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Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Grip Docility, Dec 3, 2017.

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  1. Just that. We all sin and to judge by the law is to be condemned by the law

    14 vote(s)
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  2. Christians can judge everyone, but everyone can’t judge Christians

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  3. Whatever it needs to mean. It’s just a guideline

    1 vote(s)
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  4. Jesus meant we should judge others!

    4 vote(s)
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  1. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think a person has an obligation to disagree with sin. Disagreement or debate is not the same as being judgemental. Jesus called Herod a fox (Luke 13:32).

    Suppose a man trips and falls on a banana peel in the produce section of a supermarket. If he is forgiving, he will not sue the supermarket. If he is judgemental, he might ask the court to award him $4 million for injury, pain and suffering. In 1994 a jury awarded a NM woman over $2 million dollars after she suffered burns from spilling McDonald's hot coffee on her lap. Judgemental people and their lawyers are greedy.

    A judgemental person might ask for a preemptive strike against N. Korea, while a prudent person might be on heightened alert and complain loudly about N. Korean threats, but not fire a shot.

    I seen it written, "In war, truth is the first causality." One should not rush to judgement.
     
  2. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    By definition it is judging. If you see me in sin (doesn't matter what kind, let's just say I am blatantly drunk and starting fights) you would have to be able to judge that I am in error in order to correct or rebuke (or in worse cases, shun) me. There shouldn't be a stigma attached to the word "judge".... it is ok to judge, we HAVE TO in order to know right from wrong. The line is judging another (person) unto condemnation. That is God's job and that is where we are not supposed to go.
     
  3. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think it’s a difficult business that asks for a lot of maturity and discernment. Take 1 Cor 5:11 - clearly Paul had a very strong view about this. Balance that with Romans 2:3 and you have a bit more perspective. I think we are called to be discerning, or rather to learn how to be discerning, and make right judgements, but not in emotional, religious self-righteousness, which is likely to bring the judgement back down on us.
     
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Which is highly overrated. Many people in this world do just fine without having a rigid moral code. This is down more to neurology than morality, such as the presence of mirror-neurons in the brain. Most people have some degree of empathy for other human beings and it allows them to function much of the time even without having to make moral judgments.

    In my mind there's not much difference. Peoples judgments are perfectly capable of creating hell for others. Words can hurt.
     
  5. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain to me the difference between this message and the message given by the serpent in eden? "Did God truly say not the eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil?"
     
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  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I think it depends on how you are viewing the word judge. Do you view judging to mean:
    a) decide a person's final destination: heave or hell
    b) deciding if a person's actions are moral/amoral
    c) both a and b

    Matthew 7:1-2
    Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

    Judging whether someone is going to heaven or hell, is not our place, and thus completely inappropriate.
    Judging moral/amoral actions is a different story. We are absolutely allowed to the that, but in a certain context. Can a murderer with no remorse tell a thief he is wrong for stealing? Can a liar with no remorse tell a coveter he is wrong for coveting? He can, but it would be hypocritical.

    Jesus then finishes this the "do not judge" with this:
    Matthew 7:3-5
    Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while there is still a beam in your own eye? 5You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

    If you love your brother you will judge their actions, but first it must start with your own repentance. If I go on sinning and my brother does not judge my actions, does he really love me? Does a good father not judge his children?

    We are to judge those inside the body of Christ, because we love them. Outside of the body of Christ? Well we leave that up to God.

    1 Corinthians 5:12-13
    But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
    12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”b



     
  7. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    Our bias makes this hard to see but I will try one more time than drop it. You list yourself as a Lutheran... why not a Pentecostal or even a Jehovah's Witness? Is it because you have viewed Scripture, found that the Lutheran doctrine aligns to your view and have chosen that denomination/community to fellowship with? Assuming it is something along those lines... you had to judge the JW's or whoever to determine that they hold a position(s) that stand opposed to your own convictions/conclusions. You had to judge.

    Agreed, but there is a difference between words creating a hell for somebody and you judging whether one will receive life or death for eternity. Judging unto condemnation is making that negative determination. That is simply not the same as saying or doing things that demean and malign others. That is wrong too (see Pro. 6:16-19 - emphasis on vs. 19) but not the same thing.
     
  8. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; (17) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

    Not sure I get where you are going, Raymond? The answer is yes, of course... but man did eat and man has been choosing on his own between good and evil ever since. So what is your point/question?
     
  9. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    I'm a Lutheran because God has called me to be one. That's not from a process of judging other churches doctrines, at least not very much (I mean, I'm obviously not going to become Mormon because I just its doctrinesto be false). I barely even really understood Lutheran doctrines when I started attending this church, aside from the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Nevertheless, I now believe it is true because I see that the beliefs are coherent and that it produces real Christians.

    I'm not so sure about that. I don't believe God judges anyone. Our sins condemn us, God does not. God got out of the judging business on Golgotha 2,000 years ago. I think that's how we reconcile various aspects of the Scriptures and Christian tradition. It's quite like the Orthodox perspective, I agree that hell is simply the presence of God to those who are spiritually blind.

    Jesus was merely warning people about Reality as it is. He was not saying "you better try to please God or else". He was just saying, look, this is the way the world is, if you create a hell for people on earth, you will inherit it in the world to come.
     
  10. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    I was contemplating whether or not Judging was the same as eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.....and with your knowledge, I felt you would be a good person to ask.

    The statement, We have to judge, sounds similar to the story given by the serpent......which was that it was ok to learn good vs evil by eating from the tree. Adam was naked before the fruit, yet did not judge it as shameful until after listening to the serpent/eating.

    I guess it would seem like there is not point in this discussion if one believes that we have to continue eating the fruit now that Adam did...... If this is your view, or if you do not liken eating the fruit to judging....then you are right...there is no point in continuing the conversation.
     
  11. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

    I can certainly list off many verses like the above. We are judged as we judge and we are not to judge unto condemnation... but are to judge.

    Psalm 75:7 But God is the Judge; He puts down one and exalts another.

    Psalm 50:6 And the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is judge. Selah.

    2 Tim 4:8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

    Again, I can list many more... God is judge, that is Scripture.
     
  12. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Sure, but human language about God is at best analogical. God is like a judge, obviously he has created a lawful universe with consequences for our actions, but that doesn't necessarily mean that God actively condemns anyone exactly as a human judge would.
     
  13. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    Then yes, I would say you are probably correct. We have generally taught this in this fashion... but remember, this is just a picture.

    Before Adam fell it was 'as if' he was plugged into God. God was his source for everything including information. But when Adam ate of the tree of good and evil and his eyes were opened to BOTH... it was 'as if' he unplugged and he then began to have to choose between the two. We still have to choose today... God sets before us life and death, blessing and cursing... and we are expected to choose life. But we have to be able to judge between good and evil or light and darkness in order to make the right choice.

    I am not suggesting we run around in judgement of one another, I am simply saying that the bible reveals that we do live having to judge (righteously) so that we make sure WE are on the correct path. Why haven't I dropped everything and run to Islam, Free Masonry, or anything else? Because I have studied and judged that those two I mention (as examples) are not in line with the harmony of Scripture. I had to judge to make that determination BUT I judged without condemning those who are currently Muslims.
     
  14. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    You say "like a judge" and the bible says "God is judge." It also says He has a judgement seat and that we will stand before Him and be judged. I can't spiritualize that... it is too plainly stated to not be what it says it is. You are welcome to judge my conclusion to be in error and follow your own conviction. Be blessed. :)
     
  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Ken, I notice a tendency on your part to quote alot from the Hebrew scriptures to make a case. As a Lutheran, I find that problematic. I would rather focus on Jesus and interpret the Hebrew scriptures in light of his example. After all, I'm a Christian, a Christ-follower, not a Jew. That's not to deny that Jesus was born a Jew, or that understanding Judaism might have something to do with understanding Jesus, but I'd rather understand Jesus as his own person and not merely as a representative of his culture. We believe he was the Son of God with a message that transcended any particular culture.

    I think many Christians make this error, frankly, and it is not unique to you. It's more a byproduct of the Puritan/Reformed tendency to view the Bible as a bunch of facts about God and his ways, with the Bible as a regulative norm for all human behavior. We Lutherans view the Bible as the story about Jesus, and we are primarily interested in the Bible inasmuch as it tells us something about him.

    This Christocentric focus is what differentiates us from others who also believe in Sola Scriptura. We believe in Scriptures alone because the Bible is the only infallible guide we have to Jesus life and his will for our lives.
     
  16. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    Yeshua was Jewish, he read from Hebrew scrolls in the Temple, spoke Aramaic and that isn't in question as there are no Greek manuscripts found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and those findings encompass His time. The Scriptures were written by Jewish people save for 2... and ALL OF THEM were influenced by Hebraic thought and that can be shown in their use of Hebraic idioms and other abstract phraseology as well as exegetical methods. Paul, for an example of the latter, uses various Rules of Hillel... very JEWISH methods of interpretation... in his writings and those rules are there to affect context deliberately. We are not even taught those rules exist let alone can identify and apply them. So that, in PART, is why I focus and will continue to focus on the Hebrew.
     
  17. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    To read only in English and to interpret only through our modern, Greek influenced, Western minds... will still allow us to find God and serve Him. But it also leaves food on the table that He intended for us to eat.
     
  18. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    Like so many mainline Protestant denominations, Presbyterians are also divided especially in modern times into conservative and liberal categories and not that I agree, but a person may embrace conservativism in politics, while embracing liberalism on religion. I do not think our President has lived as a conservative for a substantial amount of time, and I have no clue how long he has claimed to be a Presbyterian. In short, it is disgusting and distasteful to use our president and his claims as a springboard to hurl insult at Calvinists, as though he were the model Calvinist the model Presbyterian. There is little question he is a good businessman, which had far more to do with his election into office, than his religious claims. Finally we should not be so ignorant as to blame the president for everything that goes wrong in the country.
     
  19. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Yes, but Jesus was not only a Jew, he was the eternal Logos of God, consubstantial with the Father before all worlds. We do believe that he was capable of delivering a message that transcended his cultural setting. We read the Scriptures themselves through Jesus, because he is God, that he still speaks through the Spirit to us today. That's why we don't advocate bashing little baby's heads against rocks, killing witches, or taking virgins as war brides through rape. Because we believe Jesus wouldn't be cool with that . We are all about Jesus.

    All our pastors must study some Hebrew and Aramaic. Few denominations have done more to understand and live in peace with our Jewish neighbors than the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. We are not aiming to be anti-Semitic, we just have a focus on Jesus as the divine person who speaks to us in the Scriptures through the Spirit to the Church.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  20. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    All the law and the prophets were written of me, said Jesus to the pharisee. They didnt understand and believe Jesus, because they didnt understand Moses. If we truly understand Jesus, we should be able to see Him in the law and the prophets.
     
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