You already broke a rule and added the term mortal. You even put it in quotes.The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”
Recap is an added human opinion, not allowed according to the rules. There is nothing internal in Revelation that declares a recap theory.LOL. There are not 3 future comings here. These are recaps. There is 7 in total. They all finish with the wholesale rescue of God's elect and the total destruction of the wicked. This is the end. Hello! This fits in with every single coming of Christ passage. These prove that there is one final future coming of Christ that ushers in the end. There are no survivors to populate your so call Pretrib trib. There is no 3rd coming. This is a theory that was invented by the Jesuits in the early 1800s. It is extra-biblical.
I know a lot of people see it that way, but it is not true. There are some passages that Amils take literally and Premils do not and a number of others that Amils take more literally than Premils do.Where Amillennialists and Premillennialists disagree
1. Hermeneutics. Premillennialists interpret scripture more literally. Passages are taken in their plain sense except where context indicates otherwise. Amillennialists tend to interpret scripture symbollically (and in deed must to make their view work). It's from this difference in hermeneutical approach that eschatological differences tend to arise.
There are good reasons to view scripture literally when it's written in literal text and figuratively when it's written in figurative text. You're talking as if it's all literal, which is clearly not the case. Unless you're on the lookout for things like a literal seven-headed, ten-horned beast to arrive on the scene.But there are good reasons to view scripture literally:
All of the prophecies concerning the Lord's first coming were fulfilled literally.
Jesus treated OT events as literal events and likened future events to them (as in the days of Noah, as in the days of Lot).
The return from diaspora, prophesied in scripture, was literal (1948)
And here is another false statement. Where are you getting this from? Amillennialists do not reject a rapture at all if you're talking about believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air after He descends from heaven. We believe that will happen. But, unlike Premils, we believe He will destroy all of the living unbelievers on the earth immediately after the rapture occurs.2. The Church & Rapture. Premillennialists believe the church started around the time of Jesus first advent, typically given as Pentecost (Acts 2). Ammillennialists believe the church existed since Gen 3 and will be around until the Lord's return. For this reason, they reject a rapture.
Again, where did you get the idea that Amillennialists don't believe we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air? Maybe some partial preterists don't believe it will happen, but most Amils do.The primary rapture passage is 1 Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." The Greek harpazo ("caught up") is rapiemur in the Latin Vulgate and it’s perfect passive form is raptus from which we derive "rapture".
Some other places we see harpazo in scripture:
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:39
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. ... How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Co 12:2-4
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Rev 12:5
Not all Premils believe in a 7-year tribulation, but I think most pre-tribs do.3. The Tribulation. Premillennialists believe in a 7-year tribulation, ammillennialists do not.
The 7-year tribulation is based on the 70th week of Daniel 9:27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The second half of that week (or 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1,260 days, or “time, times and half-time”), is referred to as the "Great Tribulation" (Rev. 11:2; 12:6, 14; 13:5). It will be a time of trouble that the world has never seen before or ever will again:
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Jeremiah 30:7
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21
I'd say what you said here is accurate. At some point I'd like to discuss Matthew 25:31-46 and Isaiah 65:17-25, but not yet.4. The Millennial Kingdom. Premillennialists view it as a literal 1000-year period on earth (Rev 20:2,5) following the Lord's return and subsequent Sheep & Goat judgement (Mat 25). They believe it is an earthly kingdom as people will die (Isaiah 65:17-25) after which the eternal kingdom commences (Revelation 21-22). Amillennialists view it as a present eternal kingdom on earth (Rev 21,25) so the 1000 years isn't literal, but symbolic.
Speaking of human opinions. That's all you have to offer. You offer no scriptural support for your opinions unlike everyone else in this thread.Recap is an added human opinion, not allowed according to the rules. There is nothing internal in Revelation that declares a recap theory.
LOL. There are not 3 future comings here. These are recaps. There is 7 in total. They all finish with the wholesale rescue of God's elect and the total destruction of the wicked. This is the end. Hello! This fits in with every single coming of Christ passage. These prove that there is one final future coming of Christ that ushers in the end. There are no survivors to populate your so call Pretrib trib. There is no 3rd coming. This is a theory that was invented by the Jesuits in the early 1800s. It is extra-biblical.
If your mind is made up there is no reason continue as you can only see thru the lens of your own understanding. No worries. John will explain all when he comes.
I thought it would be good to start with a brief contrast of the views. I'll want to expand it, but it's getting late.
Where Amillennialists and Premillennialists agree
1. Moral Decline, Increasing Violence. Both believe the world will grow worse over time (unlike Postmillennialists). Jesus taught this in Matthew 24:12-14:
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
2. Second Advent. Both believe in the second coming of Christ.
Where Amillennialists and Premillennialists disagree
1. Hermeneutics. Premillennialists interpret scripture more literally. Passages are taken in their plain sense except where context indicates otherwise. Amillennialists tend to interpret scripture symbollically (and in deed must to make their view work). It's from this difference in hermeneutical approach that eschatological differences tend to arise. But there are good reasons to view scripture literally:
All of the prophecies concerning the Lord's first coming were fulfilled literally.
Jesus treated OT events as literal events and likened future events to them (as in the days of Noah, as in the days of Lot).
The return from diaspora, prophesied in scripture, was literal (1948)
2. The Church & Rapture. Premillennialists believe the church started around the time of Jesus first advent, typically given as Pentecost (Acts 2). Ammillennialists believe the church existed since Gen 3 and will be around until the Lord's return. For this reason, they reject a rapture.
The primary rapture passage is 1 Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." The Greek harpazo ("caught up") is rapiemur in the Latin Vulgate and it’s perfect passive form is raptus from which we derive "rapture".
Some other places we see harpazo in scripture:
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:39
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. ... How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Co 12:2-4
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Rev 12:5
3. The Tribulation. Premillennialists believe in a 7-year tribulation, ammillennialists do not.
The 7-year tribulation is based on the 70th week of Daniel 9:27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The second half of that week (or 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1,260 days, or “time, times and half-time”), is referred to as the "Great Tribulation" (Rev. 11:2; 12:6, 14; 13:5). It will be a time of trouble that the world has never seen before or ever will again:
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Jeremiah 30:7
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21
4. The Millennial Kingdom. Premillennialists view it as a literal 1000-year period on earth (Rev 20:2,5) following the Lord's return and subsequent Sheep & Goat judgement (Mat 25). They believe it is an earthly kingdom as people will die (Isaiah 65:17-25) after which the eternal kingdom commences (Revelation 21-22). Amillennialists view it as a present eternal kingdom on earth (Rev 21,25) so the 1000 years isn't literal, but symbolic.
Isn't it interesting that everybody else's mind is made up apart from the Pretribbers. The bottom line is, most of us have moved in our escaladogical position. Most Pretribbers haven't moved because they rigidly follow their leaders.
Which scriptures are you calling on to support this belief?The return from diaspora, prophesied in scripture, was literal (1948)
The OT saints are members of the Body of Christ. They were looking forward faithfully to their Redeemer. Job says it most plainly...2. The Church & Rapture. Premillennialists believe the church started around the time of Jesus first advent, typically given as Pentecost (Acts 2). Ammillennialists believe the church existed since Gen 3 and will be around until the Lord's return. For this reason, they reject a rapture.
I/we don't reject the word rapture or believers being caught to meet the Lord in the air, it's just not a separate event from the Second Coming.The primary rapture passage is 1 Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." The Greek harpazo ("caught up") is rapiemur in the Latin Vulgate and it’s perfect passive form is raptus from which we derive "rapture".
I'm not sure what you are saying here, "the present eternal kingdom on earth"? We believe in a new heaven and new earth.Amillennialists view it as a present eternal kingdom on earth (Rev 21,25) so the 1000 years isn't literal, but symbolic.
I haven't engaged here really, but are you in the Amil camp? Are you of the opinion that there is no rapture to heaven at any time? I still don't really know what you are trying to discuss or debate.
No one has taught me the scriptures but Jesus Himself. So, I don't follow any specific camp.
He said he is an Amil in the first post in this thread. You didn't read it? And, he has supported his Amil beliefs in other posts in this thread. This thread is supposed to be a debate between Amil and pretrib (premil as well, apparently).I haven't engaged here really, but are you in the Amil camp? Are you of the opinion that there is no rapture to heaven at any time? I still don't really know what you are trying to discuss or debate.
I don't accept that. But, Ok then, if He has, then show us where He teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a prolonged tribulation followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?
He said he is an Amil in the first post in this thread. You didn't read it? And, he has supported his Amil beliefs in other posts in this thread. This thread is supposed to be a debate between Amil and pretrib (premil as well, apparently).
No, feel free to post here if you want. Again, it's a debate between Amils and pretribs, but it seems premils are welcome as well. You believe in two future comings of Christ just like pretribs do, right? So, I think the intention here would be to debate your view as well. What is your understanding of Revelation 20? Do you believe what is described there will happen after Christ returns?In my view, the great tribulation started when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, and I am not Amil. So, I guess I should bow out.
That would be easy, but extremely long for a forum post. Since, you already decided not to believe me, why should I make the effort, which you also will not believe?
This thread apparently comes from a prior discussion to which I am not privy. I have asked a couple of times specifically about your position on the rapture. Why don't we just start there so I can have at least some idea of what scriptures to post in order to answer your questions. It is the first part of what you are asking. The rapture. What is your understanding of this event? Rapture to heaven? Rapture to Israel? No rapture?
Let me also ask a hypothetical question for information. If Elijah were to return (the real one, not a false one) and teach the rapture, a tribulation period, and then a later coming of Jesus, would you believe him? I know this sounds ridiculous, but your answer would be informative.
No, feel free to post here if you want. Again, it's a debate between Amils and pretribs, but it seems premils are welcome as well. You believe in two future comings of Christ just like pretribs do, right?
So, I think the intention here would be to debate your view as well. What is your understanding of Revelation 20? Do you believe what is described there will happen after Christ returns?
I do believe in the catching away of the saints. I believe when Jesus comes He will rescue His elect in total and then immediately destroy all the wicked. He will regenerate this corrupt eand we will then populate the new perfected earth.
Yes, and no. I don't claim to know everything a "pretrib" thinks, but I do understand they believe there are exactly two future comings of Christ. I do not hold this view. There are seven appointed times of Christ. Two in the past tense, His birth, and His ministry. Five appointed times are still to come. Five, not two. Rapture, Coming of the Bridegroom, Day of Visitation, 7th Trumpet, Armageddon.
The time of the end is not seven years. It is 50 years. By the end of which, man will be as rare as fine gold upon the earth, just as Isaiah wrote. Bet you never heard this before!
Yes. The 7th and final appointed time of Christ is the battle of Armageddon. This occurs at the 7th bowl of wrath and described in Rev 19 and Ezekiel 39. So, Revelation 20 is all after that battle. Likewise, Ezekiel 40-48 also applies to begin the millennium.
Ok, thank you. I have two questions.
One, Revelation 7 describes an innumerable multitude of saints in heaven in the Temple of God. They will serve Him in the Temple day and night. How does this fit into your understanding?
Two, if all the elect are rescued and the wicked destroyed at the same time, how do you explain this?
Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Satan gets cast to the earth and pursues the woman, but cannot get to them. They are protected for 3 1/2 years. Then, he goes after the rest of the saints. The same thing is recorded in Daniel.
Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered
AT the time Israel is delivered, the greatest tribulation ever is beginning. How is this possible if all the elect are rescued at the same time?
It is folly for you to invent your own theology that no one else has a revelation of and then imagine that you are the only one with the truth, especially when it doesn't correlate with the Word and you have been unable to show it anywhere in the Word.
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