Amillennialism Safe House

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you are not Amill do not ask questions or post here.

BAB. I am Amill and Partial Preterist.
Since you insist I not post here, I will ask on the public Amill threads..
Bye bye

 

[BABerean2]

BAB. I am Amill and Partial Preterist.
Since you insist I not post here, I will ask on the public Amill threads..
Bye bye

Based on most of your posts that I have seen, you would be more likely to be labeled as a "Full-Preterist" by many people here.
If you are not a Full-Preterist, you are really close to that position.

You cannot be both Amill and also a "Full-Preterist", based on my understanding.

I am not insisting that you not post here.
That would be determined by the moderators.

.

 

[mkgal1]

There seems to be confusion about WHAT amillennialism is and how it intersects with preterism (as @ebedmelech mentioned earlier - the two aren't at odds, but actually, often go hand-in-hand).

Amillennialism
The kingdom began with Christ’s birth and will be consummated at his Second Coming.

What Is Orthodox Preterism?

By Nick Peters
2017

Preterism on the other hand refers to past fulfillment. We believe the majority of prophecy has been fulfilled in the coming of Christ and is being fulfilled right now.

[that is orthodox preterism]

There are people out there that call themselves Full Preterist, True Preterists, or just Preterists. I prefer to call them “Neo-Hymenaeans.” These people think there is no future resurrection, we’re in our new bodies now, and there is no future return of Jesus physically. My friend DeeDee Warren at the Preteristsite.com has the best material in dealing with this group that is a full heresy.

Preterists like myself are considered futurists since we believe some things are future.

I happen to agree with him. This view is heretical.
~ quoted from: Why I Call Myself A Preterist - Deeper Waters​

See the difference?

ETA: A great resource for information on amillennialism (that @ebedmelech referred to earlier) is this one: Riddleblog - Reformed Amillennialism

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

My friend DeeDee Warren at the Preteristsite.com has the best material in dealing with this group that is a full heresy.
Preterists like myself are considered futurists since we believe some things are future.
I happen to agree with him. This view is heretical.
~ https://www.deeperwatersapologetics.com/?p=7080
See the difference?

Hello mkgal. I ran into D D W many years ago when I was posting on "Theology Web".
In fact, she was writing her book on Matthew 24 at the time I was on there and she finally published it.

Most Popular Books Dee Dee Warren

• It's Not the End of the World!: A Commentary on Matthew 24 and a Response to Pop Christian Eschatology

 

[ebedmelech]

There seems to be confusion about WHAT amillennialism is and how it intersects with preterism (as @ebedmelech mentioned earlier - the two aren't at odds, but actually, often go hand-in-hand).

Amillennialism
The kingdom began with Christ’s birth and will be consummated at his Second Coming.


What Is Orthodox Preterism?

By Nick Peters
2017

Preterism on the other hand refers to past fulfillment. We believe the majority of prophecy has been fulfilled in the coming of Christ and is being fulfilled right now.

[that is orthodox preterism]

There are people out there that call themselves Full Preterist, True Preterists, or just Preterists. I prefer to call them “Neo-Hymenaeans.” These people think there is no future resurrection, we’re in our new bodies now, and there is no future return of Jesus physically. My friend DeeDee Warren at the Preteristsite.com has the best material in dealing with this group that is a full heresy.

Preterists like myself are considered futurists since we believe some things are future.

I happen to agree with him. This view is heretical.
~ https://www.deeperwatersapologetics.com/?p=7080

See the difference?

ETA: A great resource for information on amillennialism (that @ebedmelech referred to earlier) is this one: Riddleblog - Reformed Amillennialism

I'm a mixture...partial preterist and amil one could say. I don't think anyone's 100% of any view though.

 

[mkgal1]

(Revelation 13:1)
The ‘Beast’ rising from the sea of nations is the aggregation of world power into empires – the end result of secular human government, independent of, and antagonistic to God.

(Revelation 13:11-14)
The ‘Beast’ rising from the earth, is religious power arising from human wisdom, and serving the secular power (1st beast) by deceiving people into worshiping it.

To piggy-back this comment - I just reread this quote from Caird's book (The Revelation of St John, p 162) and can see how this pattern repeats (and each time it repeats - people can make the choice between the counterfeit deity or the True God):

Quote from Caird's book mentioned above: "John’s point is that when empowered by the dragon, the state oversteps its bounds and deifies itself and/or its leader. As Caird puts it, “all political power is the gift of God; but when men deify the state, either directly by a religious cult or indirectly by demanding for it the total loyalty and obedience that is due to God alone, it ceases to be human and becomes bestial” (Caird, The Revelation of St. John, 162). What is in view then is primarily an anti-christian power, centered in the seat of government, using the resources of that government against Christ’s church in an effort to thwart the preaching of the gospel."​

 

[mkgal1]

Based on most of your posts that I have seen, you would be more likely to be labeled as a "Full-Preterist" by many people here.
If you are not a Full-Preterist, you are really close to that position.

One CAN be "really close to Full-preterist" without being Full.

To use a silly every-day analogy.....our gas tanks in our cars can be all sorts of degrees of "partially full" (from almost on empty to just a few drops shy of topped off). We don't say our gas tanks are "FULL" until that's true (that there's no more room left in the tank).

The SOP does a great job (IMO) defining the line of distinction between "partial preterism" (which ALL orthodox Christians that believe in Christ's birth would fall into) and "full preterism". Here's that definition:

• Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system. ~ Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

You cannot be both Amill and also a "Full-Preterist", based on my understanding.

That's true (from what I understand as well). We amillennialists believe that "Christ will come again" as stated in the creeds - which means we are STILL in the symbolic millennium. FP do not believe that. They believe it's ALL past and fulfilled. That's one of the main distinctions. Again - the SOP defines this well (I believe). About the millennial viewpoints, the SOP states:

Millennialism:

• Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.
  
  
• Premillennialism: is the belief that Jesus Christ will literally and physically be on the earth for his millennial reign at his second coming. The doctrine is called premillennialism because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium.
  
  
• Postmillennialism: is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper. ~ Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
  
  Preterists can fall under either postmill or amill (b/c there's very little distinction between the two - as I understand...but I'm still learning). I'm not quite understanding WHAT that distinction is as of yet, though, because I can actually see them as being compatible (IOW.....both believe Christ's final return is future....and both believe it will be some time AFTER the symbolic time of the millennium). At least that's my current understanding.
  
  ETA: In looking up "what's the difference between postmill and amill?" my search came up with this quote from Dr. Keith Mathison:
  
  "Strictly speaking, amillennialism is a version of postmillennialism in this sense because amillennialists believe Christ’s second coming will occur after the millennium." ~ The Millennial Maze by Keith Mathison
  
  "The main difference between the two is not so much the timing of the millennium as the nature of the millennium. In general, postmillennialism teaches that in the present age, the Holy Spirit will draw unprecedented multitudes to Christ through the faithful preaching of the gospel. Among the multitudes who will be converted are the ethnic Israelites who have thus far rejected the Messiah. At the end of the present age, Christ will return, there will be a general resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment will take place.
  
  Postmillennialism was widely held among the Puritans. It was also the dominant view among Reformed theologians of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. It was taught, for example, by men such as Jonathan Edwards, Charles Hodge, James Henley Thornwell, A.A. Hodge, and B.B. Warfield." ~ The Millennial Maze by Keith Mathison

 

[BABerean2]

Preterists like myself are considered futurists since we believe some things are future.

I happen to agree with him. This view is heretical.
~ https://www.deeperwatersapologetics.com/?p=7080

We have had some people on this forum in the past who are Full-Preterists, but posed as Partial-Preterists in order to keep posting on this forum.
If you look at what they are claiming, the truth eventually comes out and exposes their dishonesty.

Don K. Preston is a Full-Preterist who has become very popular on YouTube.

.

 

[mkgal1]

We have had some people on this forum in the past who are Full-Preterists, but posed as Partial-Preterists in order to keep posting on this forum.
If you look at what they are claiming, the truth eventually comes out.

The way I see it is....our faith is a journey. You can read through a lot of threads here and see where people have shifted in their beliefs. It takes time to study these things out.

To me....the things that should be foundational in our faith are that God is love; He provided us with the GIFT of salvation, and He is victorious. IMO.....everything else should be filtered through those beliefs.

 

[Christian Gedge]

One CAN be "really close to Full-preterist" without being Full.

To use a silly every-day analogy.....our gas tanks in our cars can be all sorts of degrees of "partially full" (from almost on empty to just a few drops shy of topped off). We don't say our gas tanks are "FULL" until that's true (that there's no more room left in the tank).

Its a good analogy because most of us have little variations. I call myself 'A-millenial' when discussing Christ's kingdom now. But I call myself 'Historicist' when discussing the fulfillment of prophecies in-between the two advents.

I find common ground with partial Preterists on the all-important 70-week prophecy, but I feel that they box themselves into the past somewhat. Why should we insist scripture has nothing to say concerning the gospel age? That's 2000 years of silence; 'not a credible position IMO.

 

[mkgal1]

I find common ground with partial Preterists on the all-important 70-week prophecy, but I feel that they box themselves into the past somewhat. Why should we insist scripture has nothing to say concerning the gospel age? That's 2000 years of silence; 'not a credible position IMO.

I agree, and I believe that's what often prompts futurists to respond with the rebuttal that "certainly God isn't 'done' " and I have to agree. He's not folded up His hands and said, "it is ALL good again" as it was in the Garden. I believe He is actively "making all things new" through Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

The way I see it is....our faith is a journey. You can read through a lot of threads here and see where people have shifted in their beliefs. It takes time to study these things out.

To me....the things that should be foundational in our faith are that God is love; He provided us with the GIFT of salvation, and He is victorious. IMO.....everything else should be filtered through those beliefs.

Listen to this when you are on a road trip, sometime.
It does a good job of showing why many consider Full-Preterism to be heretical.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Listen to this when you are on a road trip, sometime.
It does a good job of showing why many consider Full-Preterism to be heretical.

.

There are a lot of threads on the CT board to discuss that.

Just do a search for "full preterism" on there.

Controversial Christian Theology

Full Preterism Pantelism: How dangerous?

Did it cause you to lose your salvation, like being a Mormon or JW?

How dangerous are Full Preterism and Pantelism? Are they heresies? Damnable heresies? If yes, please explain & or provide evidence/proof.

"Preterism is divided into two camps: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. Full preterism takes an extreme view that all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled in one way or another. Partial preterists take a more moderate approach, and many partial preterists consider full preterists to be guilty of heresy.

Is partial preterism biblical? What do partial preterists believe?

"What is Heresy?"
Heresy | CARM.org

And there is this.

16 different views on FP......really?

https://www.preteristarchive.com/2019_site-updates/

https://www.preteristarchive.com/2016_16-different-views-of-full-preterism/

The heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment, and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state. - John Owen

16 Different Views of Full Preterism (2016)

Below, you will find the following 16 different views of full preterism, in the following alphabetical order, for your information. The person’s name after the view is the name of the one who submitted it.

1. Charismatic Preterism
2. Comprehensive Grace/Pantelism
3. Covenant Eschatology
4. Essential Body View
5. Evangelical Preterism
6. Fulfilled Revelation Theology
7. Full Revelation Bible View
8. Israel Only View
9. Literal Millennial Reign Preterism
10. Narrative-Critical Fulfilled View
11. Natural 2 Spiritual View
12. Perpetual Millennium Preterism
13. Post-Apocalyptic View
14. Preterist-Idealist
15. Synthesis Eschatology/Preterist-Idealist View
16. Temporary Ekklesia Theory

 

[ebedmelech]

K. Riddlebarger does a pretty good job in his series "Amillennialism 101" for the most part. I'm not in agreement with him trying Emperor Domitian and his persecution of the church into his eschatology... particularly Revelation.

In my study of Revelation I find two judgements to be the main thrust...the judgement of Jerusaslem/Israel...and the "great white throne judgement.

I believe we're in the 1000 year reign...which is figurative of Christ reigning since His resurrection. In this time period, we Christians can see Revelation as a pattern of how we are to walk in the world, as history has shown us great times of persecution of the church in the past and on more to come until Christ returns.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There seems to be confusion about WHAT amillennialism is and how it intersects with preterism (as @ebedmelech mentioned earlier - the two aren't at odds, but actually, often go hand-in-hand).

Amillennialism
The kingdom began with Christ’s birth and will be consummated at his Second Coming.

What Is Orthodox Preterism?
By Nick Peters2017

Preterism on the other hand refers to past fulfillment. We believe the majority of prophecy has been fulfilled in the coming of Christ and is being fulfilled right now.

[that is orthodox preterism]

There are people out there that call themselves Full Preterist, True Preterists, or just Preterists. I prefer to call them “Neo-Hymenaeans.” These people think there is no future resurrection, we’re in our new bodies now, and there is no future return of Jesus physically. My friend DeeDee Warren at the Preteristsite.com has the best material in dealing with this group that is a full heresy.

Preterists like myself are considered futurists since we believe some things are future.

I happen to agree with him. This view is heretical.
~ quoted from: https://www.deeperwatersapologetics.com/?p=7080​

See the difference?

ETA: A great resource for information on amillennialism (that @ebedmelech referred to earlier) is this one: Riddleblog - Reformed Amillennialism

K. Riddlebarger does a pretty good job in his series "Amillennialism 101" for the most part. I'm not in agreement with him trying Emperor Domitian and his persecution of the church into his eschatology... particularly Revelation.

In my study of Revelation I find too judgements to be the main thrust...the judgement of Jerusaslem/Israel...and the "great white throne judgement.

I believe we're in the 1000 year reign...which is figurative of Christ reigning since His resurrection. In this time period, we Christians can see Revelation as a pattern of how we are to walk in the world, as history has shown us great times of persecution of the church in the past and on more to come until Christ returns.

I also view 1st century Jerusalem in Revelation and why I am Partial Preterist and Amill.

Would it be fair to say that perhaps the 1st part of Reve 11:18 is concerning the wrath/judgement on Jerusalem and it's people
and the 2nd part of the verse is the GWT after Gog Magog? Thoughts?

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath<ὀργὴ <3709> upon this people.[Revelation 11:18]
=========================

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:
8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving Her blows,death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned, that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging<2919> Her
10 From afar having stood because of the fear of the tormenting of Her saying
"Woe! woe! the great City Babylon! the strong City!
That to one hour came the judging<2920> of Thee.
20 ‘Be making merry<2165> over Her, O heaven, and the Saints, the Apostles and the Prophets,
that the GOD judges<2919> the judgment<2917> of ye out of Her!’

Revelation 19:
1 After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
"HalleluYah! the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God;
2 That true and righteous His judgings<2920>, that He judges<2919> the great harlot who corrupts<5351> the land in Her whoredom, and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand".
==========================================

 

[mkgal1]

Would it be fair to say that perhaps the 1st part of Reve 11:18 is concerning the wrath/judgement on Jerusalem and it's people
and the 2nd part of the verse is the GWT after Gog Magog? Thoughts?

I'm still contemplating this. I just wanted to let you know that the question isn't being ignored.

 

[mkgal1]

Quote from Caird's book mentioned above: "John’s point is that when empowered by the dragon, the state oversteps its bounds and deifies itself and/or its leader. As Caird puts it, “all political power is the gift of God; but when men deify the state, either directly by a religious cult or indirectly by demanding for it the total loyalty and obedience that is due to God alone, it ceases to be human and becomes bestial” (Caird, The Revelation of St. John, 162). What is in view then is primarily an anti-christian power, centered in the seat of government, using the resources of that government against Christ’s church in an effort to thwart the preaching of the gospel."

This may be the best place to have this discussion - but I'm not sure how much all of you have been paying attention to Josh Harris's recent story (he's the author of I Kissed Dating Goodbye - he wrote that book at 21 years old and recently apologized for it). Even more recently - he's announced the divorce of he and his wife AND his change of faith (he can no longer call himself a "Christian" he wrote). This seems to be a common thing these days - people have discovered "cracks" in the system of their churches they were affiliated with ("cracks" like hidden sexual abuse - doctrine that was severely damaging - etc) and instead of leaving just their church, they couldn't see anything left to hold onto related to Christianity. To me......that seems to be relevant to the "loosing of Satan for a little while". Brian Zahnd wrote this article about "the formula for Atheism"

Quoting Brian Zahnd:
A few years ago the pastor of an evangelical-fundamentalist church with whom I’m acquainted announced on the Sunday after Easter that he had become an atheist. He told his stunned congregation that he had been an atheist for a year and a half and that all attempts to revive his faith had failed. So on the Sunday after Easter he publicly left Christianity and moved on with his life — a life with no more Easters.

A few days after his bombshell resignation I met with this now erstwhile pastor. As I listened to his story, it quickly became apparent that he had not so much lost his faith in Christianity as he had lost his credulity for fundamentalism. But sadly he had been formed in a tradition where Christianity and fundamentalism were so tightly bound together that he could not make a distinction between them. For this fundamentalist pastor, if the Bible wasn’t literally, historically, and scientifically factual in a biblicist-empiricist sense, then Christianity was a falsity he had to reject. When his fundamentalist house of cards collapsed, it took his Christian faith down with it. In one remarkable leap of faith, a fundamentalist became a newly minted atheist. I did my best to explain to him that he had made the modern mistake of confusing historic Christian faith with early-twentieth-century fundamentalism, but by now the damage was done and it appears his faith has suffered a fatal blow.
~ A Formula For Atheism - Brian Zahnd

Thoughts?​

 

[ebedmelech]

It sounds to me like typical "churchianity" than "Christianity". Jesus said "Many will say to me Lord lord..."

There are many who found in "church", a system or method of life that worked for them...but they never came to know Christ.

There can equally be those who "said the sinner's prayer" and were told "you're a Christian now".

No one can know for sure what's going on in these cases but one things for sure I would point to...and that's "The Parable of the Sower"....look at how Jesus explained it. The answer lies in there somewhere.

Paul said "Demas has forsaken me having loved this present world"...what's that about?

We can only...and must hold onto Christ.. who said "I will never leave you nor forsake you". How can you not succeed with Christ through anything?

THAT'S WHERE IT IS!!!

 

[mkgal1]

There are many who found in "church", a system or method of life that worked for them...but they never came to know Christ.

I think you're absolutely correct.

If people see Christianity as a formula that allows them to get out of difficulties in this life AND life eternal (for instance = well-adjusted and honorable children; a great marriage; flourishing business/career; many friends, etc) - then that house of cards WILL eventually come tumbling down. Jesus didn't promise an easy life - prayer isn't a means of escape or protection from struggles in this world. I think that's sort of a modern version of idolatry - to believe church attendance will equal the "best life". It's idolatry of the modern church culture (and worship of it causes people to be blind to the Truth).

 

[mkgal1]

(Revelation 13:1)
The ‘Beast’ rising from the sea of nations is the aggregation of world power into empires – the end result of secular human government, independent of, and antagonistic to God.

(Revelation 13:11-14)
The ‘Beast’ rising from the earth, is religious power arising from human wisdom, and serving the secular power (1st beast) by deceiving people into worshiping it.

Along the same lines of this - as an example of a repeating pattern - I've also been thinking about the repeating pattern of death and resurrection as being a repeating pattern.

We're instructed that - in the Christian life - we are to "pick up our cross and daily" . Father Richard Rohr (an ordained Franciscan) calls it "transformative dying". Here's a devotional that he wrote on the topic:

Quoting Fr. Richard Rohr:
The One Big Pattern
Wednesday, April 16, 2014

I believe that the Mystery of the Cross is saying that the pattern of transformation unto God, the pattern that connects, the life that God offers us is always death transformed. The only pattern is the pattern of death and resurrection. We submit to it with trust because Jesus did.

Augustine called this metamorphosis, this transformative pattern that is in all things, the Paschal Mystery. Catholics proclaim it as “the Mystery of Faith” at the center of every Mass: “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.” Death and life are two sides of one coin, and you cannot have one without the other. ~ Richard Rohr's Meditation: The One Big Pattern