LDS Alright then, Mormons, let's have it out

[dzheremi]

I see it as useless because I believe all children who die before the age of accountability are saved by Christ's blood.

Plot twist: it is also the stance of traditional Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant) that the Eucharistic gifts are the true body and blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. So rather than merely affirming an intellectual stance vis-a-vis salvation (as appears to be the case in Mormonism, judging by what you have written), the young and old alike are given Christ's true life-giving body and blood, in keeping with His command that unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have no life in us (John 6:53-58). This is why we treat communion so seriously, and in Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and traditional Protestantism would not deny it to a child by denying them formal entrance into the Church via baptism.

Theirs is the kingdom of God.

Of course. Every believer, regardless of age, is given their foretaste of the Kingdom in the worship offered by the Church, together with the saints and the angels in heaven who praise with us. This is why in some popular Coptic hymns, like the introduction to the seven tunes for the Nativity, we call the Church "the house of the angels". They worship with us as one assembly, just as surely as the coming of Christ united the heavenly with the earthly.

We are all at the mercy of God, He knows our heart. There is nothing we can hide from Him.

Yes, of course.

God is LOVE and He wants us to LOVE everyone the way He does. He wants us to LOVE even the least of these His brethren.

And you best express this in your religion by denying full membership to the littlest among you? I don't see it.

We will not be judged by the church we belong to

I agree, if by that you have envisioned heaven as a kind of nightclub wherein our IDs must be checked ("It says here you're a Methodist? I'm sorry, but we only admit Lutherans"). But I believe that we will be judged by the faith we hold to, and hence it matters what a church or claimed-to-be church practices and teaches on every matter pertaining to the faith. Certainly people can be turned away despite following Him as they know how or thinking that they had been following Him. (See, e.g., Matthew 7:21-23)

the church is merely an institution of learning as is the law.

I heavily disagree with that 'merely', as you might imagine, though I agree that we are to learn from and within the Church. The question is whose Church? A Christian church (and then which form), or the Mormon religion (and then which form), or something else like Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.? A person can indeed learn a lot of things from a wide array of different places and sources, but I think it would be wrong to therefore reduce the experience of a religion (through the Church or otherwise) to mere learning. That too easily falls into a kind of smug and/or complacent gnosticism, sometimes quite explicitly (as in Mormonism), whereby because you 'know' things, you are in a better position than someone who knows little. But what does Christ our God say? That unless we humble ourselves and become as little children, we will not enter the Kingdom (Matthew 18:2-4). So I must wonder again: these are the same population to whom you deny full participation in your religion? Or are Mormon children somehow different than children of the Bible (and for the worse)?

What are we to learn? We are to learn LOVE. If we do not learn to LOVE God and one another, we are missing the whole point.

Well, I dare say that sounds like a good argument for not denying children baptism and communion, but okay. Your appeal to LOVE (as always...) is shown to be of rather limited applicability (also as always), but if that's what your religion teaches, then that's what it teaches.

In keeping with the thread topic, however, I must wonder 'aloud' how it is that this is the better version or restoration of Christianity that it claims to be, when it holds such low views of people, and treats them accordingly, and then turns around and says that it is all about 'LOVE'. This is a strange kind of love. It seems very unloving when contrasted with actual Christianity, which not only talks about love a lot, but actually practices it with all the most vulnerable and most humble.

O holy child martyr of Nehisa, St. Abanoub, pray for us! For if he would not be communed, then none of us would be.

 

[ripple the car]

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:8 - 9)

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I just gotta say, Way, that I think you would make an awesome Orthodox Christian someday. You understand a lot. Just let go of the falsehoods that Joseph Smith taught, and study the Early Church Fathers, come near to Christ, and you'd be doing well.

Yes, works matter. Obedience matters. Salvation matters. But Churches perhaps not as familar or accessible to Joseph Smith in the 1800's in upstate New York have already been teaching this for 2,000 years. And they have Saints. Ancient ones and newer ones. And a Priesthood. And a hierarchy. So check them out. God be with you on your journey, Way.

 

[Peter1000]

You are confusing God's power with the love for power that man has. We can be one with God in mind and character only. We will never be His equal Only Jesus is for He was equal with God from eternity. Again, we are not His natural children---Jesus needs no adoption, His inheritance if from being the natural son of God---we have to be adopted for we are not His natural children. Just another thing that JS and BY got wrong.

Then you do not understand to the full extent the doctrine that we are heirs of God. And to be more precise the scriptures tell us that we are joint-heirs with Christ of all that the Father has, what part of "all that the Father has" do you not understand?

If I am an heir, I will receive all that God has. If Jesus gets it, you and I get it too. If Jesus is given all power ...... then you and I are given all power..... If Jesuts thought it not robbery to be equal with God, you and I should think if not robbery to be equal with God.

Being joint heirs with Christ of all that the Father has, makes it not robbery for us to be equal with Jesus.

It is a lost doctrine that has been restored by JS, but was strongly taught by Jesus Christ in the bible. Paul is the one that taught us we are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus. Peter taught us that we can share in the divine nature of God, etc., etc., etc.

What have your leaders taught you from the bible on this subject?

 

[He is the way]

Plot twist: it is also the stance of traditional Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant) that the Eucharistic gifts are the true body and blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. So rather than merely affirming an intellectual stance vis-a-vis salvation (as appears to be the case in Mormonism, judging by what you have written), the young and old alike are given Christ's true life-giving body and blood, in keeping with His command that unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have no life in us (John 6:53-58). This is why we treat communion so seriously, and in Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and traditional Protestantism would not deny it to a child by denying them formal entrance into the Church via baptism.

Children under the age of accountability are not dented the kingdom of God. No entrance into the church is necessary.

Of course. Every believer, regardless of age, is given their foretaste of the Kingdom in the worship offered by the Church, together with the saints and the angels in heaven who praise with us. This is why in some popular Coptic hymns, like the introduction to the seven tunes for the Nativity, we call the Church "the house of the angels". They worship with us as one assembly, just as surely as the coming of Christ united the heavenly with the earthly.

We do not deny children under the age of accountability to go to church or to learn about Jesus Christ. They are taught to keep the commandments.

Yes, of course.



And you best express this in your religion by denying full membership to the littlest among you? I don't see it.

Full membership is unnecessary.

I agree, if by that you have envisioned heaven as a kind of nightclub wherein our IDs must be checked ("It says here you're a Methodist? I'm sorry, but we only admit Lutherans"). But I believe that we will be judged by the faith we hold to, and hence it matters what a church or claimed-to-be church practices and teaches on every matter pertaining to the faith. Certainly people can be turned away despite following Him as they know how or thinking that they had been following Him. (See, e.g., Matthew 7:21-23)

I know we will be judged by our faith in Jesus Christ, our works, and our heart.

I heavily disagree with that 'merely', as you might imagine, though I agree that we are to learn from and within the Church. The question is whose Church? A Christian church (and then which form), or the Mormon religion (and then which form), or something else like Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.? A person can indeed learn a lot of things from a wide array of different places and sources, but I think it would be wrong to therefore reduce the experience of a religion (through the Church or otherwise) to mere learning. That too easily falls into a kind of smug and/or complacent gnosticism, sometimes quite explicitly (as in Mormonism), whereby because you 'know' things, you are in a better position than someone who knows little. But what does Christ our God say? That unless we humble ourselves and become as little children, we will not enter the Kingdom (Matthew 18:2-4). So I must wonder again: these are the same population to whom you deny full participation in your religion? Or are Mormon children somehow different than children of the Bible (and for the worse)?

Children of members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints that have not yet been baptized are still members of record. They attend church and learn the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Well, I dare say that sounds like a good argument for not denying children baptism and communion, but okay. Your appeal to LOVE (as always...) is shown to be of rather limited applicability (also as always), but if that's what your religion teaches, then that's what it teaches.

In keeping with the thread topic, however, I must wonder 'aloud' how it is that this is the better version or restoration of Christianity that it claims to be, when it holds such low views of people, and treats them accordingly, and then turns around and says that it is all about 'LOVE'. This is a strange kind of love. It seems very unloving when contrasted with actual Christianity, which not only talks about love a lot, but actually practices it with all the most vulnerable and most humble.

We do teach and practice LOVE.

O holy child martyr of Nehisa, St. Abanoub, pray for us! For if he would not be communed, then none of us would be.

 

[mmksparbud]

Then you do not understand to the full extent the doctrine that we are heirs of God. And to be more precise the scriptures tell us that we are joint-heirs with Christ of all that the Father has, what part of "all that the Father has" do you not understand?

If I am an heir, I will receive all that God has. If Jesus gets it, you and I get it too. If Jesus is given all power ...... then you and I are given all power..... If Jesuts thought it not robbery to be equal with God, you and I should think if not robbery to be equal with God.

Being joint heirs with Christ of all that the Father has, makes it not robbery for us to be equal with Jesus.

It is a lost doctrine that has been restored by JS, but was strongly taught by Jesus Christ in the bible. Paul is the one that taught us we are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus. Peter taught us that we can share in the divine nature of God, etc., etc., etc.

What have your leaders taught you from the bible on this subject?

You will of course believe it is us who do not understand, it is us who think you do not fully understand what our relationship with the Father is. Again, if you have a natural child, and then you adopt a child, the adopted becomes your heir, gets everything you have along with your natural child. Now, no matter what, the adopted child does not share your very DNA, He can never be fully and completely as you are, the natural child is fully yours, shares your DNA. We are not the natural children of Glod and some heavenly mother---that is a big fat made up lie. We do not share His divinity as His One and Only natural Son does. We share in everything the Father gives His Son, He has never given and never will give us divinity for that is not something that can be given to anyone---you are either Divine or not, it is you essence and we have none of it. Mormons strip God of His powers in everything else, but you insist on giving Him the one thing He will not do. So the question obviously is---why? Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that your founder was power hungry and as his mentor wanted to be God, and still does, JS and BY did also. It appeals to the lust for power -- the desire to be worshipped.
This was never taught by Jesus. He lifted up the meek and humble, not those that arrogantly want power and worship. We are made to worship--not be worship.
The leaders of my church believe the same thing that I believe. If they believed what you teach, I would leave this church for it is not in the bible and is the opposite of everything Jesus teaches. The first shall be last and the last first. Arrogance and lust for power and the desire to be worshipped as God belongs to Satan. That was his last temptation for Christ---he would give to Jesus a world that is His anyway, if Jesus would worship him. JS and |BY, in order to get this worship, just makes everyone a God and they can even be a God of their own planet---and be worshipped---This makes it more palatable if everyone gets to be God and doesn't look quite so arrogant when it really is you that wants it.

 

[dzheremi]

Children under the age of accountability are not dented the kingdom of God. No entrance into the church is necessary.

If no entrance into the Church is necessary, then why baptize anyone? Either everyone needs to be Mormon, or they don't. Especially why baptize dead people, like your religion does? You don't know anything of their sins, or that they even sinned at all.

We do not deny children under the age of accountability to go to church or to learn about Jesus Christ. They are taught to keep the commandments.

That's all your religion is -- the teaching that they/we keep the commandments? Huh. Makes me wonder why the missionaries ever say more than that to people, especially when combined with your previous idea that entrance into the church is not necessary.

Full membership is unnecessary.

I'll be sure to remind the Mormon missionaries of this next time I see any. I'm sure they'll be relieved to know that they can stop now.

I know we will be judged by our faith in Jesus Christ, our works, and our heart.

Okay.

Children of members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints that have not yet been baptized are still members of record. They attend church and learn the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are they communed? If so, on what basis? In fact, if they are not yet at the 'age of reason', what is the use of teaching them anything? How is it that they're too immature/not yet 'reasonable' enough to understand the meaning of baptism, yet you can trust that they'll understand the gospel? That makes no sense. Is the gospel easier to understand than the ritual of baptism? If so, why do you have so many teaching manuals aimed at the instruction of children containing copious teachings on the principles of your religion?

We do teach and practice LOVE.

I don't think it's very loving to deny children full membership in your religion while also teaching that being Mormon is so crucial to a person's salvation that you baptize dead people into it. Why do you care more for the spiritual welfare of dead people who you cannot possibly know than for your own living children? That's insanity.

 

[He is the way]

If no entrance into the Church is necessary, then why baptize anyone? Either everyone needs to be Mormon, or they don't. Especially why baptize dead people, like your religion does? You don't know anything of their sins, or that they even sinned at all.

Everyone needs to belong to Christ's church, just not while here on earth, and they will all get that choice.
Everyone past the age of accountability is responsible for their sins and must be baptized for the remission of those sins.

That's all your religion is -- the teaching that they/we keep the commandments? Huh. Makes me wonder why the missionaries ever say more than that to people, especially when combined with your previous idea that entrance into the church is not necessary.
I'll be sure to remind the Mormon missionaries of this next time I see any. I'm sure they'll be relieved to know that they can stop now.

It is very important to teach keeping the commandments:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:19)

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Are they communed? If so, on what basis? In fact, if they are not yet at the 'age of reason', what is the use of teaching them anything? How is it that they're too immature/not yet 'reasonable' enough to understand the meaning of baptism, yet you can trust that they'll understand the gospel? That makes no sense. Is the gospel easier to understand than the ritual of baptism? If so, why do you have so many teaching manuals aimed at the instruction of children containing copious teachings on the principles of your religion?

We are commanded to teach our children:
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:5 - 7)

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 22:13)

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

I don't think it's very loving to deny children full membership in your religion while also teaching that being Mormon is so crucial to a person's salvation that you baptize dead people into it. Why do you care more for the spiritual welfare of dead people who you cannot possibly know than for your own living children? That's insanity.

We do not care more for the dead, we care equally for everyone. Children who died before the age of accountability are not baptized for the dead, it is not necessary for them to be baptized.

 

[CaspianSails]

We are not saved by works and neither are we saved without them:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:31 - 46)

31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

A life as a Christian that does not produce works is not one that is pleasing to God. I don't think we disagree there. But the works do not save you nor are they your own. They are the works of the savior and the Holy Spirit which lives in you and directs your actions when you yield to Him. In ourselves we cannot do righteous works. We should be doing the works of Christ through the power and direction of the Holy Spirit. Those who do works for works sake do nothing of lasting value. A Christian with Christ properly in control cannot help but do good works. The works still do not provide salvation, only Christ's atonement provides salvation.

 

[He is the way]

A life as a Christian that does not produce works is not one that is pleasing to God. I don't think we disagree there. But the works do not save you nor are they your own. They are the works of the savior and the Holy Spirit which lives in you and directs your actions when you yield to Him. In ourselves we cannot do righteous works. We should be doing the works of Christ through the power and direction of the Holy Spirit. Those who do works for works sake do nothing of lasting value. A Christian with Christ properly in control cannot help but do good works. The works still do not provide salvation, only Christ's atonement provides salvation.

That is what I said, we are not saved by works, neither are we saved without them.

 

[CaspianSails]

That is what I said, we are not saved by works, neither are we saved without them.

What you are saying is works are required for salvation. What I am saying is that salvation is an act of God alone as He is revealed by Himself to you. I can do nothing that causes me to receive this as it is an act of God not man. Genuine faith is followed by works, they are the result of faith and yet they do not provide any salvation for anyone. They are not even our own works but are the works of the Father through us. He brings about the circumstance where we are able to do His work. Our part is to be obedient and use what we have been given to do His work as He directs and provides.

 

[Rescued One]

That is what I said, we are not saved by works, neither are we saved without them.

You teach that Jesus can't pay for our sins unless we keep all the commandments.

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Enrichment G, p. 395

Article of Faith 3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [Mormon]Gospel.
Article of Faith 3

 

[He is the way]

What you are saying is works are required for salvation. What I am saying is that salvation is an act of God alone as He is revealed by Himself to you. I can do nothing that causes me to receive this as it is an act of God not man. Genuine faith is followed by works, they are the result of faith and yet they do not provide any salvation for anyone. They are not even our own works but are the works of the Father through us. He brings about the circumstance where we are able to do His work. Our part is to be obedient and use what we have been given to do His work as He directs and provides.

I agree, God's word leads to obedience.

 

[He is the way]

You teach that Jesus can't pay for our sins unless we keep all the commandments.

View attachment 277872
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Enrichment G, p. 395

Article of Faith 3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [Mormon]Gospel.
Article of Faith 3

There is nothing wrong with being obedient to God's commandments.

(New Testament | 1 John 5:1 - 5)

1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[mmksparbud]

There is nothing wrong with being obedient to God's commandments.

(New Testament | 1 John 5:1 - 5)

1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

No, there isn't. But they will not save you.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are not evil people, they are followers of God, doing good works for God---but their hearts are not really with Him. God knows the heart. It is lip service only---it will not get you anywhere.

 

[He is the way]

No, there isn't. But they will not save you.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are not evil people, they are followers of God, doing good works for God---but their hearts are not really with Him. God knows the heart. It is lip service only---it will not get you anywhere.

Jesus said that obedience to the commands WILL save:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[mmksparbud]

Jesus said that obedience to the commands WILL save:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Yes---with all your heart and all your mind, soul, strength and your neighbor as yourself---0so just doing them means nothing unless yo0u actually have them in your heart and God knows the heart and that is why He can say to another young man, asking the same thing---give everything away---but the man could not do it---but he had kept all the commandments from his youth. Jesus said to sell everything---he needed more than to keep the commandments.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

 

[He is the way]

Yes---with all your heart and all your mind, soul, strength and your neighbor as yourself---0so just doing them means nothing unless yo0u actually have them in your heart and God knows the heart and that is why He can say to another young man, asking the same thing---give everything away---but the man could not do it---but he had kept all the commandments from his youth. Jesus said to sell everything---he needed more than to keep the commandments.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Please not what Jesus said:

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Jesus had already told the the young man that he would have life eternal, now He was asking him to be perfect so he could have treasure in heaven.

 

[mmksparbud]

Please not what Jesus said:

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Jesus had already told the the young man that he would have life eternal, now He was asking him to be perfect so he could have treasure in heaven.

Right---because keeping the commandments did not make him perfect. His heart was on his possessions, not `on love for God.

 

[He is the way]

Right---because keeping the commandments did not make him perfect. His heart was on his possessions, not `on love for God.

Keeping the commandments did not make him perfect but it did give him life eternal.

 

[CaspianSails]

I agree, God's word leads to obedience.

You say you agree but you don't based on previous posts. Lets just lay the cards on the table as the saying goes. You cherry pick part of my reply and ignore the rest. If not then answer this question, fully define your meaning of obedience. I will reiterate there is nothing any of us can do to secure Christs -, who is God, righteousness, nothing. Works will not gain you anything as all true works of a believer are attributed to Christ and the Holy Spirit not our selves. Look forward to your answer and response.