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Featured Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by mister rogers, May 4, 2019.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The verbiage is very clear. Christ would come from heaven the same way he went INTO heaven. How did he go INTO heaven? Out of sight in a cloud.

    Acts 1:9-11 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

    This is consistent with Paul's teaching that the dead would rise and those left would be caught up together IN the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

    1 thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
     
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    How so? The old covenant is obsolete and was ready to vanish away in the 1st century.
    Hebrews 8:13 speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
     
  3. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    We agree thus far and infact supremely you are on track with what I’m currently speaking of.

    Interesting study... Wedding Feast ... Look for Feasts in the OT that bind to Revelations verbiage.

    Also, Did Jesus not Ascend from a stance of His feet touching the ground at a cited specific location, to that cloud?

    Why does it tell us that the disciples were on the mount of Olives? Does this not mean Jesus’ feet left the mount of Olives?

    We agree that He will return in a cloud. Awesome!

    Now what of the Kingdom being restored to Israel question that Jesus answered in an almost identical way to when He said; “No man knows the day nor the hour, nor even the Son”?
     
  4. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I cite the entire book of Galatians... all of it as proof that those who are under the Law are under it’s curse.

    We are freed from that curse by placing our faith in Jesus. But, what of those Paul goes on to declare are “anathema” in a cursed sense?
     
  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I agree - I have lots to study in Revelation still - but if Heaven and earth haven't passed away, then the Old Covenant wouldn't have passed away (that much I'm convinced of).

    The way I understand it now - as Parousia70 pointed out, it's mentioned in Isaiah 51:16 (much later than Genesis):

    "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."​

    God (in my belief) isn't referring to a literal heaven and earth. He's referring to the covenants made with His People. He says He gave them his law, the Old Covenant, the same law Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 5:17-18, to establish heaven and lay the foundation of the earth. God is not saying He gave the Old Covenant to Israel to create literal heaven and earth. Material creation existed long before Israel was ever given the Old Covenant.​
     
  6. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    @Grip Docility do you believe Jesus is now sitting on His rightful throne - the throne of David as promised?

    Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. "And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end." (Lu 1:30-33)​
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  7. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    When OC Jerusalem is destroyed, the wedding feast is ready
    Matthew 22:7-10 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

    Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    When the Harlot/Babylon the great is destroyed, the wedding feast is ready
    Revelation 19:2 for his judgments are true and just;for he has judged the great prostitute
    who corrupted the earth with her immorality,and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

    Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,and of all who have been slain on earth.”

    Revelation 19:7,9 7Let us rejoice and exultand give him the glory,for the marriage of the Lamb has come,and his Bride has made herself ready; And the angel saida to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God

    He did

    It does

    Depends on how one define Israel

    Under the new covenant, I would define Israel as anyone belonging to the body of Christ.

    Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

    When would the kingdom be given to this people?

    Matthew 21:43 therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit
     
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Galatians was written in the first century, when the temple was still standing, and the law was still being practiced and the jews were persecuting the church.

    No one has been able to follow the law of moses for the last 2000 years, as there has been no earthly tabernacle nor any genealogical priesthood records. This is because the law vanished away, as stated by Hebrews 8:13. It vanished away when God destroyed the temple.
     
  9. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    You answer honestly, without fear of being held to scripture as you hold it dear! Currently I have a slightly different perspective of what Israel is than full on dispensational view holds, or full on covenant view holds, thus, by that honest admission, you can see that I most likely would have some different opinions as we flesh out the back and forth to glory Jesus, through scripture.

    That being said, I’m sure we agree on much and disagree on quite a few things, but above all, we unify IN HIS Grace. This brings me joy!

    All of His blessings to you.
     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    It's always nice to find some common ground.

    what NT passage states his feet will land on the mount of olives at his return?
     
  11. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Amen!!! <3

    No NT passage, other than Acts 1 taken to its most literal inference (A fair theological choice in either direction, by Exegeses).

    However, if it is to be understood that the Earthly Israel didn’t exist when much of the OT was reviewed and Exegeted, thus it was written to the account of 70AD or before, and now Earthly Israel exists again, so much Prophecy that has been theologically muted towards Israel by over Spiritualization, can now be unmuted... Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 tell a very interesting story.

    The Lord is specifically written to come down and land as only God could and literally Split the mount of Olives in two. It almost reads of upset at what is going on and a simultaneous urgency... like, God knows how deeply He’s been excitedly waited for, and is exuberant to be returning.

    I personally believe it is written to compliment Acts 1 as Acts 1 was written to compliment it. But that is my mere opinion.
     
  12. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is confusion. The true Congregation of Israel (in Christ) has continued from old Covenant into the New Covenant, therefore the heaven and earth have not passed away until all things are fulfilled.
     
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Christ divides the spoil at his first advent

    Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death

    Zechariah 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst

    Christ stood with his feet on the mount of olives at his first advent

    Acts 1:9-12 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
    Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away

    Zechariah 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east

    The Spirit was poured out at the first advent after Christ ascended (from the mount of olives)

    John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    Zechariah 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem,

    Christ became the king of the earth at his ascension at the first advent.

    Ephesians 1:20-21that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

    Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

    Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one.

    Can you provide NT scripture that substantiates your interpretation?
     
  14. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I'm certain there are lots of things that exist in this world that God desires to not exist.
     
  15. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 20:7-15

    It does not speak of the mount of Olives, but it indeed speaks of the Revelation 20:9 of the matter that binds seamlessly with Zechariah 14:2-4, and Joel 3:1-3

    Even the living water of Zechariah 14:7-9 goes perfectly with Revelation 22:1-3 and much of Revelation 22 to be precise.

    Also, note the New Jerusalem doesn’t come down till chapter Revelation 21, while Revelation 20 speaks of Jerusalem being assembled against and defended by God.

    This is what theologically forces me to see things as I currently do.

    I don’t see Jesus as being King of the Earth, currently as Satan is cast down here and is called “god of this world” in Corinthians. Jesus said His Kingdom was not of this earth so I see it that He will bring Heavenly Jerusalem to Earthly Jerusalem and then all will be as Prophesied.
     
  16. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    But something that pertains to prophecy?

    Read Revelation 20 and note the Holy Land is spoken of, while the New Jerusalem doesn’t come down till Revelation 21

    It would be confusion for Israel to exist now, and God would not have had Revelation 20-22 read in the order it does if He didn’t intend for Israel to be re-restored which it has been, much to the dismay of most of the world!
     
  17. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Following your logic, Would you, therefore, argue that the fact there is no Jewish temple there, means God doesn't want one there?

    Pure 100% speculation.

    The Muslim dome of the rock Exists! You cant deny it! By your logic It Must, therefore, be the true Temple of God, right?

    Again, and I'm not sure how you keep missing this crucial fact, or sweeping it under the rug, or wishing it weren't true, the existence of a Multi ethnic secular democracy named Israel IN NO WAY PROVES the Pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy of Israel is "back".. in fact, it proves the OPPOSITE.

    My Chicken Named Albert ran away...
    Hey, I heard your chicken ran away, here's a duck.

    Horray! A Duck is here, I will name him Albert, which clearly proves my Chicken came back. And since God allowed me to name Him Albert, and put him in the same pen in my yard where Albert the chicken once lived, it must mean God brought my chicken Albert back.
    Hooray!

    Ummm... but its a Duck not a Chicken..

    Blasphemy! You can't deny Albert is back! Just Look with your own eyes!.. he's in the same pen, his name is Albert... therefore you can't deny It's My chicken and He's Back!

    Ummm... but it's a Duck..

    Blasphemy! Albert the Chicken is Back!

    ummm... it's a Duck...

    Of course not.. A secular Democracy thriving in the middle of a bunch of archaic, theocratic totalitarian nations states is a good thing.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  18. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    The True Temple is in Heaven and His name is Jesus. No temple on the mount required as He will return to the beautiful lands per Zechariah 14, Joel 3 and Revelation 20

    Not speculation... lay out the order of events in Revelation 20-21, then tell moth confidence that it is speculation... if you do, I am certain your are closing your eyes to an important matter, purposefully. IMO

    And as for your last statement... so now we see something eye to eye! Feels good!
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  19. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Sure. Humans take religious text and use them for their own purpose (or misunderstanding) all the time.
     
  20. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Exegete Revelation 20 - Revelation 21 with timeline honesty and correlation to biblical context and you wouldn’t suggest this about what’s being set forth.
     
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