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American Teachers Resign Over Oddly Similar Circumstances...

Bradskii

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I'd like to see the evidence for that. Since history doesn't go back that far. In fact we often see that your assertion is false. Most societies didn't have equal division of labor as far back as we can see.

We have definitely moved on from that point. That was done and dealt with at least a week back and I have no interest in keeping you up to date if you aren't reading the posts.
 
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Ana the Ist

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You are kidding me, right? I don't think I've posted anything directed to you that didn't contain a question.

Right.

Most have been asked at least half a dozen times and they are either ignored or deflected.

Now Bradskii....I answered most of them. You should count yourself lucky I didn't require you answer a question of mine for each one I answered.

The last variation on only the second question has been in posts 242, 271 and 279. I can't be bothered to go further back and list the others.

In your own time...

Ok...from 279...

I'm not talking about supplying the advantage. At least not yet (plenty of time to get to that point). But an actual numerical advantage that exists (based on the ratio of blacks v whites of course). So do you agree that some advantages as I noted such as access to college-ready courses or proficiency in maths or reading exist?

You're asking me whether or not there are more white students than black?

Or are you asking me if I think this numerical difference creates an advantage of some kind?
 
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Bradskii

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Ok...from 279...

You're asking me whether or not there are more white students than black?

Or are you asking me if I think this numerical difference creates an advantage of some kind?

I'd appreciate it if you didn't treat me as an idiot. It doesn't make you look too good.

How about you check out the three posts? Then get back to me when you've thought of another way of not answering the question. We'll deal with that when it arises. But I think I may have to ask the question a seventh or eighth time.

Hey, there's no rush...
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'd appreciate it if you didn't treat me as an idiot. It doesn't make you look too good.

How about you check out the three posts? Then get back to me when you've thought of another way of not answering the question. We'll deal with that when it arises. But I think I may have to ask the question a seventh or eighth time.

Hey, there's no rush...

I already answered the other 2 posts....post #276.
 
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Bradskii

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I already answered the other 2 posts....post #276.

Which was replied to:

'I'm not talking about supplying the advantage. At least not yet (plenty of time to get to that point). But an actual numerical advantage that exists (based on the ratio of blacks v whites of course). So do you agree that some advantages as I noted such as access to college-ready courses or proficiency in maths or reading exist?'
 
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Ana the Ist

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Which was replied to:

'I'm not talking about supplying the advantage. At least not yet (plenty of time to get to that point). But an actual numerical advantage that exists (based on the ratio of blacks v whites of course).

That's exactly what makes this a confusing question. I pointed out earlier in the thread that one group having more numbers than another doesn't necessarily constitute an advantage.

So when I asked you.....

Or are you asking me if I think this numerical difference creates an advantage of some kind?

I meant it sincerely...not as an insult.
 
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Bradskii

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That's exactly what makes this a confusing question. I pointed out earlier in the thread that one group having more numbers than another doesn't necessarily constitute an advantage.

So when I asked you.....

Or are you asking me if I think this numerical difference creates an advantage of some kind?

I meant it sincerely...not as an insult.

I've been using the term 'advantage' because it was used in one of the original points I raised. Meaning a 'numerical advantage'. But that term appears to be too complicated. So let's simplify it.

Are there more whites than blacks (with full regard to the proportions of each) that have access to college-ready courses or that have proficiency in maths or reading?
 
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Ana the Ist

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I've been using the term 'advantage' because it was used in one of the original points I raised. Meaning a 'numerical advantage'. But that term appears to be too complicated. So let's simplify it.

Are there more whites than blacks (with full regard to the proportions of each) that have access to college-ready courses or that have proficiency in maths or reading?

I have no idea...I certainly don't know what is considered "access" in this context.

What's more is I'm not sure why that would be considered an advantage. I can have access to a high powered telescope....but if I don't know how to use it, that access doesn't provide me with any sort of advantage over someone without access.

What is access, in your mind?

Are we talking about merely attending a school that offers such courses?
 
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rjs330

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Sure . . . I accept that that is wrong. But what I read about Critical Race Theory did not say that sort of stuff.

So . . . like I have considered . . . perhaps there are certain ones trying to highjack Critical Race Theory for what some number of people do not think it means.

What I have read is simply that racism is a big American problem. And I see this can be a pandemic thing, since in order for racism to continue there can be not only the obvious bad actors but the perhaps-many who do not do what could stop it. . . . or do what would make it of less and less effect.

And, like I have meant, perhaps the real battlefield against racism is in each individual's self, so we do not allow racist people to decide how we are and we do not be racist, ourselves.

And, by the way > I have thought of this, while we are at it > if people are evil and depending on something which is wrong and hurtful, they "might" not be the ones to expect to straighten things out! So, exposing the wrong people and begging them to get a clue could be not what can work.

But, even if I can not get any high-up person to do what is good, my example can help people I share with personally. And the value of good example can help people deeper than public changes which could have only a superficial effect.

For argument sake let's say your right. CRT is not meant to teach that. The problem would be it IS being used to teach that.

Or perhaps you are incorrect. Because it is overwhelmingly being used to teach that, then it we should probably consider that you are incorrect. Either that or the left, including acedemia is competely in error on their understanding of CRT.

Are you asserting that?
 
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rjs330

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I didn't see one either, but here, he says that at least part of his objection was over his own kids being forced to wear masks:

like... why? What's the problem with your kid having to wear a mask?



I have no problem believing that leadership in any organization can be authoritarian and adamant about drinking the company kool-aid, but I also believe that people are stupid and whiny and gullible and eager to get bent out of shape over idiotic nonsense that somebody on the internet told them was bad. If hundreds of people can be convinced to storm the capitol building based on obvious, falsifiable lies cooked up by a bunch of self-serving media personalities, then I'm not surprised at all that a handful of teachers could be convinced to quit their jobs over something that may or may not exist.

As to how many teachers I'd have to see do this before I started believing it's a problem - that's a good question, but some direct quotes with evidence would be a good start.



I did not catch it. Notice, though, the group against which they're reacting:
Parents Against Critical Theory

The group to which they're reacting also seems pretty organized and at least a little kooky given their usage of the "George Soros" boogeyman.



Forget about the Lost Cause movement already?
Or creationism/intelligent design?



Some of our disagreement on this subject may stem from the fact while I don't like any of the illiberal or authoritarian elements of contemporary wokeness, unlike (I assume) you, I don't see them as being substantively different (except perhaps in scope) than what groups with power have been doing to minorities in this country for eons.

Is it bad that some folks feel like they have to hide their true feelings in order to protect their livelihoods? Yeah. And there are a bunch of gays and atheists who can sympathize.

Is it bad that some men are having their thoughts and ideas dismissed simply because of their gender? Yeah. And there are bunch of women who can sympathize.

Is it bad that some white folks lose out on positions simply because somebody decided to give it to a non-white person? Yeah. And a bunch of black folks can sympathize.

Is it bad that men are presumed guilty of certain offenses merely because they're men? Yeah. And a number of groups can sympathize.

This whole good-for-the-goose-good-for-the-gander element is part of why I don't put much stock in all the whining about CRT. I'll be the first to admit that some of its proponents are dumb, overapply its concepts to explain away complicated issues, and/or have some really silly ideas for public policy. But the underlying oppressor/oppressed framework it uses to describe society seems self-evident to me; looking back on our history, it's just obviously true. It's not the whole truth; but it's part of the truth. And when folks start screaming about suddenly being at some disadvantage (or even a less-elevated advantage than they previously enjoyed), but were perfectly okay with the previous status quo and seek to downplay others' complaints of real disadvantages, then I start to think their complaints are more self-serving than they want to let on.

What's his objection to masks got to do with anything? Do they somehow nullify his objections to CRT?

And teachers leaving isn't in just one place. That should tell you the concern is in a lot of places. And are you calling university educated people too ignorant to understand what is going on in their schools? They somehow thought it was great until they heard different on the internet? You know we could use that same argument about any liberals. Those who think CRT is great only thought so cause they heard it on the internet. Is that accurate?
 
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rjs330

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I'm not morally justifying anything. I'm attacking the motivations for the complaints about CRT. IOW, I don't think a lot of the complaints are driven from sincere concerns about injustice.

Your entitled to your opinion. It doesn't make it right though. It's just an opinion.

So far we've shown you facts about what is being taught. Do you have any facts that show our concern over what is being taught is not sincere concern over the injustice if it?
 
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Bradskii

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I have no idea...I certainly don't know what is considered "access" in this context.

What's more is I'm not sure why that would be considered an advantage. I can have access to a high powered telescope....but if I don't know how to use it, that access doesn't provide me with any sort of advantage over someone without access.

What is access, in your mind?

Are we talking about merely attending a school that offers such courses?

We are talking about whether you think that more white kids or black kids have access to college-ready courses. Many schools offer them.

And what is access? Please be serious.
 
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com7fy8

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For argument sake let's say your right. CRT is not meant to teach that. The problem would be it IS being used to teach that.

Or perhaps you are incorrect. Because it is overwhelmingly being used to teach that, then it we should probably consider that you are incorrect. Either that or the left, including acedemia is competely in error on their understanding of CRT.

Are you asserting that?
First, thank you for taking the time to deal with me, about this :)

My general impression of people, is we can use anything to suit our own purposes. And we might not correctly represent whatever we use. For one example, I think ones can see that the United States Constitution is not being used for its originally intended purpose and therefore its rightful interpretation. Much use of it has been for selfish stuff, and fighting for control . . . for whose benefit?

Individual rights can be used to isolate a person to one's own things.

And likewise, I think we can see humans using the Bible, like this.

We can highjack . . . any of us.

So, this is why I say Critical Race Theory might be misrepresented, and highjacked.

But yes I see that mainstream, not only left people, could consider Critical Race Theory to be a Marxist item, which the left would hope to use in education . . . not to help black people, but to recruit them to help take down the present United States government and society.

Even so, I see things about Critical Race Theory that can be correct . . . though I do not think Marxism and the left agenda is to be trusted to bring the best solution.

Wrong people can have the ability to see what is wrong with me; but they are not role models of which way I need to go.

...and hence the American society is irredeemable. It must be destroyed and a new one built from the ground up. Not just the government, but all social institutions.
So, then, the idea is > everything has to go; and there needs to be a totally new beginning. Does this not remind you of something? Do ones into this see how they might in some way be saying American needs to be "born again"?

Except, they do not mean to change to being with Jesus, now, do they? They only want things their way.

Once again there are racists. But the very fact we are selfish does not equate that we have racist tendencies. It just merely equates that we are selfish. That's it.
I said something like, that there are people who are aggressively racist, but may be there is such a thing as passive racism . . . not doing what we could do.

And since all humans have selfish nature, we have what is capable of racism, even if we do not actively use the ability. In our selfishness we might not act out a racist thing, but we can discriminate in other ways > for example, ones can discriminate against less beautiful women, even liking and loving certain women less, merely because they are not pleasing in how they look, the way others might be. That is discrimination, and it can effect how well we can relate and love . . . though it is not actively racist. And it can feed a person to not love ones of other ethnic groups as well as God would have us loving. So, it can produce racism by omission, if not active racism.

Active racism, for certain people, could be counterproductive, of course, causing a person to waste his or her time away from what he or she enjoys and wants. So, being just omissive . . . passive . . . could be more productive - - by just not doing anything, not saying anything - - leaving people less educated, and isolated, more or less.

So, I can see another interesting coincidence > the Marxists are saying all are racists. They are saying "all have sinned"! But they leave God out. They claim all have sinned . . . in comparison with Marxism, not in comparison with the glory of God.

What I see is that we all have sinned, because all of us have had our selfish nature; and this nature includes the character to discriminate . . . somehow. And because of our discriminatory ways of picking and choosing who is worth loving, whom we consider good enough for us to love and care about . . . we have all been racist, somehow . . . at least by simply not loving ones of other groups the way Jesus would have us loving any and all people. So, there is the racism by omission, at least, of not loving the way God wants.

But our most active and obvious discrimination might be in how we favor ones because of beauty, money, charm, smart talking . . . favoring ones who show us what we hope to use for what we want. And in our passive discrimination we just are not concerned with others.
 
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rjs330

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Probably because people feel it's a fairly simple concept. You have seen all of the stats that show a disparity along racial lines in most categories, you just think it's for different reasons.

Uh huh... And what facts are there to show it's strictly based on racism?

You often also forget that what happens in the past will affect what happens in the future which is now the present. Also, you have seen the examples, you just do not accept them. People are answering the question, you just do not believe their answer. An example of part of the problem.

No one's forgetting the past. Of course the past affects the future. But we can't change the past. What we have done is changed the present and the future. The civil rights act and other laws that outlaw acts which prove society has altered it's course. Society as a whole no longer believes in nor approves of racist acts. Times have changed. Its time to recognize that and take advantage of it.
 
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VirOptimus

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Uh huh... And what facts are there to show it's strictly based on racism?



No one's forgetting the past. Of course the past affects the future. But we can't change the past. What we have done is changed the present and the future. The civil rights act and other laws that outlaw acts which prove society has altered it's course. Society as a whole no longer believes in nor approves of racist acts. Times have changed. Its time to recognize that and take advantage of it.
Your position is that there are zero institutionalised racism in the US?
 
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com7fy8

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Society as a whole no longer believes in nor approves of racist acts. Times have changed. Its time to recognize that and take advantage of it.
And yes, as you have said, now there are plenty of people who are just living their lives; they are not trying to put down black people or anyone else.
 
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rjs330

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I am confident that there is no explanation that you will accept. I've seen great explanations of how it works and you just wave it off. It's not for lack of information, it's for lack of information you like.

Unfortunately for you there is no explanation needed. The OP defines what CRT is. What you are trying to do is explain away the actual definition. Saying it's not really what it says. Redefining the definition. It doesn't work though, no matter how hard you try.
 
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