Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

Grip Docility

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Then why are you blindly accepting the claims of those who say they are?

You don't seem to require any evidence before you say to someone who says "I am Biblical Israel", you immediately say "yes I agree you are Israel, you must be, for you say so"

Someone merely makes the claim and "viola", you believe them without question or scrutiny.

(Except of course those people who have pledged their Fidelity and allegiance to, and have become loyal subjects of Israel's King, Jesus Christ, then you say "NO! You loyal subjects of the King of Israel are NOT Israel, it's only those who REJECT the King of Israel who must be counted as Israel")

Curious.

You have a very bizarre idea of who is Israel (you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).
YOU TEACH THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE APOSTLES TEACH.

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Just like with Moses in the Wilderness, Believing Faithful Israel continues, while Wicked, Apostate Israel is destroyed.

And Just Like Old Covenant Israel, Gentiles who believe and convert to New Covenant Israel are welcomed and received as full fledged citizens.

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

Israel integrated into the Body of Christ, God gave birth to, through them.

Israel and Gentiles were made one in Jesus, hence the Body of Christ. That isn’t Israel.

This is so simple to see. All Israel isn’t Israel... which refers specifically to the Natural Branches Broken off, when Paul specifically states they can be regrafted.

Through Romans 9-11, Paul identifies Jews as Jews and Israel as Israel, while going so far to describe a group that are enemies of the Gospel, but beloved because of their fathers!

Exegete Romans 9-11 out in full, carefully... you won’t be able to miss it.
 
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mkgal1

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Your demeanor is kind and your work is well explained. I don’t detect any lack of mercy on your part for the scattered unbelieving Jews and National Israel as it exists today.
Well - that wasn't my work. I was quoting from the link provided.

To be honest the context again seems to be Paul referring to believing National Israel as he had just ripped unbelieving National Israel a new one with the book of Galatians.
The point made in the article from the Greek Orthodox church is that "Israel" is used in the context of PEOPLE (laos) not "nation".

Ecclesia isn’t the same word as Israel... so I’m still not seeing why Israel is considered to be the BOC... in orthodox doctrine.

Please spell this out clearly to me how unbelieving Israel is viewed by the “orthodox” stance you are patiently expressing.
I don't want to misrepresent the Orthodox faith - so I will use another article that may be more clear. Basically - consider WHO it was that began the faithful early church (they were all faithful believing Jewish followers of Christ - the Gospel wasn't brought to the Gentiles for some time).

Quoting from linked article:
THE "CHOSEN" PEOPLE OF GOD: AN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE

I was recently asked what is the Orthodox Christian perspective regarding the Jewish people as God's "chosen people"?

The theological concept of the "people of God" in Orthodox Christian perspective is highly dependent on the biblical understanding of God's covenant with the people of Israel and the Christian self-understanding as the new Israel.

In the Holy Scripture we read:

"And the Lord has declared this day that you are His people, His treasured possession as He promised, and that you are to keep all his Commands. He has declared that He will set you in praise, fame and honor high above all the nations He has made and that you will be a people holy to the Lord your God, as He promised" (Deut. 26:18-19).

And in another place it is stated that:

"Yet the Lord set His affection on your ancestors and loved them, and He chose you, their descendants, above all the nations--as it is today" (Deut. 10:15).

This is the basis of the Scriptural understanding of God's people where they are set apart to worship God, to obey God's Commandments, and to proclaim God's Truth to the whole world. The Holy Scripture do not intend to promote a racist view of the people of God, but, rather, to draw attention to the universal mission of Israel as the people called by God to bring into the world the Messiah, Jesus Christ. God chose Israel as God's people not for special favor and glorification but to bring God's Light to the "nations," to be the divine messenger and witness to all the peoples of the world. The Christians looked on the people of God as Jesus' disciples, a universal community that was not distinguished according to race or nationality or class or sex, as explicitly stated in the letters of Saint Paul:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (St. John1:12).

The term "holy people of God" designates the Church, open to all and transcending all barriers between Jews and gentiles. (Romans 15:25-31; I Cor. 16:1)

The Church is the Israel of God, "not a new Israel, but the one and only people of God, Israel in a new face of history, namely, that of Jesus." The Church is all encompassing and provides Divine revelation and salvation to all people and races. One interpreter of Saint Paul makes the point that; "In Jesus there is a new universalism, not a bare transposition from Israel to the Church." Children of God are "all who received Him (Christ), Who believed in His name." (St. John 1:12). "It is faith, this total adherence to the person of Christ, as revealed and expressed through His Name, that makes of us 'children of God'.

The term "people of God" in the Orthodox Church is understood as the members of the body of Christ (the Church), the "Israel of God," the "saints," the "elect," the "chosen race," and the "royal priesthood". In the New Testament, as understood by Orthodox Christians, the "people of God" is the Church as the body of Christ. In the First Epistle (Letter) of Saint Peter it is clearly stated that: "At one time you were not God's people, but now you are His people." The Church is "God's holy people," the baptized participating in God's realm, as manifested in the divine Eucharistic Liturgy.

The Church Holy Fathers generally accepted the Old Testament as a precursor to the coming of Christ. The Epistle of Barnabas refers to the circumcision not as a physical mark of the chosen people but as that of the "circumcision of the ears," that is, to hear God's word and keep it. And these are a "type" of Jesus and the Church. The sacrifices of the Old Testament serve as a prefiguration of the Good News and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The acts performed in the Old Testament all point to Christ.

The covenant, the bond of God made with Israel on Mount Sinai is fulfilled on Golgotha (Calvary), sealed with the blood of Christ as Savior of the world. This Orthodox view of the people of God is based on reiterations of Holy Scripture referring to these believers as "people of God," "chosen race," "a peculiar people" (St. Titus 2:14), and as "Christian people" (St. John Damascene). These terms refer to the mystical body that is inspired by the Holy Spirit and governed by the Divine Head, which is Christ.

The following statement provides an understanding of the call and uniqueness of the people of God that, as an Orthodox Catholic Christian, one can assert:

"In a broken world God calls the whole of humanity to become God's people. For this purpose God chose Israel and then spoke in a unique and decisive way in Jesus Christ, God's Son. Jesus made His own the nature, condition and cause of the whole human race, giving Himself as a sacrifice for all. Jesus' life of service, His death and Resurrection, are the foundation of a new community, which is built up continually by the Good News of the Gospel and the gifts of the sacraments. The Holy Spirit unites in a single body those who follow Jesus Christ and sends them as witnesses into the world. Belonging to the Church means living in communion with God through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit."

The Orthodox Church makes a clear claim that the baptized are the people of God. All baptized believers in Christ who receive the Holy Spirit are "sons and daughters of God" and "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29) in the covenant members' relationship to the Lord, for in the "New creation" all believers are "one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

The contemporary theological interpretation of the Sinai Covenant is clearly stated as a fulfillment in Christ but not necessarily as a rejection of the Jewish people. However, in the present times, the relationship of God with God's people is to be understood in terms of the Church. In the new Israel (the Church), all human beings are incorporated without regard to their race and gender---united into one Body of Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, brought together in Christ. The formerly "separated" and "distanced" Jews and Gentiles now exist in harmony in the Church as the Body of Christ.
~ The "Chosen" People of God: An Orthodox Perspective
 
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Grip Docility

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Well - that wasn't my work. I was quoting from the link provided.


The point made in the article from the Greek Orthodox church is that "Israel" is used in the context of PEOPLE (laos) not "nation".


I don't want to misrepresent the Orthodox faith - so I will use another article that may be more clear. Basically - consider WHO it was that began the faithful early church (they were all faithful believing Jewish followers of Christ - the Gospel wasn't brought to the Gentiles for some time).

Quoting from linked article:
THE "CHOSEN" PEOPLE OF GOD: AN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE

I was recently asked what is the Orthodox Christian perspective regarding the Jewish people as God's "chosen people"?

The theological concept of the "people of God" in Orthodox Christian perspective is highly dependent on the biblical understanding of God's covenant with the people of Israel and the Christian self-understanding as the new Israel.

In the Holy Scripture we read:

"And the Lord has declared this day that you are His people, His treasured possession as He promised, and that you are to keep all his Commands. He has declared that He will set you in praise, fame and honor high above all the nations He has made and that you will be a people holy to the Lord your God, as He promised" (Deut. 26:18-19).

And in another place it is stated that:

"Yet the Lord set His affection on your ancestors and loved them, and He chose you, their descendants, above all the nations--as it is today" (Deut. 10:15).

This is the basis of the Scriptural understanding of God's people where they are set apart to worship God, to obey God's Commandments, and to proclaim God's Truth to the whole world. The Holy Scripture do not intend to promote a racist view of the people of God, but, rather, to draw attention to the universal mission of Israel as the people called by God to bring into the world the Messiah, Jesus Christ. God chose Israel as God's people not for special favor and glorification but to bring God's Light to the "nations," to be the divine messenger and witness to all the peoples of the world. The Christians looked on the people of God as Jesus' disciples, a universal community that was not distinguished according to race or nationality or class or sex, as explicitly stated in the letters of Saint Paul:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (St. John1:12).

The term "holy people of God" designates the Church, open to all and transcending all barriers between Jews and gentiles. (Romans 15:25-31; I Cor. 16:1)

The Church is the Israel of God, "not a new Israel, but the one and only people of God, Israel in a new face of history, namely, that of Jesus." The Church is all encompassing and provides Divine revelation and salvation to all people and races. One interpreter of Saint Paul makes the point that; "In Jesus there is a new universalism, not a bare transposition from Israel to the Church." Children of God are "all who received Him (Christ), Who believed in His name." (St. John 1:12). "It is faith, this total adherence to the person of Christ, as revealed and expressed through His Name, that makes of us 'children of God'.

The term "people of God" in the Orthodox Church is understood as the members of the body of Christ (the Church), the "Israel of God," the "saints," the "elect," the "chosen race," and the "royal priesthood". In the New Testament, as understood by Orthodox Christians, the "people of God" is the Church as the body of Christ. In the First Epistle (Letter) of Saint Peter it is clearly stated that: "At one time you were not God's people, but now you are His people." The Church is "God's holy people," the baptized participating in God's realm, as manifested in the divine Eucharistic Liturgy.

The Church Holy Fathers generally accepted the Old Testament as a precursor to the coming of Christ. The Epistle of Barnabas refers to the circumcision not as a physical mark of the chosen people but as that of the "circumcision of the ears," that is, to hear God's word and keep it. And these are a "type" of Jesus and the Church. The sacrifices of the Old Testament serve as a prefiguration of the Good News and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The acts performed in the Old Testament all point to Christ.

The covenant, the bond of God made with Israel on Mount Sinai is fulfilled on Golgotha (Calvary), sealed with the blood of Christ as Savior of the world. This Orthodox view of the people of God is based on reiterations of Holy Scripture referring to these believers as "people of God," "chosen race," "a peculiar people" (St. Titus 2:14), and as "Christian people" (St. John Damascene). These terms refer to the mystical body that is inspired by the Holy Spirit and governed by the Divine Head, which is Christ.

The following statement provides an understanding of the call and uniqueness of the people of God that, as an Orthodox Catholic Christian, one can assert:

"In a broken world God calls the whole of humanity to become God's people. For this purpose God chose Israel and then spoke in a unique and decisive way in Jesus Christ, God's Son. Jesus made His own the nature, condition and cause of the whole human race, giving Himself as a sacrifice for all. Jesus' life of service, His death and Resurrection, are the foundation of a new community, which is built up continually by the Good News of the Gospel and the gifts of the sacraments. The Holy Spirit unites in a single body those who follow Jesus Christ and sends them as witnesses into the world. Belonging to the Church means living in communion with God through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit."

The Orthodox Church makes a clear claim that the baptized are the people of God. All baptized believers in Christ who receive the Holy Spirit are "sons and daughters of God" and "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29) in the covenant members' relationship to the Lord, for in the "New creation" all believers are "one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

The contemporary theological interpretation of the Sinai Covenant is clearly stated as a fulfillment in Christ but not necessarily as a rejection of the Jewish people. However, in the present times, the relationship of God with God's people is to be understood in terms of the Church. In the new Israel (the Church), all human beings are incorporated without regard to their race and gender---united into one Body of Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, brought together in Christ. The formerly "separated" and "distanced" Jews and Gentiles now exist in harmony in the Church as the Body of Christ.
~ The "Chosen" People of God: An Orthodox Perspective

Again, this is excellent, but it ignores the difference between children of God and Children of Israel.

The Body of Christ is Under the Blood, Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ, while the Body of Moses (Jude 1:9) was most definitely Under the Law (Deuteronomy 31:26) as verified by Jesus Himself being born (Galatians 4:4) and dying falsely accused under the law (Ephesians 2:15)

The facts remain that the “orthodox” stance you are citing remains speculative.

I mean this sincerely and not to sound crass, but the Pharisees that incorrectly assessed who Jesus was, were “orthodox” individuals of their day.

Nowhere is the Body of Christ called Israel in all of scripture and it is extremely important because much Judaizing and Eschatological malignment has occurred, because of the “assumption”.

Scripture specifically says... the two were folded into a new man, not Israel.

Abraham is the father of Faith, not Jacob. Jacob is father of Israel by namesake.

Upon close evaluation and notation of the theological Chaos this idea of Supersession has caused, we see all fringe Arian, or self deity professing faiths, Judaizing included... claiming Supersession to be a legitimate doctrine. Their very authority over masses depends on the “validity” of the doctrine.

There are wonderful denominations that adopt the “manmade doctrine” of “Supersession”, but it is not biblical, without enormous conjecture and extra-biblical notation.

This is merely my opinion and I do appreciate all that you are patiently sharing.
 
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mkgal1

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it ignores the difference between children of God and Children of Israel.
Because - the mystery is - there IS no distinction. IOW - the people of God ARE the Israel of God.
 
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Grip Docility

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Because - the mystery is - there IS no distinction. IOW - the people of God ARE the Israel of God.

Now it comes to it.

It all hinges on Galatians 6:16, doesn’t it. The issue of the context is Paul is specifically noting Jerusalem above, which again is not the BOC, in Galatians. He is also in the phase of combining the Jews and Gentiles that make up the BOC, while penning the book of Galatians. Peter and he dispute over this integration by Paul’s recalling of a recent happening, in Galatians.

Paul is clearly warning against Judaizing of the Body of Christ, thusly, as I specified before, Paul just got done telling Judaizing Jews that claimed to be part of the BOC that he would be fine if they castrated themselves in an overcirumcision sense.

A blessing to the Faith based of Israel, within the BOC would be an enormously sensible statement, in Galatians 6:16.

The Supersession of the matter isn’t really supported at all, when Galatians is read in full context.

Note... Paul says peace be upon “them”... not “you”, in Galatians 6:16

To be evaluated, I would think.
 
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mkgal1

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The Body of Christ is Under the Blood, Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ, while the Body of Moses (Jude 1:9) was most definitely Under the Law (Deuteronomy 31:26) as verified by Jesus Himself being born (Galatians 4:4) and dying falsely accused under the law (Ephesians 2:15)

The facts remain that the “orthodox” stance you are citing remains speculative.

I mean this sincerely and not to sound crass, but the Pharisees that incorrectly assessed who Jesus was, were “orthodox” individuals of their day.
All that was written in the OT was pointing to Christ - and the early church were those that "got it".

You're drawing your lines of distinction in the wrong place. There were most definitely faithful Jewish followers of Jesus (that's where it ALL began - Mary, the mother of Jesus, the apostles, Paul, the 3,000 believers at Pentecost, etc). The Scribes and Pharisees were not the same "Orthodox" I'm referring to. Are you familiar with the Greek Orthodox Church? Do you know the seven churches (councils) that the letters in Revelation were written to? THAT is the early Greek Orthodox Church.

But the Gospel wasn't immediately preached to the Gentiles - we don't see that transition begin to happen until Acts 9 - when Saul was met by God (this is believed to have happened around 34 A.D. and then there was a three year period of Saul's/Paul's training). The gospel was exclusively preached to the Jews in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy for 3 1/2 years after Jesus' crucifixion.

Quoting article by Ligonier Ministries:

“I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus” (vv. 16–17).​
- Galatians 1:11–24

Paul begins Galatians by saying that he was sent by Christ and the Father, and that the other church leaders agreed with him. In Galatians 1:11–2:10, he expands on these two points.

He begins in verses 11 and 12 by saying that the Gospel he preached was not devised by human wisdom, nor had he received it from the other apostles; rather, he was taught it directly by Jesus Christ Himself. He continues by reminding them that he had been trained in and was fanatically devoted to the erroneous traditions of Judaism. When God called Paul on the Damascus road, he was commissioned to preach the Gospel of Christ.

Paul said that when Christ called him, he did not go to Jerusalem to receive instruction from the apostles. Rather, he retired into Arabia for a time and not until three years later did he go to Jerusalem. Even then, the only apostle he met was Peter, and the only other leader he met was James, the presiding elder of the Jerusalem church. It has often been remarked that Paul clearly implied that he spent three years being taught by Jesus Himself (1:12), either directly or (perhaps more likely) through the study of the Word. Thus, like the other apostles, Paul studied with Christ for three years before beginning his ministry (compare Acts 1:21). ~ Ligonier Ministries


Acts 9:20 ~ Saul stayed with the believers (d) in Damascus for a few days. 20 And immediately he began preaching about Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “He is indeed the Son of God!”

Acts 9:28 ~ So Saul stayed with the apostles and went all around Jerusalem with them, preaching boldly in the name of the Lord.
 
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mkgal1

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Now it comes to it.

It all hinges on Galatians 6:16, doesn’t it. The issue of the context is Paul is specifically noting Jerusalem above, which again is not the BOC, in Galatians.
The Jews of that time were expecting a nationalistic king to rescue them from the Romans (geopolitically).

Jesus came to rescue ALL (not in a political/nationalistic way).

"Jerusalem above" is not a location on our global map (is the point being made, I believe).
 
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Grip Docility

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All that was written in the OT was pointing to Christ - and the early church were those that "got it".

You're drawing your lines of distinction in the wrong place. There were most definitely faithful Jewish followers of Jesus (that's where it ALL began - Mary, the mother of Jesus, the apostles, Paul, the 3,000 believers at Pentecost, etc). The Scribes and Pharisees were not the same "Orthodox" I'm referring to. Are you familiar with the Greek Orthodox Church? Do you know the seven churches (councils) that the letters in Revelation were written to? THAT is the early Greek Orthodox Church.

But the Gospel wasn't immediately preached to the Gentiles - we don't see that transition begin to happen until Acts 9 - when Saul was met by God (this is believed to have happened around 34 A.D. and then there was a three year period of Saul's/Paul's training). The gospel was exclusively preached to the Jews in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy for 3 1/2 years after Jesus' crucifixion.

Quoting article by Ligonier Ministries:

“I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus” (vv. 16–17).​
- Galatians 1:11–24

Paul begins Galatians by saying that he was sent by Christ and the Father, and that the other church leaders agreed with him. In Galatians 1:11–2:10, he expands on these two points.

He begins in verses 11 and 12 by saying that the Gospel he preached was not devised by human wisdom, nor had he received it from the other apostles; rather, he was taught it directly by Jesus Christ Himself. He continues by reminding them that he had been trained in and was fanatically devoted to the erroneous traditions of Judaism. When God called Paul on the Damascus road, he was commissioned to preach the Gospel of Christ.

Paul said that when Christ called him, he did not go to Jerusalem to receive instruction from the apostles. Rather, he retired into Arabia for a time and not until three years later did he go to Jerusalem. Even then, the only apostle he met was Peter, and the only other leader he met was James, the presiding elder of the Jerusalem church. It has often been remarked that Paul clearly implied that he spent three years being taught by Jesus Himself (1:12), either directly or (perhaps more likely) through the study of the Word. Thus, like the other apostles, Paul studied with Christ for three years before beginning his ministry (compare Acts 1:21). ~ Ligonier Ministries


Acts 9:20 ~ Saul stayed with the believers (d) in Damascus for a few days. 20 And immediately he began preaching about Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “He is indeed the Son of God!”

Acts 9:28 ~ So Saul stayed with the apostles and went all around Jerusalem with them, preaching boldly in the name of the Lord.

You thus note the distinction of the BOC planted by Jewish BOC members that were true descendants of Israel as it transitions to Jew and Gentile alike into “The New Man”, as Ephesians 2 states.

Do you agree that the BOC is called into “A New Man” per Ephesians 2?
 
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Grip Docility

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The Jews of that time were expecting a nationalistic king to rescue them from the Romans (geopolitically).

Jesus came to rescue ALL (not in a political/nationalistic way).

"Jerusalem above" is not a location on our global map (is the point being made, I believe).

They expected National Salvation per scripture, but missed the Spiritual Salvation part per scripture that would come first.

There’s a good reason they expected what they did.

You don’t find the Apostles question in Acts 1 about the Kingdom to Israel and the noted words of the Angels, coupled with their location at the Mount of Olives to be parallel to what we see in Zechariah 14 as Jesus answer to the Apostles binds to Jesus words of His second coming?
 
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mkgal1

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You thus note the distinction of the BOC planted by Jewish BOC members that were true descendants of Israel as it transitions to Jew and Gentile alike into “The New Man”, as Ephesians 2 states.

Do you agree that the BOC is called into “A New Man” per Ephesians 2?
I do - but isn't the "new man" also likened to an olive tree? With the "root" being that of Jesse?

From Ray Vander Laan:
The olive tree is one of the plants most frequently mentioned in the Bible. Scripture writers used olive tree imagery to describe Jesus' Jewish roots and the relationship of Jews and Gentiles.​

When an olive tree gets very old (often hundreds of years old) and has reached its maximum production, farmers usually cut it down to improve its future growth. Soon, new shoots grow from the old stump, and the tree begins producing olives again.

This aspect of the olive tree provides an image of Isaiah's prophecy, 'A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from His roots a Branch will bear fruit' (Isa. 11:1). As a descendant of David, Jesus was the shoot from the stump of Jesse (David's father).

The New Testament uses olive trees to help illustrate God's plan of salvation. In Rom. 11:11-24, Paul describes Christians as either natural olive branches (those of Jewish background), or olive branches that have been grafted onto Jesus (Gentiles). As branches grafted into Jesus, Christians will only bear fruit if we are attached to (and have a personal relationship with) him.

The olive tree provides an excellent lesson for Christians who are not Jewish. Though God cut many Jewish branches down because they rejected Jesus as Messiah, He did not uproot the tree. The shoot of Jesus and the branches of his Gentile followers grew from a Jewish stump. As Christians, we are branches growing from Jewish roots.

The olive tree can be a constant reminder that Jesus is our source of life; our branch springing from Jewish roots. The beautiful olive tree reminds us of God's amazing plan of salvation and his expectation that all his branches will bear fruit in abundance. ~ Olive Tree Imagery



Psalm 52:8 ~ But I am like an olive tree, thriving in the house of God. I will always trust in God’s unfailing love.
 
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Grip Docility

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I do - but isn't the "new man" also likened to an olive tree? With the "root" being that of Jesse?

From Ray Vander Laan:
The olive tree is one of the plants most frequently mentioned in the Bible. Scripture writers used olive tree imagery to describe Jesus' Jewish roots and the relationship of Jews and Gentiles.​

When an olive tree gets very old (often hundreds of years old) and has reached its maximum production, farmers usually cut it down to improve its future growth. Soon, new shoots grow from the old stump, and the tree begins producing olives again.

This aspect of the olive tree provides an image of Isaiah's prophecy, 'A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from His roots a Branch will bear fruit' (Isa. 11:1). As a descendant of David, Jesus was the shoot from the stump of Jesse (David's father).

The New Testament uses olive trees to help illustrate God's plan of salvation. In Rom. 11:11-24, Paul describes Christians as either natural olive branches (those of Jewish background), or olive branches that have been grafted onto Jesus (Gentiles). As branches grafted into Jesus, Christians will only bear fruit if we are attached to (and have a personal relationship with) him.

The olive tree provides an excellent lesson for Christians who are not Jewish. Though God cut many Jewish branches down because they rejected Jesus as Messiah, He did not uproot the tree. The shoot of Jesus and the branches of his Gentile followers grew from a Jewish stump. As Christians, we are branches growing from Jewish roots.

The olive tree can be a constant reminder that Jesus is our source of life; our branch springing from Jewish roots. The beautiful olive tree reminds us of God's amazing plan of salvation and his expectation that all his branches will bear fruit in abundance. ~ Olive Tree Imagery



Psalm 52:8 ~ But I am like an olive tree, thriving in the house of God. I will always trust in God’s unfailing love.

I fully see your perspective and though I disagree with your final conclusions, I appreciate your points. I would say being IN God incarnate and having the Holy Spirit of God dwell within us, is far different that the “Body of Moses”... which Jude 1:9 specifically mentions in a way that binds to National Israel, via Michael’s defense.

The very fact that the Old Covenant is “Fulfilled” in Christ, shows that the people of the Old Covenant are still a people.

Heaven and earth hasn’t passed away yet, so that covenant doesn’t have the power to save, but there are blind Jews that are still broken off branches that remain, from it. Romans 11:11-36 has much to say about that.

Heavenly Jerusalem is real, but Zechariah 14 clearly shows a literal presence of Jesus in defense of Israel, after it had been decimated and attacked.

We have a literal Israel here and now. If God wipes Israel out permanently, wouldn’t the land be void of any heritage?

Does not OT prophecy that hasn’t been fulfilled yet line up with Israel existing again?
 
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mkgal1

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They expected National Salvation per scripture, but missed the Spiritual Salvation part per scripture that would come first.

There’s a good reason they expected what they did.

You don’t find the Apostles question in Acts 1 about the Kingdom to Israel and the noted words of the Angels, coupled with their location at the Mount of Olives to be parallel to what we see in Zechariah 14 as Jesus answer to the Apostles binds to Jesus words of His second coming?
Look at this question in the context of "Israel" = "The PEOPLE of God":

Acts 1:6 ~ Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel the People of God?”



Restoration (I believe) comes from following Christ. Ray Vander Laan says something that I really appreciate the wording of. He says, "Jesus brought shalom to the chaos of this world". He patterned a way for us to live righteously with sin around us. The late Jay Guinn wrote this about real restoration - true Israel - and the Kingdom:

Discipleship and the Kingdom

Why do we have to follow Jesus to enter the Kingdom? The Israelites only had to be born as descendants of Abraham!

Well, the true Israel is the light of the world.

(Isa 42:6-7 ESV) 6 “I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations, 7 to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness.”

We can’t be a light for the nations unless we reflect the very nature of God. You see, the Kingdom is where God’s will is done on earth as in heaven. And God’s will is that we be restored to the image of God. ~ Quote from Jay Guinn Real Restoration: Luke: “Follow Me”




 
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mkgal1

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I would say being IN God incarnate and having the Holy Spirit of God dwell within us, is far different that the “Body of Moses”
There were many that were BOTH, though (King David, Mary (the mother of Jesus), John the Baptizer to name a few examples) - that's my point.

And there were even those that were faithful "foreigners" that were included both in the group in the wilderness AND Jesus' family line (like Rahab).

Those are included in the shoot that came from the root of Jesse (faithful, fruit-bearing, followers).
 
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mkgal1

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Heaven and earth hasn’t passed away yet
This is what amillennialism affirms:

The kingdom of God is both present and future. Amillennialists do not believe that the kingdom of God is primarily a Jewish kingdom which involves the literal restoration of the throne of David. Nor do they believe that because of the unbelief of the Jews of his day Christ postponed the establishment of the kingdom to the time of his future earthly millennial reign. Amillennialists believe that the kingdom of God was founded by Christ at the time of his sojourn on earth, is operative in history now and is destined to be revealed in its fullness in the life to come. They understand the kingdom of God to be the reign of God dynamically active in human history through Jesus Christ. Its purpose is to redeem God’s people from sin and from demonic powers, and finally to establish the new heavens and the new earth. The kingdom of God means nothing less than the reign of God in Christ over his entire created universe. ~ "Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema

Preterists believe:

"Heaven and earth" intersected in the Temple. "Heaven" represented God's realm/His domain - and "earth" was man's realm/domain. The meeting place was in the Holy of Holies. That is no longer here.....it's "passed away". ~


Link to other article -----> N. T. Wright’s The Day the Revolution Began, Part 7 (God’s Temple under the Covenants; the Intersection of Heaven and Earth)
 
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mkgal1

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Does not OT prophecy that hasn’t been fulfilled yet line up with Israel existing again?
This is a thread about amillenialism - right? In that context - the only OT prophecy that's yet to be fulfilled is His return.

This is an excellent resource (IMO) that encapsulates the theology of "already - not yet" (ie, amillenialism):

excerpt from PDF Making All Things New said:
Theological Foundation

Grasping the Already–Not Yet


In the first part of this project, we articulate the theological framework for ministering within the NT’s conception of the already–not yet. Professor Beale paints the general landscape of the already–not yet in chapter 1 (“The End Starts at the Beginning”), and chapters 2 and 3 develop his work on two levels. Chapter 2 (“The Nature of the End-Time Church”) explains how the people of God span the two Testaments, with special emphasis on how the already–not yet informs our view of the identity of the church. Moving from the corporate to the individual, chapter 3 (“Life in the Overlap of the Ages”) drills down into some of the specifics of living in the inauguration of the overlap of the ages.

The End Starts at the Beginning
G. K. Beale

Theologians generally define “eschatology” as the study of “last things,” an investigation and systematization of events that take place at the very end of history. This general definition is often understood on a popular level to mean that eschatology refers only to the future end of the world directly preceding Christ’s final coming. This popular notion, which some scholars still hold to, needs radical adjustment. On a scholarly level, NT research over the past decades has made great strides in increasing our understanding that the beginning of Christian history was perceived by the first Christians as the beginning of the end times but not their consummation. 1 New Testament scholarship has still been atomistic enough to prevent serious broad theological reflection on the already–not yet eschatological2 perspective of the entire NT corpus (though there are significant exceptions, such as N. T. Wright’s work)

The apostles understood eschatology not merely as futurology but as a mindset for understanding the present within the climaxing context of redemptive history. That is, the apostles understood that they were already living in the end times, and that they were to understand their present salvation in Christ to be already an end-time reality. William Manson has well said, When we turn to the New Testament, we pass from the climate of prediction to that of fulfillment. The things which God had foreshadowed by the lips of His holy prophets He has now, in part at least, brought to accomplishment. . . . The supreme sign of the Eschaton is the Resurrection of Jesus and the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Church. The Resurrection of Jesus is not simply a sign which God has granted in favour of His son, but is the inauguration, the entrance into history, of the times of the End. Christians, therefore, have entered through the Christ into the new age. . . . What had been predicted in Holy Scripture as to happen to Israel or to man in the Eschaton, has happened to and in Jesus. The foundation-stone of the New Creation has come into position. 3

*3.William Manson, “Eschatology in the New Testament,” in Eschatology: Four Papers Read to the Society for the Study of Theology, SJTOP 2 (Edinburgh: Oliver & Boyd, 1953), 6, italics added. Although this sounds like “overrealized eschatology,” Manson qualifies it by saying, “The End has come! The End has not come!” (ibid., 7). ~ http://cdn.bakerpublishinggroup.com...es/files/Excerpt_9780801049606.pdf?1453997989
 
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mkgal1

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The Church and Israel in the New Testament
by Keith Mathison

One of the most common questions asked by students of the Bible concerns the relationship between Israel and the church. We read the Old Testament, and it is evident that most of it concerns the story of Israel. From Jacob to the exile, the people of God is Israel, and Israel is the people of God. Despite the constant sin of king and people leading to the judgment of exile, the prophets look beyond this judgment with hope to a time of restoration for Israel. When we turn to the New Testament, the same story continues, and Israel is still in the picture. Jesus is described as the one who will be given “the throne of his father David” and the one who “will reign over the house of Jacob [Israel] forever” (Luke 1:32–33). He is presented as the One the prophets foresaw. ~ The Church and Israel in the New Testament by Keith Mathison
 
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Grip Docility

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We have a *modern* place on our geo-political map called "Israel" - named by men.

Does the geographical location and Semitic blood not line up with scriptures, Prophesied?

If God allowed national Israel to be completely wiped out (Jerusalem) and it’s return “isn’t His will”, why does it exist, in your mind. Wouldn’t it be a pretty big deal in light of all scripture?

Even from an Amillennial perspective?
 
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mkgal1

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Does the geographical location and Semitic blood not line up with scriptures, Prophesied?
I believe it's been Parousia70 that's been making the point in this thread that the OT covenant was NEVER about "bloodline" or DNA. The only DNA required for that covenant was faith and obedience. Look back at Genesis 17 - there were always "foreigners" in the mix. Today - we all have a little bit of Abraham's DNA.

Genesis 17:27 ~ And all the men of Abraham’s household—both servants born in his household and those purchased from foreigners—were circumcised with him.
 
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I believe it's been Parousia70 that's been making the point in this thread that the OT covenant was NEVER about "bloodline" or DNA. The only DNA required for that covenant was faith and obedience. Look back at Genesis 17 - there were always "foreigners" in the mix. Today - we all have a little bit of Abraham's DNA.

Genesis 17:27 ~ And all the men of Abraham’s household—both servants born in his household and those purchased from foreigners—were circumcised with him.

I’m open to learn and grow if scripture requires me to do so, through the Holy Spirit.

I’m asking, with biblical certainty about the Romans 11:11-36, Acts 1, Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 of the matter as they correlate to Revelation literally.

I’m noting that Paul distinguishes between National Israel and Heavenly Israel in Galatians, which is a major step for me theologically.

Do you have an answer?

Romans 11:28 specifically states they are enemies of the Gospel but elect by God’s dealings with their fathers for their sakes...

That’s genetics...
 
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