American Teachers Resign Over Oddly Similar Circumstances...

Bradskii

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You just gave a rather long rationale for why you thought it, and you knew you thought it. So I am not sure what to say other than it sure sounds like it was conscious.

If I had just read the first part of the story, my unconscious bias would have remained just that - an unconscious bias. It was only by being given additional information that it was revealed.

In fact, you could use the story as a technique to discover unconscious bias. You could tell a hundred people that a young girl was taken and allow them to assume it was a white girl. Ask then how they thought the parents felt. Then tell them it was a young girl from a local tribe in the area and ask them if they adjusted their thoughts on the matter.

I did. The unconscious bias was revealed. And once revealed - once we know that it exists, we can deal with it.
 
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tall73

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If I had just read the first part of the story, my unconscious bias would have remained just that - an unconscious bias. It was only by being given additional information that it was revealed.

In fact, you could use the story as a technique to discover unconscious bias. You could tell a hundred people that a young girl was taken and allow them to assume it was a white girl. Ask then how they thought the parents felt. Then tell them it was a young girl from a local tribe in the area and ask them if they adjusted their thoughts on the matter.

I did. The unconscious bias was revealed. And once revealed - once we know that it exists, we can deal with it.

I am fine with the notion of reflection on our assumptions and bias. And I can recall some incidents where I also had a racist stereotype surface in my thoughts, or a homophobic stereotype, and then dismissed it. And I often dismissed it in connection with interaction with people to realize the stereotypes I was taught are wrong.

But I don't think of that as unconscious bias. I think of that as taking all my experiences and realizing some are misjudgments. And some were faulty lessons I had been taught. But they were still my thoughts, that I had to dismiss. I am sure the unconscious makes judgments as well, and those I likely don't realize unless something reveals it.

However, if you believe you can recognize these over time and be alert to them, and learn to dismiss mistaken notions, why do you doubt that someone like Ana can say that, partly due to correct thinking being imparted at an early age, and regular analysis of thoughts, that he doesn't experience those thoughts?

We can't escape the process and the possibility of such bias. However, if you acknowledge improvement is possible, then why are we to think some are not far ahead of others and just aren't dealing with this issue on the same level?

I was raised in a family that was racist. It was only rarely brought up. But it was spoken. I never bought into the overall notion because I lived around people of all races in my neighborhood and my families notions didn't match up to my experience of my friends, acquaintances, etc. Nor did it match up with my faith. And I was blessed to live in a time when such notions were being challenged in society, rather than reinforced. And I too would challenge them with my family when they brought them up.

However, as you alluded to, there were stereotypes I had heard, and would have to dismiss. There were conclusions I had drawn that were wrong and had to dismiss them. And the more you have done that, the less you have to do that, because there should be improvement in your thinking that is more in line with your worldview, values, and in my case, faith. As a Christian I also see God at work in changing my mind.

So I don't see a person as constantly tied to biased thoughts. Once you have gotten past what was taught to you and see the reality through interaction with people, you realize they are all unique, you can't make judgments based on externalities, or group affiliation, and you become better about not doing that. You become more consistent.

And in my interactions with people I don't find it helpful to apply an intersectional filter. If I approach a member of one group one way, and another group another way, that is in itself discrimination. I approach them as a person I want to get to know, along with their experiences. And some of those key experiences to them may have nothing to do with race. Or they might. They may have nothing to do with gender. Or they might. They may have nothing to do with sexual orientation. Or they might. But I can't approach them as an intersectional bundle of interest groups. I approach them as a person. I want to let them tell me their story as they see it, without making assumptions.

We can understand bias in society and ourselves, and historical wrongs, and the current impacts on many areas of life, without approaching someone with those in mind. Because that is its own type of stereotyping.
 
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rjs330

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It exists on a macro level, not a micro but for example, a white employer is more likely to call back someone who's resume' has an English name or a "white" sounding name.

That's not a system. That's in individual choice. Because of all the other employees that don't do that.
 
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rjs330

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You must not have read the part where I said basically it's due to the culture that was created when the laws were made to favor white people. Those laws put the white race in America in a position of power over the rest of society. The effects are less and less each new generation but we aren't far enough from Jim Crow for the entire culture to have changed. It has to do with the way the past is affecting the present. No longer with laws but the culture that was created by those laws.

The chart was to illustrate that being born white in America is more advantageous.

Admitting a problem exists doesn't automatically solve it but how can you even work on a problem if you don't believe it exists? If people are aware of the problem they will at least be more likely to check their own behavior.

The claim of CRT is not that there is racism. The claim is that it is systemic and white people currently are oppressors and black are currently oppressed. Systems are currently in place to keep blacks down and whites privileged.

Which is completely wrong. Those laws don't exist anymore. Blacks have the same opportunities as anyone else. There is no systemic oppression problem.

What exactly IS the problem and what IS the solution?
 
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rjs330

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said, it was the laws that created the culture. The laws have changed The culture is changing, There are still a lot of racists in high positions at a lot of companies. People are getting better at hiding it but it still comes out sometimes.

There are? Prove that please how many are racists and what are all these companies? Who are they and where are they?
 
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rjs330

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A couple of those are national. Here is a similar chart to the one he posted regarding median household income, in this case from census.gov

Income and Poverty in the United States: 2019

1599843858221.png


So do you dispute the trend from the late 80's on in regards to household income?

How does that prove systemic racism? It's a chart, nothing more. It does not provide the reasons why Asians make more than anyone else. Or why blacks make less. Throwing something like that out there to make a claim, must be justified as to why it is so. You haven't done that.
 
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rjs330

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POC in academia have developed a new way to correlate data that explains in detail how various sectors of our society are still imbued with the stain of racism.

But they’re met with whitesplaination about how “we’re not racist anymore!”

The oppressors do not get to decide what things are oppressive.


We’re done here, I’m not getting on your racism-apologetics merry-go-round.

(Note: the only “children” being taught any of this are 18+]

And that's exactly why CRT is a propeganda and indoctrination. Claimin that we are the oppressors. Whitesplainaition as just another nonsensical idea with no merit.

CRT seeks to blame white people for their current status as oppressors. Accusations and assumptions. Yet they have no real evidence of their assptiona that all these "systems" are racist and all these white folk are racist.
 
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rjs330

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I don't think that's a tongue-in-cheek comment. And I think it illustrates where your problem lies.

Nobody would call me a racist. I've got enough runs on the board arguing against it here and elsewhere. There's not a single person I know that would even suggest it. But how accurate is that assessment?

A couple of years ago there was a news report that a young girl had been taken by a croc in the Northern Territories. It's not unheard of that people are attacked on occasion, but the fact that it was a little girl made it seem a lot worse. I thought about the parents and how they must feel, losing their kid in such a way. I assumed that they were on a four-wheel drive camping trip and weren't knowledgeable about the risks.

Then the report ended with some information that told me that the young girl was Aboriginal from a local community. And my immediate reaction, unconsciously bubbling up uncalled? A certain relief that it wasn't a white family. And I instantly felt ashamed that the thought had entered my head. It was a racist thought. But hey, I'm not a racist person!

Which is not true. We're all racist to some extent. It's inbuilt. You just seem to not want to accept that. And ignore any moves to help people come to terms with that fact.

Funny, I remember that story. I didn't have the same thought as you. I just felt bad for the family period. I felt no relief on who the family was. It was tragic period. I guess that makes me have less racism than you?
 
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rjs330

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Pardon, I wasn’t referring to racism of the “I just don’t like them” variety but the “we must codify by law that ‘these people’ are inferior” brand of racism.
Which we’re only 55 years away from.

Ah.. thanks for the clarification.
 
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rjs330

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Luckily that's been done. Or is, at least, a work in progress. Although you seem hell bent on holding to this fantasy that all racism is somehow illegal and can be solved by legal means. Good grief, that is one doozy of a naive belief.



It's really hard not to put this in all caps...but if they they are unconscious beliefs, they don't know they are acting on them.

Do I really have to repeat this yet again? One has to know there is a problem before one can act to solve it.
but what if it's not a problem? Should a person assume a problem and then act on that assumption?
 
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rjs330

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I probably could, but I'm not going to. I suspect that line of questioning to lead to a rabbit hole down which I'm not interested in going.

33d.gif

Ah.. that's becauae you actually realize that hat trying to defend that no sense is really impossible. You know any to believe and support it because you've chosen to and not because it's actually correct. Cause if it was you would have no problem defending it.
 
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rjs330

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If I had just read the first part of the story, my unconscious bias would have remained just that - an unconscious bias. It was only by being given additional information that it was revealed.

In fact, you could use the story as a technique to discover unconscious bias. You could tell a hundred people that a young girl was taken and allow them to assume it was a white girl. Ask then how they thought the parents felt. Then tell them it was a young girl from a local tribe in the area and ask them if they adjusted their thoughts on the matter.

I did. The unconscious bias was revealed. And once revealed - once we know that it exists, we can deal with it.

Just cause you have a certain bias gives you no right to assume others.have is he same. That's what CRT does. It lumps all white people into the same pot. Hmm... Wonder what it would be if we lumped all black people into the same pot? Oh, that would be racist.
 
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rturner76

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That's not a system. That's in individual choice. Because of all the other employees that don't do that.
It is a system because it working for some and not others
 
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tall73

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How does that prove systemic racism? It's a chart, nothing more. It does not provide the reasons why Asians make more than anyone else. Or why blacks make less. Throwing something like that out there to make a claim, must be justified as to why it is so. You haven't done that.

I haven't tried to make the claim that the data regarding Asians shows systemic racism, let alone back it. In fact I provided a study showing an alternate rationale. The whole point is that differences do not automatically indicate discrimination. It was part of a larger conversation where Ana was asked about the group clearly in a better position than any other in the USA, and he pointed out that statistically that is Asians, not whites.
 
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rturner76

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The claim of CRT is not that there is racism. The claim is that it is systemic and white people currently are oppressors and black are currently oppressed. Systems are currently in place to keep blacks down and whites privileged.

Which is completely wrong. Those laws don't exist anymore. Blacks have the same opportunities as anyone else. There is no systemic oppression problem.

What exactly IS the problem and what IS the solution?
The problem is racism the solution is stop being racist and believe people when they tell you they experience it. Instead of going straight to doubt like you do.
 
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Bradskii

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Funny, I remember that story. I didn't have the same thought as you. I just felt bad for the family period. I felt no relief on who the family was. It was tragic period. I guess that makes me have less racism than you?

Using just that example? Yes.
 
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Bradskii

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but what if it's not a problem? Should a person assume a problem and then act on that assumption?

Assume a problem? I'm not sure what you mean. Unless you're a member of some ultra right wing white supremacy group then I would think that realising that you had a racial bias would be a problem.
 
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Bradskii

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Just cause you have a certain bias gives you no right to assume others.have is he same. That's what CRT does. It lumps all white people into the same pot. Hmm... Wonder what it would be if we lumped all black people into the same pot? Oh, that would be racist.

You don't assume it. You tell people (all people) that this is an entirely inbuilt and unconscious facet of our evolutionary past. It was handy back in the day and it still has some uses now. We need to be aware of it because it can result in us judging people on certain characteristics which are not relevant: skin colour, accent etc.

So if we're aware that that might be, or actually is happening, then we are aware of the problem and can deal with it.

And you're right. It lumps white people into the same pot. Because that pot includes literally everyone. Whatever your ethnicity, your background, your religion, your 'race', the colour of your skin, your accent - everyone is the same.

If I was a parent and someone wanted to introduce crt into my kid's school, I'd applaud it. But I'd be the first guy on his feet to put anyone straight who considered this a problem that was only relevant to one group.

As I said, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't demand that crt should be thrown out. Demand that it's taught correctly.
 
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Ah.. that's becauae you actually realize that hat trying to defend that no sense is really impossible. You know any to believe and support it because you've chosen to and not because it's actually correct. Cause if it was you would have no problem defending it.

There’s a difference between being un/able to defend something and thinking it’s worth the effort. As I’ve explained to others elsewhere in the past, I try to be more selective in choosing my battles these days, because there are a number of subjects and a number of people whom I no longer think are worth the effort.

ProTip: If you want to accuse me of spreading nonsense and you hope to have that accusation taken seriously, you would do well to proofread your comments before hitting the “Post Reply” button. I can decipher the gibberish in your first sentence, but the gibberish in the second sentence has me stumped.
 
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