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Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Grip Docility, Dec 3, 2017.

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  1. Just that. We all sin and to judge by the law is to be condemned by the law

    14 vote(s)
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  2. Christians can judge everyone, but everyone can’t judge Christians

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  3. Whatever it needs to mean. It’s just a guideline

    1 vote(s)
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  4. Jesus meant we should judge others!

    4 vote(s)
    21.1%
  1. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    That's exactly how we read the Scriptures. But we should never read Jesus in light of the Law and Prophets. As Luther said, we should not turn him into "another Moses".
     
  2. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you are saying now.

    I see judging and condemning as separate. First you judge good vs evil.....then you reward or condemn. I cant find fault in either one, or I'd be a hypocrite.....I do, however, state which side I feel the blessings and curses are on.

    I like the plugged in analogy....yet I believe this is possible and the goal of man today...... We got unplugged when we started eating of the forbidden fruit. Now we must learn to put down the fruit and search for and eat of the tree of life......after which, we shall die no more.

    "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
     
  3. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    Well the end of the teaching shows that when we come in faith to the Lord and submit to him "as LORD" then we are really plugging back in and allowing Him to determine our path. What is good or evil is defined by Him, we accept those definitions and abhor and avoid the evil.
     
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  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    I don't think a relationship with Jesus is about "defining evil". I think its more about showing the same hospitality to strangers, the oppressed, and the vulnerable that he did. Our ethics must therefore be personalist and relational. No bronze age law, no matter where it comes from, can circumscribe that.
     
  5. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    That is fine and also not what I am talking about. We live having to choose between good and evil. Each and every day sin is shoved in our faces... on TV, radio, magazines we have to look at while checking out of the grocery store. It is in the conversation of those around us, and so much more. And we have to endure that, and choose righteousness over it. That means we have judged between righteousness and unrighteousness and didn't condemn the sinner, just chose the path of light over the path others walk on.

    Be blessed.
    Ken
     
  6. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    Aha!

    God is Judge! We aren’t to reach for His tree of wisdom.

    He is He and we are we.

    I do believe the accuser of the brethren was a moral judge... and Jesus called moral judges of the time He was first physically with us... serpents.

    This ties to your earlier discussion. After all Isaiah 14:14 “to be like God”
     
  7. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    Now, this is well! We have enough of a Plank to focus on, we need not look beyond to others “specs”.
     
  8. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    I don't think we are capable of choosing true righteousness. Good and evil are above our pay-grade. God gave the people holy to him alone, a holy law and... the Son of God was executed anyways. Exposing a deep sickness in humanity that goes all the way back.

    It seems to me there is a new covenant based on grace, inagurated in Jesus own flesh and blood. We live in acordance with that when our lives proclaim God's loving reign. Not when we "live the right way".
     
  9. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    The very fact that our righteousness is equated with filthy rags, is enough to drive this home. I agree.
     
  10. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    It's ironic because yesterday at church was the reading from Isaiah, the lamentation prayer to God, where the "filthy rags" came up. Advent, the period before Christmas, is a penitential season for us.

    I don't think we can choose to do good in the world, but we do good when it is "spontaneous" or arises naturally, when our left hand does not know what our right hand is doing. Asceticism definitely has a place in the Christian life to prepare us for this, to train us, we do not deny this, but it is not an end in itself, and it is not the measure of a Christian.
     
  11. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    I do believe we can choose one or the other, but I believe deprivation pulls us towards evil.

    Your left hand not knowing correlation makes sense.
     
  12. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    I will say this; Calvinism begets more Calvinism and defends the right to judge more ardently than any other sect.

    Calvinism immediately splits humanity and no matter how ardently it sweeps Hebrews 2:9 and 1 John 2:2 under the rug... or attempts to burry them under 3000 pages of puritanical writing, they remain a reminder that there’s a reason something isn’t okay there.
     
  13. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    No, Yeshua called SOME rulers of the day serpents and hypocrites. There were two schools of Pharisees in that day, one taught letter if the law and the other taught spirit of the law. The Pharisees who taught spirit of the law were in agreement with Yeshua on everything but divorce, that is the one instance where he sided with Beit Shammai, the School of Shammai, which taught letter of the law. Just sharing this to say be careful not to attribute an evil intent/motive as a blanket statement. Some fit the bill, some didn't.
     
  14. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    The entire law was based on loving God and loving neighbor so love, grace... all of that, has ALWAYS been what God's promises were/are built on. Anything less means He changed. And when we choose God's ways, we are choosing righteousness. I can prove that in the definition of the words if you're interested. But anytime we choose God's path over the world's path we are choosing righteousness. That said, I do admit, we are not capable of doing it 24/7/365 which is why God is going to write His law in full on our hearts.
     
  15. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    Interesting ... was Nicodemus a spirit of the law type?
     
  16. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't say but I have always assumed so. I do know for a fact that Paul was. His teacher was Gamaliel (mentioned twice in Acts) who was the grandson of Hillel, for whom that school (Beit Hillel) was named. Beit Hillel was known to teach spirit of the Law and Beit Shammai the letter of the Law. The difference? The spirit of the law considers the intent, the depth, the heart behind the letters. For example... Yeshua said that to even look and lust in the heart at a woman is to have already committed adultery... the commandment was broken in essence, in the intent behind the letter. He did the same when he said that to hate your brother is to murder him (paraphrased). Once hate entered the heart, you might as well taken a pistol and fired. Neither example negates the physical... it is still a sin to kill or sleep with a woman outside of marriage... but to break the command one doesn't even have to get as far as the physical.

    His true point Grip... wasn't to show us that it is actually harder to live by the Spirit (it is) but that we need God to circumcise our minds and hearts, fully write His instructions so that we can't ever sin. Until that day brother... we do the best we can. :)

    Incidentally... the Acts 15 letter is really the reversing of a decision that happened 50 years earlier when Shammai's position was accepted as halacha (Jewish law) over Hillel's in a debate they had on what was expected of a proselyte.
     
  17. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    Thank you. I have learned something.
     
  18. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    How similar to atheists your comment is, allow me to demonstrate by changing one word..."Christianity begets more Christianity and defends the right to judge...Christianity immediately splits humanity." Do you not see how that in itself is hate speech? I suppose you're entitled to it. ALL Christians should defend not just some truth, but the whole truth, and if that means being hated, well it's nothing new, goes back almost as long as man has been on the earth.
     
  19. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    How similar to Atheists your comment is.

    You deny biblical inerrancy by making 1 John 2:2 and Hebrews 2:9 mere suggestions that have zero biblical authority.

    You can flip the tables, but it is I and many others that count all Humanity our brethren and count all humanity including self... reprobate and in need of Christ... equal need.

    It is you that divide humanity through theological Sophistry.

    I do not hate you. I love you and all people. I, however, unapologetically... do not approve of any rhetoric that marginalizes scripture and claims supreme authority over theology, while simultaneously claiming to be sola scripture.

    You chose to connect my words to a person who says there is no God in their heart and made this a personal attack. There are people who believe they’re atheists, but simply don’t believe in the God of Calvinism. I simply reused your phrase because it was out of place and was ad hominem.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  20. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Active Member

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    Del copy
     
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