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I can't say where the lake of fire is as it is described in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, although I can say with assurance that both death and hell are ultimately cast into the lake of fire and that this is considered the second death.LittleLambofJesus said:Where do you think this "Lake of Fire" is?
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm
[SIZE=+1]LUKE 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'" [/SIZE]
ETide said:therese,
You believe that the events described in Rev 20 are taking place now. That's fine, you're entitled to that belief. It is what you believe and you have shared some reasons why you believe this way, and of course there are many others that believe the same way that you do.
Let me ask you this, is there any possibility at all that you may be incorrect..?
Anyway, I have obviously also shared reasons as to why I believe that the events described in Rev 20 pertain to future events. I believe that there are clear scriptural evidences supporting this position.
Is there the possibility that I am incorrect. Absolutely, although again, the scriptural support for these things seems to be overwhelming in my estimation.
You do not believe that.
So what, it's not a big deal to me. I am not out to convince you of anything, that's the job of the Spirit of God.. He leads us into all truth and of things to come.
I have no desire to debate, but rather to share our positions as we understand them.
This is profitable to both camps as they can see both sides of the fence so to speak.
So, have at it..
ETide said:As for genre, yes, I understand what that is, although all scripture is God breathed and is living, it abides. It's not a static or lifeless document that fits into a category. If that's what you believe about the Revelation of Jesus Christ, then you are sadly mistaken in my estimation.
Scripture is spiritually discerned and it is living. Let me say that again, it is LIVING. It is just as living and powerful to me as it was to a brother or a sister IN CHRIST in the first century.
You may not believe that, and again, that's fine, I'm not out to convince you of anything.
I have not even begun to exahust the vast and unserachable riches of Christ which are found in Him and in His living and abiding word.
So, to suggest that the living and powerful word of God which we have in the Revelation of Jesus Christ is of some sort of genre, or category, simply misses the immensity and limitless living nature of it altogether.. again, in my estimation at least.
If you are interested, I am actually discussing the book of revelation and the NT with the jews over here.ETide said:Simple answer therese, NO, I do not limit the living and powerful word of God to a genre, a category.
AND, I didn't say that you embrace any of the things that I mentioned. I was simply sharing my thoughts on the matter.
If you want to plug the Revelation of Jesus Christ into a favorite genre of yours, then byt all means go ahead. I chose not to do that, I choose to read it prayerfully and carefully and simply ask for the Lord's help in letting it speak to me in a living and powerful way.
He's got a great voice, does He not..?
ETide said:Simple answer therese, NO, I do not limit the living and powerful word of God to a genre, a category.
AND, I didn't say that you embrace any of the things that I mentioned. I was simply sharing my thoughts on the matter.
If you want to plug the Revelation of Jesus Christ into a favorite genre of yours, then byt all means go ahead. I chose not to do that, I choose to read it prayerfully and carefully and simply ask for the Lord's help in letting it speak to me in a living and powerful way.
He's got a great voice, does He not..?
thereselittleflower said:The bible cannot be limited to one genre . .
But the various books in the bible fall into different genres.
Now, given your answer, I assume that you mean that the books of the bible do not fall into any genres. . . am I right?
Is there any possiblity that you are wrong about this?
I don't plug the book of Revelation into a favorite genre . . it is not my doing.
Tell me, let's take this down to more of a focused level
Do you believe there are figures of speach in the scriptures? Do you believe everything Jesus said was LITERAL?
Matthew 18:8-10Do you believe Jesus meant that we should LITERALLY pluck out our eyes, cut off our hands and feet?
8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
Peace
yesterdog said:And the amillennial view is Augustinian.
Am I correct?
ETide said:When looking at the context of Revelation 20, it becomes obvious that there are a few things tied together here.. ie, they're basically inseparable in the text.
This is why amillennialists insist that Satan is currently bound, and that the First resurrection has already taken place.. because if we're already in the thousand year reign of Christ, as they claim that we are.. then these other things must also follow.. that Satan is bound, and that the first resurrection is past already..
In my estimation, it's fairly easy to show from the scriptures that Satan is not currently bound, and that the first resurrection has not yet taken place.
Amillennialists will obviously differ..
ETide said:What I mean is this therese, I do not limit any book of the bible in any way. I consider it the living and abiding word of God. I understand distinctions between books of the Law, books of the prophets, the psalms, proverbs, etc.. although they're still all limitless and dynamic in their ability to speak the heart and mind of God's people.
I hope that I've made it clear that there is always a possibility of myself being wrong, I am not perfect, I am not God, but I do know that I have Christ in me, my hope of glory, and I know that the spirit of God leads me in understanding and in truth when I humble myself before Him and His word.
Again, I would hope that you too can admit the possibility that you're wrong about this.
Who does then, another man or woman who is just as we are..?
In the portion you refer to, it would certainly "be better" for a man to pluck out his eye or cut off his hand rather than be cast into hell fire.. certainly that's literal.
There are many things in scripture that are given as examples.. The Lord says that He is the bread of life although I know that He isn't a loaf of bread. He is said to be the true vine although I know that He is not a literal vine. He is said to be the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world although I know that He is not a Lamb.
I find it interesting that the catholic doctrine believes that they literally turn a piece of bread into the flesh and blood of Christ... although many remember Christ in His death every first day of the week and simply receive the elements of the bread and wine as a reminder of His body and of His blood that was shed.
ETide said:Dave,
If we look to the writings of men, then we'll find all sorts of things, beliefs, etc.
take Irenaeus for example.. I can show you where he believes in the presence of Christ in the eucharist AND that he believed in a literal thousand year reign of Christ in terrestrial Jerusalem..
thereselittleflower said:when you talk about the writings of men, you are, of course meaning the understanding of those men set down in writing, right?
But what you are offering us is YOUR understanding set down in writing here in thsi thread. .
You are a man . . you are offering us the writings of man, your own.
Now, what makes what you are offerieng any better than what you are calling the writings of men?
Peace
thereselittleflower said:Yet you cannot show Irenaes ever writing about:
Irenaeus' version of premillenialism was very different and ultimately rejected by the Church soon after .. it is important to keep in mind that the Church was under persecution so did not focus to heavily on eschatology, but when the persecutions finally ceased, they dealt with the problems in understanding.
- a rebuilt earthly temple with animal sacrifices,
- mortals surviving the 2nd Coming,
- multiple resurrections of different groups of believers at different times,
- Satan being bound by a literal chain after the 2nd Coming,
- the Gog/Magog battle occuring a literal 1000 years after the 2nd Coming,
- a continuation of the curse of Creation after the 2nd Coming,
- mortals and immortals co-existing upon the Earth after the 2nd Coming,
- Israel being promoted in a leadership role over the nations,
- sin death and rebellion continuing upon the Earth after the 2nd Coming, etc...)....
Dave Taylor
In fact, the Apostle John is told to have left a bathhouse in anger refusng to be in the same space as a prominent chilaist so vehemnetly did he reject what you embrace . .and it is his words you are using to do so. . .
Are you aware of this? Why are you using the words of the Apostle John when it was well known in the Early Church that he rejected what you embrace?
Peace
ETide said:Do you actually believe that the nations of this world are not deceived at this time.. ? ? Seriously.
ETide said:Again, this makes a good point.. it really doesn't mean a whole lot if Irenaeus says something or not, he is not God.
And again therese, you speak as if the RCC is 'the' church of God, when you speak of the church rejecting certain things.. but you know what.. they're men too.. fallible men.. I know that the catholics believe in apostolic succession and that they're the true church of God etc etc etc.. although that's not the church of God as scripture describes it.. although I'm sure that you believe otherwise..
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