbers
/hebrew/6530.htm - 6k

7843. shachath -- perhaps to go to ruin
... corruptly (1), acting corruptly (1), blemished animal (1), corrupt (8), corrupted
(4), depravity (1), destroy (69), destroyed (14), destroyer (4), destroyers (1 ...
/hebrew/7843.htm - 6k

 

[Erik Nelson]

Michael Heiser argues that Jesus was born on 11 September 3 BC. John the Baptist would have been born 6 months earlier, about Passover of 3 BC.

IF so, then Jerusalem was encircled on the 72nd birthday of John, and sacked on the 72nd birthday of Jesus. 72 is a significant number, representing the number of gentile nations in the Table of Nations of Genesis 10

 

[Erik Nelson]

That is possible.
The only other event that appears to come close to the holocaust of the Jews in 70ad, would probably be the holocaust in WWII

This sounds like a huge number of Jews for that time period of 70ad [and that is probably not counting the Jews killed in other parts of Judea and Israel]


The fact that the siege by Titus started on the Passover is if even more compelling:

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm
The Destruction of Jerusalem
The Destruction Of JERUSALEM An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY: INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS

*snip*

Vespasian, after proceeding as far as Jericho, returned to Caesarea, in order to make preparation for his grand attempt against Jerusalem. While he was thus employed, he received intelligence of the death of Nero......................

Thus the Almighty gave the Jews a second respite, which continued nearly two years; but they repented not of their crimes, neither were they in the least degree reclaimed,
but rather proceeded to acts of still greater enormity.
The flame of civil dissension again burst out and, With more dreadful fury......................
Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. ............................

At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the City.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity..........................

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover
The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly

The Destroyer is mentioned in the event of the Israelites "Passover" and the death of the first born of Egypt, including Pharaoh' own son :

Exodus 12:23
And Yahweh passes to strike the Egyptians
and He sees the blood on the lintel and on two of the jambs
and Yahweh passes over/06452 pacach the portal
and not He shall allow the destroyer to come to houses of ye to strike.
[Luke 21:28/Revelation 9:11]

http://biblehub.com/topical/d/destroyer.htm

Greek

3644. olothreutes -- a destroyer
... a destroyer. Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: olothreutes Phonetic
Spelling: (ol-oth-ryoo-tace') Short Definition: a destroyer Definition: a ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3644.htm - 6k
623. Apolluon -- "a destroyer," Apollyon, the angel of the abyss
... "a destroyer," Apollyon, the ... Word Origin active participle of apollumi Definition
"a destroyer," Apollyon, the angel of the abyss NASB Word Usage Apollyon (1). ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/623.htm - 6k

3. Abaddon -- Abaddon, the angel of the abyss
... Proper Noun, Indeclinable Transliteration: Abaddon Phonetic Spelling: (ab-ad-dohn')
Short Definition: Abaddon Definition: Abaddon, Destroyer (ie Destroying ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3.htm - 6k

Strong's Hebrew

7703. shadad -- to deal violently with, despoil, devastate, ruin
... ruin NASB Word Usage assaults (1), completely destroyed (1), dead (1), desolate
(1), despoil (1), destroy (7), destroyed (12), destroyer (9), destroyer still ...
/hebrew/7703.htm - 6k
8154. shasah -- to spoil, plunder
... destroyer, rob, spoiler. Or shasah (Isa. 10:13) {shaw-saw'}; a primitive root;
to plunder -- destroyer, rob, spoil(-er). 8153, 8154. ...
/hebrew/8154.htm - 6k

6530. parits -- violent one
... destroyer, ravenous, robber. From parats; violent, ie A tyrant -- destroyer, ravenous,
robber. see HEBREW parats. 6529, 6530. parits. 6531 . Strong's Numbers
/hebrew/6530.htm - 6k

7843. shachath -- perhaps to go to ruin
... corruptly (1), acting corruptly (1), blemished animal (1), corrupt (8), corrupted
(4), depravity (1), destroy (69), destroyed (14), destroyer (4), destroyers (1 ...
/hebrew/7843.htm - 6k

the "destroyer Angel" against Egypt of the physical Exodus "spiritualizes" according to Revelation to spiritual Egypt / Sodom / Babylon / Jerusalem where the Crucifixion occurred.

The destruction of Jerusalem allowed Christians to escape to Pella and avoid organized persecution until the 3rd century AD under Decius & Diocletian (who methodically attacked every Church, every Pastor, and every copy of Scripture, no single complete Bible having survived his purges, leaving behind only 25,000 fragments thereof).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I found this while translating Revelation.
It harmonizes quite nicely with the Olivet Discourse in Matt, Mark and Luke.
Discuss?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...emblies-churches.8064465/page-3#post-72902715

YLT)
Matthew 24:6
and ye shall begin to hear of wars, and reports of wars; see, be not troubled, for it behoveth all [these] to come to pass, but the end<5056> is not yet.

13 but he who did endure to the end<5046>, he shall be saved;
14 and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive.

Mark 13
7 and when ye may hear of wars and reports of wars, be not troubled, for these behove to be, but the end<5046> [is] not yet;
13 and ye shall be hated by all because of my name, but he who hath endured to the end<5056> — he shall be saved.

Luke 21
9 and when ye may hear of wars and uprisings, be not terrified, for it behoveth these things to happen first, but the end<5056> [is] not immediately.’

Used 4 times in Revelation:

Revelation 1
8 ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end<5056>, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming — the Almighty.’
Revelation 2:26
and the one conquering/overcoming, and the one keeping unto the end<5056> My works,
I shall be giving to him authority over the nations,
Revelation 21
6 and He said to me, ‘It hath been done!
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the end<5056>
I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;
Revelation 22
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and end<5056> — the First and the Last.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This was posted on another thread.

You said: "The end of the world Jesus was talking about in the Discourse, is not the end of the world at the end of the thousand years." = 2 ends of the world.

It is rather confusing.
I do agree with the so called "end of the world" being before the 1000yr period. [Depends on ones biblical definition of it.]

As far as I can tell, there is only 1 great day of the LORD GOD Almighty in the OT, and it occurs before the 1000 yr period in Revelation. No argument with me on that......

Any discussion on that here? Thanks

Zephaniah 1:
7
Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD;
For the day of the LORD is at hand,
For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice;
He has invited[fn] His guests.
14
The great day of the LORD is near;
It is near and hastens quickly.
The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter;
There the mighty men shall cry out.

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

2 Peter 3:12
toward-expecting and hastening the parousian <3952> of the day of the God,
thru which heavens being-fired shall be being dissolved and elements burning being melted
[Zeph 1:15,16/Revelation 16:14]

Revelation 16:14
For they are spirits of demons doing signs which is going-out on the kings of the land, and the being-homed, whole, to-be-together-assembling them into the battle of the Day,
that the great, of the God, the Almighty. [Zephaniah 1/Ezekiel 38/39]

Isaiah 34:4
All the stars of heaven will be dissolved. The skies will be rolled up like a scroll,
and all their stars will fall like withered leaves on the vine, and foliage on the fig tree.

Revelation 6:14
The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

 

[Anto9us]

Some passages have "end of the age" "close of the age" rather than 'end of the WORLD' - the Greek word used is AION.

 

[Anto9us]

I wish this thread could be put into the "stickied section" where the other eschatological "safe houses" are. As of now the Amills do not have the same status as the pretribbers, post-tribbers, partial preterists and what have ya.

 

[brinny]

*subscribing*

Thank you for this thread LLOJ. I'll be reading it and chawing on it and commenting soon.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some passages have "end of the age" "close of the age" rather than 'end of the WORLD' - the Greek word used is AION.

Yes. Thank you for bringing that up.

#4930 is used 5 times in Matt and 1 time in Hebrews.

4930. sunteleia soon-tel'-i-ah from 4931; entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
Strong's Number G4930 matches the Greek συντέλεια (synteleia), which occurs 6 times in 6 verses

1 of those at the very beginning of the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24:

Matthew 24:3
Of-sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives, came toward to Him the disciples according pto-own saying, "Be telling! to us when these shall be.
And what?! the sign of-the Thy parousiaV <3952>,
and *of-the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age/aiwnoV <165>?"

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to be keeping all as much as I command to ye.
And behold! I with ye am all the days, till the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age/aiwnoV <165>. Amen [Matt 24:3]

Hebrews 8:8
"For faulting to-them, He is saying:, `Behold, days are coming, is saying Lord, and I shall-be-together-finishing/sun-telesw <4931> (5692) upon the house of Israel, and upon the house of Judah a New Covenant"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I wish this thread could be put into the "stickied section" where the other eschatological "safe houses" are. As of now the Amills do not have the same status as the pretribbers, post-tribbers, partial preterists and what have ya.

Pssst, I would rather it stay un stickied for now...........

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*subscribing*

Thank you for this thread LLOJ. I'll be reading it and chawing on it and commenting soon.

Hi brinny and welcome.
Not sure if others here are aware that I am in the process of translating Revelation.
I am currently on chapt 2 concerning the 1st 4 assemblies.
I am not interpreting it, but rather trying to harmonize it with the OT and NT, and focusing on key words to see where they are used elsewhere. Here is the link for those interested:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/revelation-chapter-2-1st-four-assemblies-churches.8064465
May 16, 2018

 

[brinny]

Hi brinny and welcome.
Not sure if others here are aware that I am in the process of translating Revelation.
I am currently on chapt 2 concerning the 1st 4 assemblies.
I am not interpreting it, but rather trying to harmonize it with the OT and NT, and focusing on key words to see where they are used elsewhere. Here is the link for those interested:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/revelation-chapter-2-1st-four-assemblies-churches.8064465
May 16, 2018

Thanks LLOJ

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks LLOJ

It is a work in progress.
I particularly like looking at the meaning of the words used for the 7 Assemblies.
Look at Smyna:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ur-assemblies-churches.8064465/#post-72738395

Smyrna means “sweet smelling” and comes from the root word for myrrh.

The word "myrrh" is only used 3 times in the NT.
At the birth of Jesus, at the cross and at His burial

 

[brinny]

It is a work in progress.
I particularly like looking at the meaning of the words used for the 7 Assemblies.
Look at Smyna:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ur-assemblies-churches.8064465/#post-72738395

Smyrna means “sweet smelling” and comes from the root word for myrrh.

The word "myrrh" is only used 3 times in the NT.
At the birth of Jesus, at the cross and at His burial

Ok, that's interesting about Smyrna, thanks.

But when you get into the numbers things i gets lost in da sauce LOL!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ok, that's interesting about Smyrna, thanks.

But when you get into the numbers things i gets lost in da sauce LOL!

Me too
Right now I am on the 4th Assembly, which has the infamous "Jezebel" spirit in it.
It is the longest message of the 7 Assemblies and where Jesus proclaims Himself Son of God.
Pretty fascinating OT history on Queen Jezebel.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...emblies-churches.8064465/page-3#post-72861647

Revelation 2:18
And to the Messenger of the Assembly in Thyatira write!
These things saith the Son of the God......................

 

[brinny]

Me too
Right now I am on the 4th Assembly, which has the infamous "Jezebel" spirit in it.
It is the longest message of the 7 Assemblies and where Jesus proclaims Himself Son of God.
Pretty fascinating OT history on Queen Jezebel.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...emblies-churches.8064465/page-3#post-72861647

Revelation 2:18
And to the Messenger of the Assembly in Thyatira write!
These things saith the Son of the God......................

Yes, it's interesting about Jezebel, but you lost me on the "4th assembly" thing.

 

[Anto9us]

Then we remained unstickied.
So let it be written, so let it be done.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, it's interesting about Jezebel, but you lost me on the "4th assembly" thing.

Sorry. #4 out of the 7. Supposedly they are in order of the route Paul took on his missionary journies?
aka "Church" ehehe.

1577. ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church.

 

[brinny]

Sorry. #4 out of the 7. Supposedly they are in order of the route Paul took on his missionary journies?
aka "Church" ehehe.

1577. ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church.

Thanks LLOJ, but i have a problem understanding it. i've never studied Paul's journeys or how many.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks LLOJ, but i have a problem understanding it. i've never studied Paul's journeys or how many.

I haven't really studied too much on that either. I would just do a google search.
Ok, back to the Amill topic ehehehe

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/biblemaps/13