Once again, I did not invent anything.
1. Rapture.
Habakkuk 3:3 God shall come from the south, and the Holy One from the dark shady mount Paran. Pause. 4 His excellence covered the heavens, and the earth was full of His praise.
Revelation 1:6 and has made us a kingdom of priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever.
Time between ingatherings.
Isaiah 32:9 Rise up, you rich women, and hear My voice; you confident daughters, listen to My words. 10 For a year and a few days, you shall be troubled: the vintage shall be cut off; it will fail, the ingathering shall not come.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.
2. Coming of the Bridegroom.
Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. ... 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Joel 2:11 The Lord gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the Day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?
Many years later after the falling away, the covenant is broken, and Jerusalem is given up for destruction. The divorce.
3. Day of Visitation. (during the 6th Trumpet)
Luke 19:41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
Zechariah 7:11 But they refused to attend, and madly turned their back, and made their ears heavy, so that they should not hear. 12 And they made their heart disobedient, so as not to listen to My law, and the words which Yehovah Almighty sent forth by His Spirit by the former prophets: so there was great wrath from Yehovah Almighty.
13 “'And it shall come to pass, that as He spoke, and they did not listen, so they shall cry, and I will not listen,” says Yehovah Almighty. 14 “And I will cast them out among all the nations, whom they do not know; and the land behind them shall be made utterly destitute of any going through or returning: yea they have made the choice land a desolation.'”
Amos 9:1 I saw Yehovah standing on the altar: and He said, “Strike the mercy-seat, and the porch shall be shaken: and cut through into the heads of all; and I will slay the remnant of them with the sword: no one of them fleeing shall escape, and no one of them striving to save himself shall be delivered. 2 Though they hide themselves in hell, there shall My hand drag them forth; and though they go up to heaven, there will I bring them down.
Isaiah 50:1 Thus says the Lord: “Where is the certificate of your mother’s divorce, Whom I have put away? Or which of My creditors is it to whom I have sold you? For your iniquities you have sold yourselves, And for your transgressions your mother has been put away.
4. 7th Trumpet (prodigal son returns, covenant remembered)
Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” ... 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. ... 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Isaiah 9:6 For a Child is born to us, and a Son is given to us, whose government is upon His shoulder: and His name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of His peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever.
Once the kingdoms are given to Christ, He first comes to deliver Israel. Then, returns to heaven to cast out Satan. Then waits for the great battle of God Almighty.
5. Armageddon.
Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Ezekiel 39:21 “And I will set My glory among you, and all the nations shall see My judgment which I have worked, and My hand which I have brought upon them. 22 And the house of Israel shall know that I am Yehovah their God, from this day and onward. 23 “And all the nations shall know that the house of Israel were led captive because of their sins, because they rebelled against Me, and I turned away My face from them, and delivered them into the hands of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions did I deal with them, and I turned away My face from them.” 25 Therefore thus says Yehovah God, “Now will I turn back captivity in Jacob, and will have mercy on the house of Israel, and will be jealous for the sake of My holy name.
The Millennium now begins. Satan cast into the abyss. Beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20, and so on...
I answered your question/accusation with scripture, and I can list 100 more if needed. I clearly showed a time when God comes and the earth is full of His praise, then another time when all the tribes mourn at His coming. The single coming theory is not possible. Nor is it biblical. Revelation is clearly laid out as written without the need to rearrange it. This is the folly of many. However, this disagreement should not become enmity between us brothers and sisters in Christ. When the hour comes, everyone will understand. Until then, let the good news of the kingdom be preached unto all the world as a witness to all nations!
Do you have your own website, or know of a website that has an organized collection of amillenial teachings?With this type of loose adhoc hermeneutics you could literally make the Bible say anything. Obviously you have nothing to support your theology. There is no passage that supports your paradigm. You are manipulating the sacred text to support your personal purposes.
2+2=4, not 22.
Do you have your own website, or know of a website that has an organized collection of amillenial teachings?
I know a lot of people see it that way, but it is not true. There are some passages that Amils take literally and Premils do not and a number of others that Amils take more literally than Premils do.
Premils do not take passages like Acts 17:30-31, John 5:28-29, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 literally. At least, not like Amils do.
Acts 17:30-31 teaches that God commands literally all people everywhere to repent and that He has "appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained". Taken literally, this means there is one judgment day on which all people will be judged. In contrast, Premils believe in two (or more) judgment days.
John 5:28-29, if taken literally, indicates that there is one future time (one event) during which all of the dead will be resurrected. In contrast to this, Premils believe in two (or more) future times/events during which the dead will be resurrected.
2 Thess 1:7-10, if taken literally, teaches that Jesus will take vengeance on literally all unbelievers (what unbeliever doesn't fit the description of not knowing God and obeying the gospel of Christ?) when He returns and that will be on the same day "when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe".
When else will He "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" except on the day of the rapture? All living unbelievers being killed on that day, how does that leave any mortals to populate the earth for a thousand years? It doesn't. Amils come to the conclusion that all unbelievers will be killed and all believers will be made immortal on the day Christ returns because of interpreting scripture literally.
Then there is 2 Peter 3:3-13 which Amils interpret very literally but Premils do not. Taken literally, 2 Peter 3:3-13 very clearly teaches that all of the wicked, including the last days scoffers that Peter wrote about, will be killed on the day Christ returns because the earth will be burned up on that day. Peter clearly taught that it is the new heavens and new earth that we look forward to as a result of the promise of His second coming, not an earthly millennial kingdom (2 Peter 3:13).
And here is another false statement. Where are you getting this from? Amillennialists do not reject a rapture at all if you're talking about believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air after He descends from heaven. We believe that will happen. But, unlike Premils, we believe He will destroy all of the living unbelievers on the earth immediately after the rapture occurs.
Mentioning recap in this thread is breaking rule #2, #4, and #5. No judgment on peoples postings styles was also brought up.Speaking of human opinions. That's all you have to offer. You offer no scriptural support for your opinions unlike everyone else in this thread.
Outlining what pre-trib posters should or should not believe is doing the same thing you complain about. Let pre-trib posters speak openly, without you telling them what they should believe. I thought that was the point of this thread?I think it is wrong for you to speak on behalf of Amillennialists. They can easily speak on their own behalf. I thought that was what this thread is all about. There are several important matters here that you are misrepresenting. Spiritual Jew has highlighted some of them.
The first thing that you have to do is show us hard Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ? If you cannot do that then the debate is over. Surely that is what you believe?
What verse supports populating a new earth?I do believe in the catching away of the saints. I believe when Jesus comes He will rescue His elect in total and then immediately destroy all the wicked. He will regenerate this corrupt eand we will then populate the new perfected earth.
How are we to take this seriously, if you do not even follow your own rules. Recap is not Scripture. It is adding to the context. It is not even a scriptural term.Revelation was not intended to introduce a large deposit of new revelation that was previously unknown to the other sacred writers. Many (wrongly) formulate new elaborate innovative Bible doctrines out of the apocalyptic symbols that were simply designed to express general spiritual truths, in keeping with the rest of Scripture. End-time enthusiasts often arbitrarily use parables, visions, dreams, and symbols to conveniently design their own theology, theories and prophetic schemes. This distorts what was intended to be an unveiling of truth and confuses those who they speak to.
As you dive into the book of Revelation it is important to recognize that it is not chronological. It is a series of recaps. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that. Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.”
What we are looking at is a spiritual revelation of our Savior revealed to us in symbolic form. We get a general overview of the story. We then have an expansion of particular aspects of that story. Scripture often does that.
Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.
Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. Basically, it is telling the same story from different angles.
The ESV Study Bible states: “Revelation unveils the unseen spiritual war in which the church is engaged: the cosmic conflict between God and his Christ on the one hand, and Satan and his evil allies (both demonic and human) on the other. In this conflict, Jesus the Lamb has already won the decisive victory through his sacrificial death, but his church continues to be assaulted by the dragon, in its death-throes, through persecution, false teaching, and the allure of material affluence and cultural approval. By revealing the spiritual realities lying behind the church’s trials and temptations during the time between Christ’s first and second comings, and by dramatically affirming the certainty of Christ’s triumph in the new heaven and earth, the visions granted to John both warn the church and fortify it to endure suffering and to stay pure from the defiling enticements of the present world order.”
Revelation is designed to enlighten God’s people, stir their hearts and increase their faith. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.
Those who have eyes to see will get the general thrust of the book! That does not mean we will grasp every minute detail. But we should get the overall message of the apocalypse.
Cycle 1
Seven Churches (Ch 2-3)
Cycle 2
Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)
Cycle 3
Seven Trumpets (Ch 8-11)
Cycle 4
The Church and its onslaught from the devil and the beast’s and ultimate victory in heaven.
Cycle 5
Seven Vials (Ch 15-16)
Cycle 6
Babylon (Ch 17-19)
Cycle 7
Revelation was not intended to introduce a large deposit of new revelation that was previously unknown to the other sacred writers. Many (wrongly) formulate new elaborate innovative Bible doctrines out of the apocalyptic symbols that were simply designed to express general spiritual truths, in keeping with the rest of Scripture. End-time enthusiasts often arbitrarily use parables, visions, dreams, and symbols to conveniently design their own theology, theories and prophetic schemes. This distorts what was intended to be an unveiling of truth and confuses those who they speak to.
How are we to take this seriously, if you do not even follow your own rules. Recap is not Scripture. It is adding to the context. It is not even a scriptural term.
Recap is human opinion based on a bias that Revelation is not in chronological order. If human opinion is stricken from this thread, then so goes recap, which is just human opinion.
If you cannot compare Scripture with Scripture to show any out of order sequences, then no more complaining that posters are just using their opinion instead of God's Word.
We can only take that as: Amil posters can use opinion, but pre-trib posters cannot. How is that a fair discussion?
It is forcing man made terms on the text. Theology is human opinion of God's Word.You really do not get it. Recap is acknowledging what the Holy Spirit does repeatedly in the Word in describing a truth, reality or event. We see that from start to finish in Scripture. It is right there at the start with the creation story. It can be found throughout the Word of God. It is also seen in the book of Revelation. It is simply a theological recognition. It is not forcing man-made terms into a text, like you continually do.
No, I haven't. Honestly, I can't take it seriously and don't think it's even worth my time debating against something as farfetched as that. That's my opinion and I'm not intending to offend you by saying that.Yes, and no. I don't claim to know everything a "pretrib" thinks, but I do understand they believe there are exactly two future comings of Christ. I do not hold this view. There are seven appointed times of Christ. Two in the past tense, His birth, and His ministry. Five appointed times are still to come. Five, not two. Rapture, Coming of the Bridegroom, Day of Visitation, 7th Trumpet, Armageddon.
The time of the end is not seven years. It is 50 years. By the end of which, man will be as rare as fine gold upon the earth, just as Isaiah wrote. Bet you never heard this before!
That's nonsense. Seeing recaps is one way to interpret the text and has nothing to do with changing the text or adding to it. You assume that everything is literal and all in chronological order, but that is your assumption and your opinion only.Mentioning recap in this thread is breaking rule #2, #4, and #5.
That is fine for any other thread. I thought we were going by rules in this thread. I guess not?That's nonsense. Seeing recaps is one way to interpret the text and has nothing to do with changing the text or adding to it. You assume that everything is literal and all in chronological order, but that is your assumption and your opinion only.
That is fine for any other thread. I thought we were going by rules in this thread. I guess not?
With this type of loose adhoc hermeneutics you could literally make the Bible say anything. Obviously you have nothing to support your theology. There is no passage that supports your paradigm. You are manipulating the sacred text to support your personal purposes.
2+2=4, not 22.
No, I haven't. Honestly, I can't take it seriously and don't think it's even worth my time debating against something as farfetched as that. That's my opinion and I'm not intending to offend you by saying that.
When Elijah the prophet arises and tells you the very same thing I did, will you reject him also? If so, you will see it, but by no means participate in it.
I think it is wrong for you to speak on behalf of Amillennialists. They can easily speak on their own behalf. I thought that was what this thread is all about. There are several important matters here that you are misrepresenting. Spiritual Jew has highlighted some of them.
You switched the debate topic on me. On the prior OP, we were discussing rapture timing views, which I've studied with other premilleninialists, not amillennialists (couldn't you tell from my question in post #4?) So, being on a learning curve for amillennialism, I had to do a quick review from various internet sources. It wasn't meant to speak on behalf of anyone, but to present my [limited] understanding in order to open it up for clarification.
That said, it looks like you have plenty of knowledgeable people willing to engage you on the subject of amillennialism, so you got what you were looking for
You switched the debate topic on me. On the prior OP, we were discussing rapture timing views, which I've studied with other premilleninialists, not amillennialists (couldn't you tell from my question in post #4?) So, being on a learning curve for amillennialism, I had to do a quick review from various internet sources. It wasn't meant to speak on behalf of anyone, but to present my [limited] understanding in order to open it up for clarification.
That said, it looks like you have plenty of knowledgeable people willing to engage you on the subject of amillennialism, so you got what you were looking for
Do you have your own website, or know of a website that has an organized collection of amillenial teachings?
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