Allah

[desmalia]

I can't believe how nasty this thread has become over such a minor issue of semantics. As long as we can all agree that the Islamic god is not the One true God, does the rest of this debate really matter so much? Or can we just agree to disagree?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I can't believe how nasty this thread has become over such a minor issue of semantics. As long as we can all agree that the Islamic god is not the One true God, does the rest of this debate really matter so much? Or can we just agree to disagree?

Well, if you can't stand the heat, don't come into the kitchen.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm

GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie! ​

 

[Polycarp1]

Let me try something here: I'm going to make a series of assertions, non-argumentative in nature, and some or all of you tell me, or the thread generally, where I am wrong.

1. ilah is the Arabic word for god. Note the lowercase. If we were having a peaceful conversation with a Muslim about Zeus or Thor, we would agree that each is an example of a false ilah. Of course, it also means god when speaking of the real god.

2. Allah means God, and is most likely a contraction of Al- (the) plus ilah, in the same sense as we can talk about Lord North or Lord Salisbury in British history but The Lord means God Almighty.

3. Islam uses Allah as the name and/or title for the God whom Mohammed taught about and whom they proclaim.

4. Arabic Christians use Allah where we would use "God" as the proper title for the Holy Trinity.

5. There are allegations, which I personally have never seen substantiated anywhere but anti-Islam hate sites, that Allah was used as the name or title of a moon god before Mohammed when the Arabs were polytheistic. I'm not saying whether that's right or wrong, just that I've never seen it borne out on a site with documentation I feel I can trust.

6. Mohammed believed himself called to proclaim the God of Abraham as the one true God, in place of the pre-Islamic Arabic pantheon. He used Allah, "the God," as the name or title of the God of Abraham.

7. His conception of who God is, is entirely at odds with the Christian conception, and in large measure with the Jewish conception too. And obvously it does not include God as the Holy Trinity, among many other errors.

8. Nonetheless, because he was pointing to the God in whom we believe, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, of Moses, of the Prophets, the one of whom our Lord Jesus Christ spoke and whom the Apostles proclaimed, we would be in error to call Allah a false god. A very erroneous understanding of God, definitely. But Mohammed was pointing to the right God, but saying completely false things about Him.

Does any part of that, spelled out in sequence, seem in error to anyone?

 

[Jipsah]

Does any part of that, spelled out in sequence, seem in error to anyone?

Looks good to me. But hey, let's not let the truth stand in the way of strongly held, weakly formed opinions.

 

[InnocentOdion]

I can't believe how nasty this thread has become over such a minor issue of semantics. As long as we can all agree that the Islamic god is not the One true God, does the rest of this debate really matter so much? Or can we just agree to disagree?

I agree. Over semantics, of all things. Honestly, does anyone else care? I just don't want to hear, from anyone, that Arab Christians or Jews worship a false god because of what they use to refer to God in their language, Islamic influence or not. If that makes me a bad person, or wrong, then so be it. God will judge me.

Does any part of that, spelled out in sequence, seem in error to anyone?

Sounds fine to me. That's my stance on it, what I've been trying to get across from the very start.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Let me try something here: I'm going to make a series of assertions, non-argumentative in nature, and some or all of you tell me, or the thread generally, where I am wrong.

1. ilah is the Arabic word for god. Note the lowercase. If we were having a peaceful conversation with a Muslim about Zeus or Thor, we would agree that each is an example of a false ilah. Of course, it also means god when speaking of the real god.

2. Allah means God, and is most likely a contraction of Al- (the) plus ilah, in the same sense as we can talk about Lord North or Lord Salisbury in British history but The Lord means God Almighty.

3. Islam uses Allah as the name and/or title for the God whom Mohammed taught about and whom they proclaim.

4. Arabic Christians use Allah where we would use "God" as the proper title for the Holy Trinity.

5. There are allegations, which I personally have never seen substantiated anywhere but anti-Islam hate sites, that Allah was used as the name or title of a moon god before Mohammed when the Arabs were polytheistic. I'm not saying whether that's right or wrong, just that I've never seen it borne out on a site with documentation I feel I can trust.

6. Mohammed believed himself called to proclaim the God of Abraham as the one true God, in place of the pre-Islamic Arabic pantheon. He used Allah, "the God," as the name or title of the God of Abraham.

7. His conception of who God is, is entirely at odds with the Christian conception, and in large measure with the Jewish conception too. And obvously it does not include God as the Holy Trinity, among many other errors.

8. Nonetheless, because he was pointing to the God in whom we believe, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, of Moses, of the Prophets, the one of whom our Lord Jesus Christ spoke and whom the Apostles proclaimed, we would be in error to call Allah a false god. A very erroneous understanding of God, definitely. But Mohammed was pointing to the right God, but saying completely false things about Him.

Does any part of that, spelled out in sequence, seem in error to anyone?

Thanks for this very clear post! I think that's what most of us were trying to say, but not nearly so well as you have.

Mary

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

7. His conception of who God is, is entirely at odds with the Christian conception, and in large measure with the Jewish conception too. And obvously it does not include God as the Holy Trinity, among many other errors.

That is true. I was watching an interesting discussion with the Baha'is in which the Muslims lambast their Divine Prophet.
Islam believes Muhammad is the last great Prophet to the world, and though we CHRIST-ians know that is "hogwash" that hasn't stopped Islam from multiplying. Heck, they even believe in the return of Jesus to fight the "anti-christ" LOL.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5085453-is-the-prophet-of-the-bahai-faith-really-a-prophet.html

Originally Posted by anatolian

and I wanna ask another question, Hazrat Muhammed said there are ten major signs for the Apocalyps and the returning of Isa son of Maryam is one them,what about the other 9 signs?

1.Dejjal(known as the anti-Christ)
2.the cloud
3.the animal of the earth
4.the rising of the sun from the west
5,6,7.the falling of three lands,one in arabia one in the west one in the east
8.the rising of Gog and Magog
9.the rising of a fire from Yemen

 

[INRI2]

"Nonetheless, because he was pointing to the God in whom we believe, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, of Moses, of the Prophets, the one of whom our Lord Jesus Christ spoke and whom the Apostles proclaimed, we would be in error to call Allah a false god. A very erroneous understanding of God

exaclt just as I have said before an erronious understanding of the one true god, the same God of the Jews and christians. Infact using tradition you can clearly see Gods interaction with the arab people in the bible making them into a nation who are against their brothers "Jew & Christian" why did god choose to do this.. I dont know but it is right there in the bilbe, we just gotta accept it as part of a larger plan.

 

[desmalia]

I think that if we are going to say the Muslims worship the same God as we do, then we'll have to say the same for the Mormons and JW's. Although each of these religions initially stemmed from some degree of truth, they are so far off the mark that their followers are worshiping a false spirt, not the same God at all.

 

[Jipsah]

I think that if we are going to say the Muslims worship the same God as we do, then we'll have to say the same for the Mormons and JW's.

Sorta like we do with the Jews, whose concept of God is far closer to that of the Muslims than it is to the Trinitarian concept held by Christians.

 

[desmalia]

Sorta like we do with the Jews, whose concept of God is far closer to that of the Muslims than it is to the Trinitarian concept held by Christians.

Perhaps for those who have perverted Judiasm... But unlike Islam and Mormonism, etc. Judiasm was established by God. For a Jew to come to Christ does not mean that he must turn from Judiasm (other than perhaps rejecting any man-made, anti-biblical doctrines that may have been added). That cannot be said of any other religion. There is no such thing as becomming a "complete Muslim" by recognizing Christ as Messiah.

(Oh, I just know LLOG has something to say here...)

 

[Jipsah]

Perhaps for those who have perverted Judiasm.

To my knowledge Judaism has never held to a Trinitarian view of God.

.. But unlike Islam and Mormonism, etc. Judiasm was established by God.

And when God came in person, Judaism rejected Him and His revelation. Judaism is a dead end, and their theology suffers from the same defects as does that of Islam. God Himself entered into human history, and they rejected, and reject, both Him and His revelation.

For a Jew to come to Christ does not mean that he must turn from Judiasm

No need to confess God in Three Persons, then? Is that domga merely a novelty that needn't be believed?

That cannot be said of any other religion.

It can't be realistically said of Judaism, either. Just the concept of "God Incarnate" is more than Judaism can bear.

There is no such thing as becomming a "complete Muslim" by recognizing Christ as Messiah.

Sure there is. "Muslim" means one who submits. Submission to God as He revealed Himself as our Lord Jesus Christ allows one to become truly submissive to God, hence a "complete Muslim". Why would anyone cling to Islam, or Judaism, or any religion that denies the Risen Lord once they'd come to place their faith in Him?

 

[desmalia]

To my knowledge Judaism has never held to a Trinitarian view of God.

They may not use the word trinity, but that doesn't mean they don't believe in the Father, the Spirit, and the Messiah. The prime issue is whether they recognize Christ as Messiah or not (and yes that is THE issue when it comes to salvation, no question).

And when God came in person, Judaism rejected Him and His revelation. Judaism is a dead end, and their theology suffers from the same defects as does that of Islam. God Himself entered into human history, and they rejected, and reject, both Him and His revelation.

Judaism didn't reject Him. Some Jews did, but not all. Don't forget, the earliest followers of Christ WERE Jews.

No need to confess God in Three Persons, then? Is that domga merely a novelty that needn't be believed?

Already addressed in my first comment.

It can't be realistically said of Judaism, either. Just the concept of "God Incarnate" is more than Judaism can bear.

Again, this is an inaccurate commentary on the entire faith. Yes there are many Jews whose hearts are hardened to Christ. But that does not disqualify Judaism as a whole and it does not mean that no Jew can follow Christ.

Sure there is. "Muslim" means one who submits. Submission to God as He revealed Himself as our Lord Jesus Christ allows one to become truly submissive to God, hence a "complete Muslim". Why would anyone cling to Islam, or Judaism, or any religion that denies the Risen Lord once they'd come to place their faith in Him?

It doesn't matter what the word Muslim means. I'm talking about the people who follow Islam - you know, Muhammed, and all that...

Ask any former Muslim who has become a Christian if they would call themselves a "complete Muslim". Not a chance.

A Jew can remain a Jew and follow Christ (check out the Messianic Judaism secton of CF if you don't believe me). A Muslim or Morman cannot remain in their religion and follow Christ too.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Perhaps for those who have perverted Judiasm... But unlike Islam and Mormonism, etc. Judiasm was established by God. For a Jew to come to Christ does not mean that he must turn from Judiasm (other than perhaps rejecting any man-made, anti-biblical doctrines that may have been added). That cannot be said of any other religion. There is no such thing as becomming a "complete Muslim" by recognizing Christ as Messiah.

(Oh, I just know LLOG has something to say here...)

I view Talmudic Judaism no differently than Qu'ranic Islam or any other non-CHRIST-ian religion

To view one as more favored than the other is to invite even more religious division and violence. Both Islam and Judaism are symbolically "enemies" of the Gospel of CHRIST.

 

[heron]

Obviously, becuase I'm 20, I'm a complete retard when it comes to someone older than me, is that what you're saying?

You trust your doctor to advise you on health issues because he went to school for it. IO has been investing his education time in linguistics. Whether your points are right or not, IO has a strong basis for what he is presenting. Who knows, maybe you do too. That doesn't mean he wins, but he doesn't deserve to be accused of pasting random internet finds.

Language information is complex, and we all know that word meanings can change from one city to another... even one clique to another. This is such a great opportunity to learn from each other, we should use the chance to gain from each other, rather than destroy each other.

If we are all Christians, with a core intent to shine His light wherever we go, and impact the world for His glory, then whatever good we hope to do in "real" ministry has been soured by how we treated the other members of His Body. Our family.

Sorry to butt in -- having one of those forum fracas overload weeks. Now you can call me the arrogant one and get back to learning.

 

[visionary]

Originally Posted by Jipsah
To my knowledge Judaism has never held to a Trinitarian view of God.

Maybe it is the trinitarian view of God that needs to be changed. Judaism has held a monolistic view of God, which scriptures support...

Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Since scriptures can not be broken, there has to be a way that it is all true. We just need to understand how it can be so. It could be a simple matter that when they mikvah their followers, it was a profession of faith in the truth of the three, not that they are all to be considered different gods rolled into one family, but One God who revealed Himself differently for different reasons, purposes and different times.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Just as you can be baptised for different doctrines depending on which church door you enter, so they were in their day.

The three phases of work... is the work the Father has done in OT, the phases of work that Yeshua has done, and now the work of the Holy Spirit here in the last days. Did you know each phase is about 2000 years of work? Take a look at how the geneology switches from reading the "father of" to the "son of".

 

[Nadiine]

Maybe it is the trinitarian view of God that needs to be changed. Judaism has held a monolistic view of God, which scriptures support...

Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Since scriptures can not be broken, there has to be a way that it is all true.

Actually, the Shema above is a PROOF of a Trinity. God in Hebrew is "Elohim" (PLURAL). (adding 'im' to a word in Hebrew makes it plural - equivalent to the English "s" added to the end of a word making it plural).

It reads that Elohim (plural) is ONE (singular) Lord. Technically, that's poor grammar if it wasn't meant to relay a specific point that God is plural, yet ONE God.

The trinity is taught from the OT into the NT. Here's an even stronger proof of a Trinity:

Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:'I am the first and I am the last,And there is no God besides Me.
​

This is CHRIST as the Redeemer, called (Hebrew) 'YHWY OF ARMIES/hosts' as well as claiming the same name together, "first and last". BOTH cannot be first unless they were co-eternally existant together. And, there is no other God besides them.

The trinity cannot be escaped - namely when you combine it all together.

Since scriptures can not be broken, there has to be a way that it is all true. We just need to understand how it can be so

Right, and this is why the Trinity term was coined. It defines a unity of 3 individual & unique persons/beings operating as ONE Godhead. Similar to how the Supreme Court is ONE judicial body, yet with many members that make up the court.

The three phases of work... is the work the Father has done in OT, the phases of work that Yeshua has done, and now the work of the Holy Spirit here in the last days. Did you know each phase is about 2000 years of work? Take a look at how the geneology switches from reading the "father of" to the "son of".[/

Actually, all 3 share all things together, and they are all 3 seen doing the same acts as One God. If I had time I'd give some of the examples w/ scripture - I'll try to add them all later in another post

 

[Nadiine]

Desmalia:

Perhaps for those who have perverted Judiasm... But unlike Islam and Mormonism, etc. Judiasm was established by God. For a Jew to come to Christ does not mean that he must turn from Judiasm (other than perhaps rejecting any man-made, anti-biblical doctrines that may have been added). That cannot be said of any other religion. There is no such thing as becomming a "complete Muslim" by recognizing Christ as Messiah.

 

[visionary]

Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

I am woman, mother of two, wife of my hubby, I am the first and last in the heart of my family. I am one.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

I'm a complete retard

Finally, something we can agree on!

Rdr Moses