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Allah
- Thread starter angelmom01
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I'm pretty sure that is the first time I've ever heard of an evil spirit as being referred to as a "jerk". 
S Walch
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Again, where have I EVER stated that when Arab Christians or Jews say "Allah" that they're refering to the same pagan god as Muslims do?
This again is the same slander that MTB put towards me, which he didn't apologise for.
Allah is a personal name in arabic.
ilah is the word that means "god".
Personal names and words are not the same thing.
My personal name is Stephen. A title put towards constantly is "swalchy". Does that turn "swalchy" into a personal name?
No it doesn't. It's a mere word/title, like the word/title God/theos/dios/ilah.
Allah, Zeus, Stephen, Jupiter, Ishtar, Robert, Moses, etc etc etc are personal names.
As stated, culture certainly has input on what words/names you use to refer to things - such as culture has defined that when Arab speaking Christians say "Allah" they are talking to the same God as the rest of the Christian world - But that doesn't negate the point that Allah is the personal name of a pagan god, and that Ilah is the Arabic word for "god".
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*bangs his head against the keyboard* I wouldn't slander you, I have better things to do. No offence. You aren't getting an apology, in fact, I think you owe others one.
ilah means "deity", a god. A pagan god. Zeus is an ilah (what's the indefinite article in Arabic?)
Allah means "the God", referring to a specific God. It is seen as a name in Islam. Not for the others.
God bless you.
ilah means "deity", a god. A pagan god. Zeus is an ilah (what's the indefinite article in Arabic?)
Allah means "the God", referring to a specific God. It is seen as a name in Islam. Not for the others.
God bless you.
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S Walch
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Seeing as though I haven't slandered/abused/flamed, or said anything bad to anyone in this thread, I'm going to have to see your reasoning for why I owe ... someone around here an apology.
Then that's the exact same meaning as the English word "god/God" ! Which is what I've been stating all along.
Sorry, but "Robert" in English is still seen as a personal name in the rest of the langauges of the world, and Allah is a personal name in the rest of the langauges of the world as well - It's why we've transliterated it 99% of the time.
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After just speaking with a friend of mine, who is fluent in Arabic, and is not religious, and is not from a family of religious people, he has told me this: اللـــــــه اللـه الله
These are all versions of the same word, Allah, and he said, I quote, "depends on the calligrapher's style choice." He has said that that Arab Jews and Christians consider it to be a word, not a name.
God bless you.
These are all versions of the same word, Allah, and he said, I quote, "depends on the calligrapher's style choice." He has said that that Arab Jews and Christians consider it to be a word, not a name.
God bless you.
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I, for one, have found you insulting and flame-y.
Then.. what are you telling me I'm wrong for?
Because in Islam it is seen as a personal name by them, but not the Arab Jews or Arab Christians.
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S Walch
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All those three "different" ways of writing Allah still only contain the same four consonants - Alif-Lam-Lam-ha (read right to left) - Allah. I'm not really sure why you did that, but that's interesting non-the-less
So, if many people considered my name to be "swalchy" and that "Stephen" was a word/title meaning "crown", that would therefore change swalchy from a word/title to a name and Stephen from a personal name to a word/title?
We can "consider" things all we want - But that doesn't negate that personal names are personal names - Such as Zeus, Stephen and Allah as examples.
Also, if we were to go back in time to Arabia, we would see that Allah was used as a personal name long before Islam or Christianity came along.
You'll have to point out where. Because I'm having a hard time seeing where I insulted anyone.
I never said you were wrong concerning ilah - it's concerning Allah where we have our differencies
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You don't have to tell me.
I've been closer to Islam than I want to have been, but we will not get into that.From a linguistical point of view, yes. If you didn't correct someone, then they are perfectly within their rights to refer to you as swalchy. As I've said, Allah is cognate to Aramaic Alaha, or two words from Arabic: al (the) ilah (deity).
It also doesn't negate that titles are titles.
Sure, are three enough?
I never said you were wrong concerning ilah - it's concerning Allah where we have our differencies
I see.
So, you'll have to just agree to disagree with me, because I'm not backing down.
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S Walch
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You don't have to tell me.
Fair enough. Islam isn't as nice as it says it is
But does that turn swalchy into a personal name though? Or does it remain as a title that I allow for myself?
But doesn't that just mean that Allah is still a personal name, yet that is the meaning of the name "Allah" ?
My personal name, Stephen, means "crown", but that doesn't destroy the point that Stephen is a personal name, and not just a mere word/title.
True - We're just disagreeing on whether Allah is a personal name or just merely a title
I'l apologise to you for saying that so abruptly
That's not insulting or a flame - that is pointing out the slander that MTB put towards me in order to make people assume that I was saying that Arab Christians worshp a pagan God, which i never stated nor implied, anywhere.
That happens to be the same reasoning I use whenever I post in a thread
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It depends. Will start paying tribute to "the Swalchy?" or anything? Then it's a nickname. When someone becomes Swalchy Bloggs, then it's a name. It's more complex than this, but it's way too in depth and long-winded, it's also a bit too advanced for me, and off-topic.
If al ilah makes it into Allah, then is it a name?
Thomas was a title to begin with, it was a way of distinguishing Thomas from Judas Iscariot, because they both had the same name.
Now, it is considered a name, correct?I consider it both.True - We're just disagreeing on whether Allah is a personal name or just merely a title
Name for Muslims' deity, title for non-Muslims deity.
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S Walch
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If it's a personal name, then yes, it is.
Lets take a name from the Scriptures as an example: Timothy.
Timothy in Greek is a contraction of the Greek Time (timh) meaning, to honour, and the Greek theos (Qeos) for God, and therefore Timotheos/Timothy, is a personal name that means "honouring God".
Whilst it's a contraction of two different words, it is still a personal name - just like Allah is a personal name
Thomas was a title to begin with, it was a way of distinguishing Thomas from Judas Iscariot, because they both had the same name.
It is used as a personal name in Scripture, 100% of the time. Also, there's two Judas' mentioned in Lukes account of the 12 disciples (Luke 6:15) - Judas the brother of James and Judas Iscariot.
And, it is also only in Syrian tradition that Thomas' first name was Judas (or Jude).
Also, the Apostle John, in John 11:16, says "Thomas, also called Didymus (the twin)". So, from what I can see, Thomas has never been a "title".
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So is Elijah. That's not even remotely what I was discussing. You're starting to sound trollish. I'm getting sick of telling you this now, so please read, and take in: Allah is a name (Muslims) and a title (Non-Muslim Arabic speakers). If you keep saying otherwise, then you are insulting a whole group of people. Why do you think you're so right? You're not, but I don't want to argue with you or debate. I'm just presenting the facts.
Oh my.. you really have no clue, do you? Thomas is a word meaning "twin". It's Thomas in Aramaic, Didymus in Greek. His name was Judas, but they called him "the twin". Same as "Peter" is from "Petra", "rock"- his name was Simon, not Peter. They were nicknames, titles if you prefer.
What? Are you saying the Bible is wrong? I really don't understand what you're saying here, sorry.
You really don't see very far then.
He was called Thomas to distinguish him from Judas Iscariot.
Unfortunately I can't find other sources for this right now, but I don't really need to prove myself, really, do I?
God bless you,
IO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle
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Question:
were Arab speaking Christians who lived in the centuries before Mohammed's "revelation" using the word "Allah" for the Christian God?
Mary
were Arab speaking Christians who lived in the centuries before Mohammed's "revelation" using the word "Allah" for the Christian God?
Mary
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S Walch
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Right, the 11 Times "Thomas" appears in Scripture:
- Matthew 10:3
Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; - Mark 3:18
Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot - Luke 6:15
Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, - John 11:16
Then Thomas (called Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him." - John 14:5
Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" - John 20:24
Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. - John 20:26
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" - John 20:27
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." - John 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" - John 21:2
Simon Peter, Thomas (called Didymus), Nathanael from Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples were together. - Acts 1:13
When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.
He was called Thomas to distinguish him from Judas Iscariot.
Unfortunately I can't find other sources for this right now, but I don't really need to prove myself, really, do I?
God bless you,
IO
Scripture does not state that, anywhere - So yes, you do have to provide additional sources.
Greek transliteration: Qwmas used this way in these passages: Matthew 10:3, John 11:16, John 14:5, John 20:24, John 20:26, John 20:28, John 21:2, Acts 1:13.
Used as a personal name. The Greek does not call him "Didymus", but the Apostle John, in 3 verses, explains that Thomas was called didymus, "The Twin".
And that is the meaning of the personal name, Thomas.
And, as the Wikipedia article "Thomas the Apostle" will tell you, and I quote:
"Syrian tradition also states that the apostle's full name was Judas Thomas" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle
I'm willing to bet that you're getting Thomas and Thaddeus mixed up.
So yes, actually - I have a clue.
It's you that has gotten mixed up.
John 14:22
Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
Strongs #2455:
Judah or Judas = "he shall be praised"
- the fourth son of Jacob
- an unknown ancestor of Christ
- a man surnamed the Galilean, who at the time of the census of Quirinus, excited the revolt in Galilee, Acts 5:
- a certain Jew of Damascus, Acts 9:
- a prophet surnamed Barsabas, of the church at Jerusalem, Acts 15:22,27,
- the apostle, Jn 14:22, who was surnamed Lebbaeus or Thaddaeus, and according to opinion wrote the Epistle of Jude.
- the half-brother of Jesus, Mt. 13:
- Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus
If you're going to accuse people of "not having a clue" - make sure you have one yourself.
As far as I know, no one has any proof what Arab Christians were refering to God as before the Advent of Islam.
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Allah pre-dates islam anyway, as Allah was the name of a meccan rock god. Basically Allah is not a product of islam but was "adopted" by Mo.
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GAH! My computer froze and I lost the big reply. So I'm going to post something short. I'm not trawling through all those sources again. Now my internet is disconnecting me like crazy.
S Walch. I'm sick now of discussing this with you, and you're too rude and come across as ignorant, a 20 year old trying to look intelligent by quoting strong's and posting things in Greek.
You cite Strong's and act like you're now an expert on the Bible and on names. I've already explained that Thomas was used to distinguish between him and Judas. Let me explain something: there were many people named Jesus, Judas, or Mary - except in their Aramaic and Hebrew equivalents. It has been suggested that up to 25% of Biblical Jerusalem's females were, at the time, named Mary or a diminutive of that.
No, I have not mixed them up.
As I've said, Peter was not intended as a name, yet it is used as one. You said nothing to that. It is a word meaning "rock" in Greek, Thomas is from a word meaning "twin" in Aramaic.
It was used as a nickname, a way of identifying between the other other two Judas. Simple as that. I'm not here to argue, although apparently you're not willing to let other people have their say. I'm willing to go with you half way and say it could be "Judas Thomas" (Judas the twin) though.
http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Thomas
http://www.zelo.com/firstnames/samples/platinumsample.html
I could provide more, but I'm getting tired of talking to you. Do not reply on here, as you are purposefully derailing the thread. If you want to discuss this further, PM me on here or elsewhere.
If you don't like it, tough, but you're not going to prove me wrong. I still stand by my statements that:
* Allah is a personal name and a title
* Thomas was only a title/nickname but is now a name
* Peter was only a nickname but is now a name
I have more than a clue, but if I'm wrong I'm willing to admit it, I'm just not wrong here. You can't accept my opinion, that is your problem.
Take it to private messages.
Forgive me. God bless you.
IO
S Walch. I'm sick now of discussing this with you, and you're too rude and come across as ignorant, a 20 year old trying to look intelligent by quoting strong's and posting things in Greek.
You cite Strong's and act like you're now an expert on the Bible and on names. I've already explained that Thomas was used to distinguish between him and Judas. Let me explain something: there were many people named Jesus, Judas, or Mary - except in their Aramaic and Hebrew equivalents. It has been suggested that up to 25% of Biblical Jerusalem's females were, at the time, named Mary or a diminutive of that.
No, I have not mixed them up.
As I've said, Peter was not intended as a name, yet it is used as one. You said nothing to that. It is a word meaning "rock" in Greek, Thomas is from a word meaning "twin" in Aramaic.
It was used as a nickname, a way of identifying between the other other two Judas. Simple as that. I'm not here to argue, although apparently you're not willing to let other people have their say. I'm willing to go with you half way and say it could be "Judas Thomas" (Judas the twin) though.
http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Thomas
http://www.zelo.com/firstnames/samples/platinumsample.html
I could provide more, but I'm getting tired of talking to you. Do not reply on here, as you are purposefully derailing the thread. If you want to discuss this further, PM me on here or elsewhere.
If you don't like it, tough, but you're not going to prove me wrong. I still stand by my statements that:
* Allah is a personal name and a title
* Thomas was only a title/nickname but is now a name
* Peter was only a nickname but is now a name
I have more than a clue, but if I'm wrong I'm willing to admit it, I'm just not wrong here. You can't accept my opinion, that is your problem.
Take it to private messages.
Forgive me. God bless you.
IO
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As an on looker - reading the thread, and no offence ment, you do seem to come across as more ignorant and arrogant than SW. I'm not trying to pick bones here, but just wanted to say what I see as someone outside the discussion.
A lot of your comments are based around your superior knowledge, entering the thread declaring everyone wrong, and saying, "you're not going to prove me wrong" amongst many others sayings.
Last time I checked most people did not hold the full knowledge of any subject, and anyone considering themselves to be a closed mind to something is just arrogance & ignorance.
Im very sorry, but that is what I see. As I said no offence meant its just the way you seem to display yourself.
Maybe I have misread you.
- Rob
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You might ask the Muslims over on this thread about Islam and the Immaculate Conception.
They are not allowed to post on this board I think, as I asked them to come over here and give their view on ALLAH. Peacehttp://www.christianforums.com/t5151662&page=2
Islam and the Immaculate Conception
The Quran does say that Allah chose her above all women and "made her pure", and it seems to me that "made her pure" is a perfect discription of the Immaculate Conception.
Quran 3:42 And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.
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S Walch
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lol, that's one of the most used cop-outs I come across.
Obviously, becuase I'm 20, I'm a complete retard when it comes to someone older than me, is that what you're saying?
Thanks. It's nice to know what the older generation think of the younger one - dismiss what they say because they're not as old as you.
Haven't you been doing the exact same thing? Acting like you're an expert on the bible, and then quoting Wikipedia (of all places).
And you claimed that this could be found in Scripture:
So, where does the Bible say that Thomas was a name used instead of Judas?
There is 11 instances where "Thomas" is used, and not a single one of those places in Scripture state that they called Him Thomas to distinguish him from the other two "Judas' "
Yes you have. The 11 places where Thomas is mentioned say nothing about him being called Judas. There are instancies, thanks to the Gospel of Luke and John, and Luke's Acts, where it is discovered that Thaddaeus is the one that was also called Judas "the son of James" - Luke 6:16, Acts 1:13, John 14:22
The Catholic Encyclopdeia also proves that "Judas Thomas" is a Syrican tradition, and mentions nothing of Scripture stating that Thomas was a name given to him to distinguish him from the other two Judas'
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14658b.htm
"The principal document concerning him is the "Acta Thomae", preserved to us with some variations both in Greek and in Syriac, and bearing unmistakeable signs of its Gnostic origin. It may indeed be the work of Bardesanes himself .... that the relics of Apostle Thomas, which we know to have been venerated at Edessa, had really come from the East. The extravagance of the legend may be judged from the fact that in more than one place (cap. 31, p. 148) it represents Thomas (Judas Thomas, as he is called here and elsewhere in Syriac tradition) as the twin brother of Jesus."
In fact, the most that the CE actulaly mentions regarding Thomas derived from the bible is:
"Little is recorded of St. Thomas the Apostle, nevertheless thanks to the fourth Gospel his personality is clearer to us than that of some others of the Twelve. His name occurs in all the lists of the Synoptists (Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6, cf. Acts 1:13), but in St. John he plays a distinctive part. First, when Jesus announced His intention of returning to Judea to visit Lazarus, "Thomas" who is called Didymus [the twin], said to his fellow disciples: "Let us also go, that we may die with him" (John 11:16). Again it was St. Thomas who during the discourse before the Last Supper raised an objection: "Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?" (John 14:5). But more especially St. Thomas is remembered for his incredulity when the other Apostles announced Christ's Resurrection to him: "Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe" (John 20:25); but eight days later he made his act of faith, drawing down the rebuke of Jesus: "Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed" (John 20:29)."
And not once is the statment "and it is found in Scripture that Thomas was originally called Judas".
Still doesn't negate that Petros and Thomas are personal names. Just like my name is derived from the Greek stephanos meaning crown. Doesn't change the fact that Stephen is a personal name.
When someone claims that Scripture has said something, and then don't actually show me where, then no, I wont just take their word for it.
You have shown no Scriptural proof that Thomas' original name was Judas - And the only thing you have in your "favour" is Syric tradition, but you never stated anything concerning that.
I accept "opinions" when opinions are backed up by evidence - which you have provided none for at all.
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