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Featured Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by mister rogers, May 4, 2019.

  1. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Quoting from linked article:

    The New Creation: Revelation (3) Revelation 21-22
    The Bible Front to Back: Year Two
    Week 37: June 22, 2014
    This week we come to the “back” of the Front to Back
    series. We come to the final two chapters of the
    Scriptures. Ironically, the final two chapters connect
    to the first two chapters, the “front.” In Revelation 21-
    22 we read about how we get back to Genesis 1-2,
    before sin entered the world. The final pages of
    Scripture describe a new creation.
    We’ve read some incredible passages in this series—
    moving stories of God’s work in this world. But these
    final two chapters are perhaps the most moving of all.
    Bible commentator, Robert Mounce, has written of
    this passage: “The entire presentation stretches the
    limits of human vocabulary and thought to emphasize
    the glorious reality of God dwelling among his
    people.” Indeed.
    The rich imagery of Revelation continues in these
    chapters, but now the imagery is less frightening and
    more comforting in that these chapters describe the
    time when God will make things right and new. In the
    Lord’s Prayer we pray, “Thy kingdom come, thy will
    be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” These chapters
    paint a picture of how that line will be fulfilled.
    Scholar N.T. Wright in his book, Simply Christian,
    observes an interesting point about the Biblical view
    of our future: “Despite what many people think,
    within the Christian family and outside it, the point of
    Christianity isn't ‘to go to heaven when you die.’
    “The New Testament picks up from the Old the theme
    that God intends, in the end, to put the whole creation
    to rights. Earth and heaven were made to overlap with
    one another, not fitfully, mysteriously, and partially as
    they do at the moment, but completely, gloriously, and
    utterly. … The great drama will end, not with ‘saved
    souls’ being snatched up into heaven, away from the
    wicked earth and mortal bodies which have dragged
    them down into sin, but with the New Jerusalem
    coming down from heaven to earth, so that ‘the
    dwelling of God is with humans.’” (p.217)
    - Meet Google Drive – One place for all your files
     
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  2. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    Wait, what does this have to do with Revelation 20 - Revelation 21 being exegeted by yourself personally to see what it’s talking about?
     
  3. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Correct, it does not speak of the mount of olives.

    John clearly explains that the living water is the receiving of the spirit by those who believe in Jesus

    John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, asf the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    Additionally, we can see that the New Jerusalem is the body of Christ, if we use scripture to interpret scripture.

    1.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are the Bride of the lamb
    Revelation 20:9-10 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

    Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.


    2.)Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are built on the foundations of the prophets
    Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone

    3.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are where God dwells with his people.
    Revelation 21:3 Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God

    Ephesians 2:21 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

    2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


    Even if you don't see it, He is.

    Scripture states he is above ALL rule and authority and power and dominion NOT ONLY IN THIS AGE, but the age to come.
    Ephesians 1:20-21 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

    He is the ruler of the kings of the earth.
    Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

    There a many "gods" in this world, only Christ is the true God.
     
  4. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Sorry. I'm on my phone right now - and posting isn't the easiest this way (it may be best if I had waited to post). I wasn't responding specifically to your request for exegesis of Rev 20-21.

    The main point I wanted to make by quoting that was this (from N.T. Wright's book, Simply Christian) this is a meta-narrative of the entire Bible (we believe):

    “Despite what many people think,
    within the Christian family and outside it, the point of
    Christianity isn't ‘to go to heaven when you die.’
    The New Testament picks up from the Old the theme
    that God intends, in the end, to put the whole creation
    to rights
    . Earth and heaven were made to overlap with
    one another
    , not fitfully, mysteriously, and partially as
    they do at the moment, but completely, gloriously, and
    utterly. … The great drama will end, not with ‘saved
    souls’ being snatched up into heaven, away from the
    wicked earth and mortal bodies which have dragged
    them down into sin, but with the New Jerusalem
    coming down from heaven to earth, so that ‘the
    dwelling of God is with humans.’” (p.217)​
     
  5. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    To be sincere, the context of Revelation 20 - 22 is abundantly clear when laid out in timeline.

    His throne isn’t on the earth, yet. He, Jesus, is the temple, so to say that He is King is to suggest that His Temple is present.

    We both agree He hasn’t returned yet, so I can sincerely continue to perceive what I am perceiving, scripturally, while simultaneously respecting your perspective.
     
  6. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    In the theology of amillenialism (as well as Franciscan theology) this verse is foundational:

    He who was seated on the throne said, ‘I am making everything new!Revelation 21:5


    In his book Surprised by Hope, N. T. Wright wrote, “Easter was when Hope in person surprised the whole world by coming forward from the future into the present.”1

    The mission of the church is to bring the future into the present.

    Every church is an ever-expanding outpost and colony of heaven. At the church where I serve, we want the architect of heaven to have to redesign the city to prepare for the number of people we plan on bringing with us!

    You are God’s commercial, God’s cameo of what is and what is to come; you are the poster child of the already and the not yet.

    Years ago, when Christians built a church, they would put the cemetery in the front yard. Every Sunday when they gathered, they were reminded that we have to walk through death to get to the new life.

    One life at a time, we are bringing the future into the present. To return to N. T. Wright, he articulated it this way in his book Simply Christian:

    “Resurrection” doesn’t mean “going to heaven when you die”… It is certainly not about keeping the commands of a distant deity. Rather, it is the new way of being human, the Jesus-shaped way of being human, the cross-and-resurrection way of life, the Spirit-led pathway. It is the way which anticipates, in the present, the full, rich, glad human existence, which will one day be ours when God makes all things new. Christian ethics is not a matter of discovering what’s going on in the world and getting in tune with it. It isn’t a matter of doing things to earn God’s favor. It is not about trying to obey dusty rulebooks from long ago or far away. It is about practicing, in the present, the tunes we shall sing in God’s new world.2

    My good friend Garrett has endured thirty-seven surgeries in the last twenty years. Doctors have replaced everything they can replace that is broken. His body has deteriorated but hasn’t died. He is in constant pain, but at the same time, he is a constant source of joy for everyone he meets. He doesn’t feel sorry for himself. He doesn’t beg for sympathy. He knows his current body is not his permanent body. Someday God will give him a new body.

    And that’s why instead of describing heaven as a place, John described it as a people. The place is the people.

    In Revelation, John described heaven using the number twelve, which is used elsewhere in Revelation to describe the people of God. This new city will have twelve gates and twelve foundations. It will be 12,000 stadia, by 12,000 stadia, by 12,000 stadia in dimension. Everywhere you look at John’s description of the city, you see the number twelve, which means every time you see heaven, you see the people of God. ~ Hope: The Already and the Not Yet
    *************************
    Personally, I believe God is *making all things new* as a continual process with us, His People, actively participating. Every time a person acts according to His will - we are bringing His kingdom to earth. I believe He is already seated on His throne - but the rest is an ongoing process.
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Re-posting for the “Israel is back” crowd, because, I love analogies.

    My Chicken Named Albert ran away...

    Hey, I heard your chicken ran away, look, there's a duck.

    Horray! A Duck is here, I will name him Albert, which clearly proves my Chicken came back. And since God allowed me to name Him Albert, and put him in the same pen in my yard where Albert the chicken once lived, it must mean God brought my chicken Albert back.
    Hooray!

    Ummm... but its a Duck not a Chicken..

    Blasphemy! You can't deny Albert is back! Just Look with your own eyes!.. he's in the same pen, his name is Albert... therefore you can't deny It's My chicken and He's Back!

    Ummm... but it's a Duck..

    Blasphemy! Albert the Chicken is Back!

    ummm... it's a Duck...
     
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  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    wait... you agree that Modern Israel is a Multi-ethnic Secular Democracy and not the Hebrew Theocracy that once shared the same name and similar geography?

    Do we see eye to eye on that?

    Maybe we are making progress after all, you and I!
     
  9. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Yes we are........This verse is in the present tense to the 1st century pre 70ad Jewish Christians:

    Colossians 1:26

    The Mystery having been hid from the ages and from the generations now yet was made manifest to the holy-ones of Him. 27 To-whom wills, the GOD, to make known any the riches of the glory of the Mystery, this, in the Nations which is Christ in ye the hope of glory.

    And Reve 10:7:

    The 7 TRUMPETS of REVELATION STUDY

    Revelation 10:7
    But in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when-ever he may be being about to be trumpeting, also is finished<5055> the Mystery of GOD, as He brings good-news to His bond-servants, the prophets.
    ===========================
    This is also in the present tense for the 1st century Christian Jews.
    The Jews of today would understand this IF they would read the NT


    Hebrews 12:
    22 But ye have come toward Zion, to a Mountain and City of God, a living Jerusalem
    and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable multitudes of angels,
    23 to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.

    The 1st century Jewish believers/elect with the Lambkin on Mt Zion

    Revelation 14:1 And I look, and behold! a Lambkin having stood upon the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty-four thousand,
    ==========================
    Symbolism in the Jewish Hebrew book of Revelation......

    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

    THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

    One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
    That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

    95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
    That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!
    ==================================================
    Here are some of the ones I have come up with. Please feel free to add or comment on them.

    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Books in Daniel Daniel 7:9 and 11:10.
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Cried and joy Temple/City: Ezra 3:12,13 and Reve 18:18, 19:4
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Ear to hear: Isaiah 6:9,10 and Matt 13:15, Reve 2,3,13
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Holy Holy Holy Isaiah 6:6 and Revelation 4:8
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Jericho, Priest and Trumpets: Joshua 6:4, Hebrews 11:30, Matt 24:31, Reve 8:6
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Lift hands to heaven and swore..: Daniel 2:7 and Reve 10:5
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Light Revelation to Israel and Nations: Isaiah 9:2, Luke 2:32, Reve 1:1
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Moses and Elijah, fire falling, as is also seen in Revelation.
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Moses and Elijah
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Mountain of fire cast into Sea
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Pierced: Zech 12:10 and Reve 1:7
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Sacrifice/Supper of God: Ezek 39:17 and Reve 19:17
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Sanctuary/Tabernacle filled with smoke
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Silence/Hush: Zech 1:7, 2:13 and Reve 8:1
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Sodom and Egypt: Matt 2:15, Reve 11:8
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Song of Moses: Exodus 15:1 and Revelation 15:3
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Spirit lifting, taking Ezekiel and John
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Stars 7
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Tree of Life and Garden: Genesis 3:24 and Reve 2:7
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Whip.........Nahum 3:2, John 2:15,
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  10. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    It is both a democracy and a theocracy, still depending on other nations, instead of God for its National Security and Salvational Security.

    It’s the Same Israel we read about, God is contending for, but keeps ignoring His genuine offer to plant them eternally strong and BE THEIR King.

    They are just as wayward as before and this makes it even more intimate with scripture!

    IMO
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    In what way is it a Theocracy? and what religion is it a Theocracy of?
     
  12. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    You already know the answer. It’s a theology that is Enemy of the Gospel. But they read the Tanakh, which is identical to your Old Testament.

    I understand your point. But be assured I’m too scripturally swayed to look away from what is happening.

    Revelation 20 is just the tip of the iceberg.
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    A future literal "thousand years" period is taught nowhere in scripture. You can't find it in the Old Testament. You can't find it in the gospels or the epistles. The only mention of such is Rev 20, in which the "thousand years" is one of the book's many symbolic images.

    It is crucial to note that the gospels and epistles explicitly teach that the resurrection, the "New Heavens/Earth," and the judgment all take place at the coming of Christ. They are not separated out in any fashion by any future thousand-years period as millennialists would have it.

    As to the "millennium," the bible proves it is not a real historic thing:

    Since the resurrection occurs at the second coming (1 Cor 15:23)...

    And since the judgment occurs at the second coming (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)...

    And since the New Heaven/Earth occurs at the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)...

    THEREFORE we know there is no literal historic millennium. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." The "thousand years" is a typological symbol in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

    The Biblical understanding of the Thousand years is as a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of 1000 years.

    The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

    David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.

    Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to do, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign".

    Again, the idea of a thousand years reign with Israel's Monarchy was an Old Testament hope -- one that was wished for but failed. The hopes of this glorious reign were laid out when Solomon took the throne after David. It was said that Israel would walk in the covenant blessings, and so much so that the Gentiles would come into the covenant (such as the Queen of Sheba's homage to Solomon). However, the "tabernacle of David" began to quickly crumble, and fell into total ruin by the time of the Babylonian exile. This all summarizes an OT type. Now, fast-forward to all the NT typology about Jesus being the TRUE "son of David" who was born as THE MESSIANIC HEIR to David's throne for raising up the Monarchy. This is what Revelation 20 is doing. It is using the Davidic Monarchy typology and applying it to Christ and the martyr-kings who reign in the Christic Monarchy, and it does so in exactly the same typological sense as other types we are more familiar with (Jesus is the "sacrifical lamb," etc). In Revelation 20 we see Jesus and his tribulation-martyr-kings reign; they defeat satan; they bring in the gentiles; and they judge the world. These are all the things hoped for in the OT times, but fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant Church. The Church has all dominion with Christ over heaven and earth, satan was defeated, the gentles are now in the covenant, and Christ and the Church are the judges of the whole world.
     
  15. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    You assume I’m not an A-millennialist.

    I believe the final age of Peace is eternal, as it is the Sabbath of the Lord of the Sabbath.

    When all tears are wiped away, we will have rest.
     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    But who there Holds it? the Christian Citizens of Israel?
    The Muslim Citizens of Israel?
    Talmudic citizens?
    the Secular Citizens?

    And I didn't say theology I said Theocracy... which is a Theocratic GOVERNMENT... Modern Israel does not have a Theocratic Government. It's Secular and democratic.

    Whos they?
    the Christian Citizens of Israel?
    The Muslim Citizens of Israel?
    Talmudic citizens?
    the Secular Citizens?

    The Talmudic Citizens of Israel follow the Post Christain, man-made religion of the Babylonian Talmud.
    The do not Follow Moses or the Old Covenant Law in any fashion.
     
  17. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    What is the religion of the government of Israel?

    If you study up, you will know, immediately.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Who are these people that the Bible says exist on earth, just outside the gates of the New Jerusalem, in that eternal age:

    Revelation 22:15
    15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    And who are the thirsty people in that eternal age that the spirit is calling to outside the gates to come and drink of the water of life? Saved people aren't thirsty, for One drink ye shall never thirst again:

    Revelation 22:17
    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

    And in this eternal state of Rest, where all has been made anew, brought back to the perfection that existed before the fall, why are the nations STILL in need of perpetual healing?

    Revelation 22:2
    2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Don't you have to be actively shedding tears first for them to be "wiped away"?

    And what about tears of Joy? will we be not allowed to shed tears of Joy there?

    Will it be some sort of "Zoloft" type eternal existence... not too high, not too low... just even keel?
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well, it's certainly NOT Biblical, Mosaic Judaism if that is what you are suggesting...

    The Government of Israel is SECULAR, Parliamentary & Democratic.
    People of many faiths (and even of no faith at all) make up the democratic government of modern Israel, not unlike the USA.

    I'm frankly Surpriesd you don't know this.

    It's a Duck.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  20. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    It is indeed Judaism. Look at the requirements to become a citizen and how By controversy alone they have been loosened.
     
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