Am I reading this right?

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

kimber1 said:
wrong

Yep, wrong! At least the way he meant it.

But I have to wonder if some believe they can be saved if they are separated from the Body of Christ?

I have to wonder if some believe they can KNOWINGLY (meaning they have full knowledge what they are rejecting is true) and DELIBERATELY reject truth, and still be joined to the Body of Christ . . . ?

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

God_of_Mercy said:
Why does it matter what Church I belong to as long as I believe in Jesus?

(Jam 2:19) . . . . the devils also believe, and tremble.

Do you think the devils are going to be saved?

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
I started to post that yesterday on another thread when a RC claimed that Roman Catholics never condemn anyone to hell.

The last one;

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is

absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be

subject to the Roman Pontiff.

is especially arrogant and anti-Biblical.

You know, I don't know how many times it has to be explained . . . but it seems that it has to be explained over and over and over again . ..

To be subject to someone doesn't mean that one has to be aware of it . . .

The Aborigines in Australia did not know they had to be subject to the Queen of England when Australia was part of the common wealth of Enlgand . .

Yet they were still subject to her . . . They were her subjects, whether they were aware of it or not, actively or not, formally or not . . .

If one is part of the Body of Christ, one is subject to the Roman Pontif whether they are ware of it or not, actively or not, formally or not . . .

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
Well, you don't want to belong to the Mormon church or Jehovah's Witness or other such cults who have the wrong Jesus, or any other church that preaches and teaches a different Gospel or a different Jesus.

How do you know where to draw the line?

But otherwise, it doesn't matter.

Where does it say this in the bible?

There is One Holy Catholic Church which is comprised of genuine believers in Christ Jesus, who trust His Atonement exclusively as the full payment for the debt we owe God for sin, no matter what denomination they are found in.

Where does it say in the bible that this is enough?

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
But the Roman Catholic church is NOT THE representative of Christ's Church.

Objective evidence please . . . .

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

JimfromOhio said:
Is there anywhere in the Bible (other than the Rock) that place RCC the authority of the Christian Church? I didn't find any and everything is pointing to Jesus Christ regardless of denomination. I praise God for His Holy Bible. God wanted to speak up and we are to follow The Word of God rather than Traditions of the so called "Church" of Christianity.

(Mat 16:19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus gave the keys of the Kingdom to ONE person . . . Peter . . .

The keys of the kingdom represent an OFFICE . . . a DIVINELY APPOINTED Office, for Jesus is GOD.

An OFFICE continues after the death of the one occupying it . . .

The DIVINE OFFICE Peter occupied, holding the keys of the kingdom, passed on to his successor . . . The Early Church testifies that Peter himself picked his successor, Linus.

This DIVINE OFFICE, represented by the Keys of the Kingdom, can only be ended by the one who instituted it . .. CHRIST.

He has not done so.

This DIVINE Office, signified by the Keys of the Kingdom, is held today by Pope Benedict XVI. He holds the Keys of the Kingdom . .the OFFICE given by Christ to Peter and to Peter alone of the 12.

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

tomwhodson said:
would our father who art in heaven truly cast those who believe in him into hell for eternal damnation because they are not catholic. Or would he send them to hell because they rejected christ. verily our all loving father could not do such a thing. let all whom believe in jesus christ be saved. let there be not buts and no ifs. let all whom believe in jesus christ be saved

Can someone who knows something to be true, knowingly and deliberately reject that truth and still expect to be part of the Body of Chirist, Christ who is Truth Himself?

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

JimfromOhio said:
Which translates that no one can't.

Logical fallacy according to the rules of logic which govern debates . . .

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

CaliforniaJosiah said:
Sadly, there are some Christians in the Roman Catholic Denomination that have gotten the impression that there is essentially no difference...

Tell me . . . what does it mean to be a body?

Is the body separate from the Head?

Is the Body other than the Head? Is it a different person?

Think about that for a minute . . . .

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

Isaiah 53 said:
Yes, Unam Sanctum does stand, but it applies ONLY to those who have full knowledge and knowingly reject/leave the Catholic Church. It does not apply to those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Church and reject them by default.

PAX CHRISTI

And it applies ONLY to those who were ever part of the Catholic Church to begin with . . .

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

Isaiah 53 said:
The Church is Physical and Spiritual...why does it always have to be either/or?

PAX CHRISTI

I agree.

It is a false dichotomy that those who only believe in an invisible Church hold to, even though there is no support for it in scripture.

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

JimfromOhio said:
Those are "RCC" point of view of the Church. This is what you believe. Go for it.

He presented the scripture . . . interesting that you call the scripture the "RCC" point of view . . .

Interesting . ..

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

God_of_Mercy said:
Funny you should mention this, I am actually reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church right now. If I "reject" it and remain protestant, am I damning myself?

Do you know it is true?

See, this is what everyone who wants to condemn the Catholic Church for the words of Unam Sanctun ignores . . .

One has to KNOW it is true, then DELIBERATELY REJECT it . . .

Christ is Truth Himself.

Can on DELIBERATELY and KNOWINGLY reject what they KNOW to be true and still be united to Truth Himself?

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

JimfromOhio said:
Yes.. that's what the RCC is teaching. That's outside the Bible.

I guess a non-Catholic should know better than we do what we mean by our words, right?

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

God_of_Mercy said:
Forgive me if this sounds like I'm playing a petty game but I only seek understanding. Lets say I'm a Catholic and I accept all Catholic teachings. Then I become Protestant, still believe in Christ, but don't believe in Communion of Saints or Real Presence for example. Would I still be in trouble as you say?

You enter a danger zone, and we could not tell you clearly for it depends on what is in your heart . . .

Have you KNOWINGLY and DELIBERATELY REJECTED the teachings which you know to be true?

Can you reject Truth and still be joined to Truth Himself?

Can you be saved if you are not?

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

Mea Culpa said:
How can anyone claim that though? God called me, a person who has been a part of both the Catholic and "protestant" churches.

I am saved by grace through faith, I know that because of the work that Christ did in me - He gave me peace that is beyond understanding. I know my savior and I know His Peace.

I cannot in good conscience agree with all the tenants of the Catholic Church. There are things such as the Eucharist that claims that Christ becomes bread and wine, and then we eat Him. I cannot under good conscience agree with that. Jesus said, "It is finished" on the cross, and thus in my heart of hearts, I believe what He said. I know that it is finished; it is a free gift of Christ to us.

Then you cannot say that you KNOW these beliefs are true, right?

If you have been part of the Catholic Church, this says you are putting yourself in danger, for you are rejecting things you once accepted . . if you truly don't know they are true, then the Church is not saying you are not saved.

Only God can know if you truly did know they were true and deliberately rejected them, for you don't know this yourself . . .

But if you DID know it yourself, and still DELIBERATELY REJECTED those truths knowing they are true, then you have separated yourself from the Body of Christ.

How can one remain united to the Body of Christ, which means to Christ Himself, Truth Himself, if one rejects truth DELIBERATELY AND KNOWINGLY, knowing it to be true?

Do you see?

Does this help?

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

God_of_Mercy said:
But if I leave the Church because of minor doctrinal reasons, am I really rejecting Christ? If this is the case it seems Catholics are stressing correct doctrine more than genuine belief in Christ.

You haven't cited minor doctrinal reasons.

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

God_of_Mercy said:
So you don't have to accept all Catholic doctrine to be Catholic?

Different doctrine require different levels of assent . . . You do have to accept all Catholic doctrines to be Catholic. But you do no have to assent to them all with the same level of assent.

What is this authority that the Catholic Church alone has that no other church has?

The See of Peter, the Keys of the Kingdom given by Christ to Peter and to Peter alone.

Why is union with the Catholic Church so important?

Because in the Catholic Church resides the full Deposit of Faith given to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit . . .

Because trying to be a Chrsitian is so much harder outside the Catholic Church than within, because to be outside the Catholic Church means you do not have access to the many helps through Grace God has provided for us . .

Beleive me, after being a protestant for 30 years, very strong and involved spiritually, I have seen first hand how this is true . . .

This is illustrated by something that happened to me one day on my way into the Catholic Church in prayer; I had a mental vision . . I saw myself as a young girl, all dressed in a pretty white dress, sitting on the floor next to a table with a long white linen table cloth . . I was enraptured with the food I was eating . . . it was feast of wonderous proportions.

After a little while, I looked at the wonderous food I was eating, which I thought was wonderfully huge feast (what more could I possibly desire?), and wondered, 'where did it come from?'

I became aware I was sitting next to table at one end facing the end . . . I stood up, turned around and looked . . . and I could only gaze in wonder . . .

A table that went on forever it seemed, FILLED with the most wonderful and various foods!

I instantly understood that what I had been eating and feasting on, thinking it was the feast to be found on the table of the Lord, was actually only merely the crumbs that had fallen from THIS table I now saw . . . and THIS table was the feast God has made available to us through all that He offers us in the Catholic Church.

Why would I want anything less than all God has provided?

Peace to all

thereselittleflower · Dec 4, 2005

christianmarine said:
I guess I'm screwed out of salvation and the eternal gift of Jesus, since I've never been to a Catholic Church in my life. I've repented of my sins(but not had them absolved by a Catholic Priest), and I've accepted Jesus Christ in my heart(though I did it in a Baptist, not Catholic Church). I wonder, have I been duped by the Bible and it's teachings, simply because I did not read it from a Catholic perspective? Things that make you go

Since your reasoning above is not according to Catholic teaching, has anything I posted helped you understand our position better?

Peace to all

Naomi4Christ · Dec 4, 2005

God_of_Mercy said:
From:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

So I don't have salvation?

I wouldn't lose sleep over it if I were you.

Am I reading this right?

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not a nutter

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