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Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Grip Docility, Dec 3, 2017.

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  1. Just that. We all sin and to judge by the law is to be condemned by the law

    14 vote(s)
    73.7%
  2. Christians can judge everyone, but everyone can’t judge Christians

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Whatever it needs to mean. It’s just a guideline

    1 vote(s)
    5.3%
  4. Jesus meant we should judge others!

    4 vote(s)
    21.1%
  1. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    The quote you attributed to me as having said, is not anything I've stated. As highly as I think of the man and respect him and agree with on many many things, I do not follow Luther, and much of what he wrote pertains to the time in which he lived and dealings and disputes with the Roman Church. What we should be concerned with, is what did Jesus Christ himself have to say about the law and the prophets in Scripture? In Matthew 5 starting with verse 17 we read:

    Mt 5:17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

    Mt 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

    What Jesus spoke in Mt 22:37-39, was NOT anything new, it has ALWAYS been the case, but do not take my word for it, search the Old Testament Scriptures please.

    Concerning reading Jesus into....Jesus Christ the eternal Son of God is Lord of what is called the Old and New Testaments, He is Lord of the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace, and Christ made it clear that He did not come to abolish the law. For all of those in Christ, He fulfilled the righteousness of the law, and His substitutional atonement for all who are in Christ, means He made us who are unrighteous, righteous by His blood, so it is not a righteousness we can claim as our own, but the righteousness of Christ He imputes to everyone that is in Him. (If I had more time I would get into Sanctification and the work of the Spirit in believers but I'm pressed for time.) At the same time, those who are not in Christ, are under the Covenant of Works, meaning the law of God, still applies to all societies today (enforced or not). I feel as though I have oversimplified more than I would have liked, so much more could be said, but hope this will be read by at least one person.
     
  2. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    I do not deny biblical inerrancy and would appreciate if you could refrain from telling me what I believe or assume you're in the know. I do not and will not have a Calvinist vs the rest of the world debate over how Scripture is interpreted in this thread. Thanks
     
  3. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    Why discuss oversimplification when Paul says what he says in 1 Corinthians 1:17?

    If Jesus is correct that the kingdom is made up of those like little children... and 2 Corinthians 11:3 is to be believed... isn’t simplification what Christ intended?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  4. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    I also would appreciate if you don’t level the word atheist towards me, or even close to me.

    I would gladly meet you at John 5:39, 1 John 2:2 and Hebrews 2:9 as long as you acknowledge what scripture inerrantly says.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  5. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    It applies to all religion that would confuse Law and Gospel.


    We do not believe he abolished the Law either, since the Law has become a mirror in which we see our condition as sinners. We as Lutherans simply don't believe the Law is so important in guiding a Christian in how to live. Our ethics is more sophisticated than resorting to biblicist legalism.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  6. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    The same could be said for Presbyterians, the point I was trying to get at about the law is the application to those not in Christ. We who are in Christ, are not under the law, though we are to be submissive to civil law to the point it does not contradict the law given by God. As far as I'm concerned post #55 nailed this topic to the door.
     
  7. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    BTW, I do agree that judging Presbyterians by the standards of Donald Trump is not wise. Trump grew up under the tutelage of Norman Vincent Peale, who was not only criticized by a diverse range of theologians and ministers, but also many psychologists who considered his ideas quackery.

    Now days Trump (rarely) goes to an Episcopal church of the rich and famous in Palm Beach. His old Presbyterian church is now multicultural and multiracial and I doubt he would find an easy home there.
     
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  8. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    I was careful to use the word "similar" and explained, and wanted you to see the similarity, not to insult, but for correction, for helping with understanding. I am sorry for not coming up with a better way to convey the same meaning, and sorry you felt insulted, which I can understand, but I sensed a lack of....love in your original response to me. Sorry if my senses led me in a wrong direction.

    I have been enguaged in a lengthy discussion of what I believe in the following thread: A Few Questions for Calvinists (Trying to figure out what you believe).

    I could post literally hundreds of Scriptures and make the same claim you do, but I have been on both sides of this.
     
  9. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    You were carful to cover your tail, while implying something.

    All is well and done.

    I’m taking a chill pill. You remain my brother in Jesus.
     
  10. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

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    Because many people lack the ability to see their own sin.
     
  11. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    Amen!!! And...
     
  12. joshcorn

    joshcorn Member

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    Judge not lest ye be judged

    This is a warning not to judge someone when you do the same thing because judgment will fall on you.

    There are two ways to judge. The carnal way as to the carnal thinking on the meaning of judge. You loose out every time.
    Then there is the spiritual way. Judging in the discerning way. The ability to discern the fruit in someones life. This is not to point a finger at the person but to bring life to them if the Lord so directs you to speak to them.
     
  13. Yonny Costopoulis

    Yonny Costopoulis Well-Known Member

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    You are correct.

    Today many Conservative Christians blindly support a POTUS who brags about sexually assaulting women by grabbing their vaginas. Brags about being a perverted Peeping Tom and spying on naked women at his pageants. Has run a conman Trump University to scam desperate people out of their last dollars. Has supported Nazis and the KKK, calling some of them "very fine people." Has attacked Puerto Ricans in the aftermath of a devastating hurricane. Lies continuously. Acts in a most despicable and disgusting manner on an almost daily basis, one that we would not accept from a six year old child, let alone a grown mature man.

    None of this behavior seems Christian to me, yet many Christians defend it.
     
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