All things

[chad kincham]

It doesn’t say to give thanks because He’s with us. It says to give thanks for all things.

You give thanks for all things because God works all things to our good, even the things satan meant for our harm, and because of promises that ‘many are the afflictions of the righteous, but God DELIVERS THEM out of them ALL’.

The Calvinist version would be, many are the afflictions God gives the righteous, and delivers them not.

 

[chad kincham]

@John Mullally.

Those quotes from Isaiah and Amos are clearly to do with bringing calamity upon rulers and wicked cities, they’re not about creating evil. Calamity, ruin, destruction, “evil,” they’re used as synonyms, most translators outside of the king James are aware of this.

Isaiah 45:7...

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
​

An easy principle to help know that the above translation is accurate is to look at the opposites.

What’s the opposite of forming light? Creating dark, obviously. What’s the opposition to God bringing prosperity, material wealth etc. Moral evil? No, that’s clearly not a proper compare and contrast style of language.

A city being plundered and brought to ruin, disaster and calamity, they are much more appropriate and work in harmony alongside the light darkness material.

That is correct. The word translated as EVIL in that text, indeed means calamity.

God creates calamity for His enemies.

God never created malevolent evil, period.

 

[Cormack]

That is correct. The word translated as EVIL in that text, indeed means calamity.

God creates calamity for His enemies.

God never created malevolent evil, period.

That “God creates evil” rubbish is a goldmine for atheists, I’ve debated more than a few who castigate God for the creation of evil using that same verse.

Calvinism is the perfect foil for atheists, they get to slander Christians by way of the foolishness of Calvinism. Learning the difference between Calvinism and garden variety Christianity is the biggest advantage a Christian can give himself before debating militant atheism.

 

[fhansen]

always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;
— Ephesians 5:20

If God has decreed all things that come to pass, it’s easy to understand how we should give thanks in all things. We may not always understand these things, especially the tragic, but we can still be thankful even through tears and mourning. We know that God’s plan will bring Him glory.

My question is for those who don’t think that God decrees all that comes to pass. How do you give thanks to God in all things if He’s not in charge of all things?

Yes, thank you, dear Lord, for the torture, rape, and murder of children and the abuse of women in India lately. Praise your holy name for that! Glory to you Lord!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

From God's POV, how can you guess at the dividing line? Is the difference between Macro and Micro not only in your mind?

Or maybe more to the point, where do you find in Scripture that God flies by the seat of his pants?

In Genesis: God created everything then slept for a day, did not feel the need to supervise.

 

[All Glory To God]

You mean like, God is not WILLING that ANY should PERISH?

Well that's sort of the point isn't it? How can God's will be no-one perish, and yet the sinner has the will to override Gods plan and choose to perish?

 

[Dave L]

The point is, the God of Calvinism is the wrong God.

The God of Calvinism is the author of sin, because their version of God decreed the fall of man into sin.

Decreed the penalty of sin is damnation and hell.

Decreed most of mankind is predestined to hell by withholding from them the regeneration it takes for them to believe - then damns them for unbelief.

Decreed 1/3 of the angels would rebel, sin, and be damned - but provided no means of redemption for any of them.

Decreed every evil act, decreed every mass murder, decreed the holocaust, decreed WW2 with 70 million deaths, decreed American civil war with 600,000 deaths.

Decrees every disease, sickness, infirmity.

Ever notice that in the Bible, Jesus healed everyone from sickness, which scripture always says was an affliction from the devil?

Not an affliction from God, but from Satan.

To review: freewill is evident in the Bible.

Satan afflicts people, not God.

What if Calvin was right about this and he speaks of the true God? Where does that leave you?

 

[All Glory To God]

.

 

[Hammster]

God is not "in charge" of all things, because He created humans with free will, the right to choose His will, or to reject His will and do our own thing. He wants each of us to freely choose to allow Him to be in charge of our life, because that will lead to our eternal happiness. But He doesn't force us to do so.

Are you saying that He cannot stop someone from sinning?

 

[All Glory To God]

@John Mullally.

Those quotes from Isaiah and Amos are clearly to do with bringing calamity upon rulers and wicked cities, they’re not about creating evil. Calamity, ruin, destruction, “evil,” they’re used as synonyms, most translators outside of the king James are aware of this.

Isaiah 45:7...

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
​

Lamentations 3:38...

Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?​

Amos 3:6...

When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it?​

​

It depends what Bible version you use, but let's say for the sake of argument it is calamities. If God is behind a calamity of a city of people, how would you describe that? Good?

Why would a trumpet sound in the ancient world (Amos 3:6,) as a warning, because of war. An easy principle to help know that the translation from Isaiah is accurate is to look at the opposites.

What’s the opposite of forming light? Creating dark, obviously. What’s the opposite of God bringing prosperity, material wealth etc. Moral evil? No, that’s clearly not a proper compare and contrast style of language.

A city being plundered and brought to ruin, disaster and calamity, they are much more appropriate and work in harmony alongside both the creation of wealth and the light darkness material.

All this part is your opinion.

 

[A_Thinker]

Well that's sort of the point isn't it? How can God's will be no-one perish, and yet the sinner has the will to override Gods plan and choose to perish?

Because the Sovereign God endows sinners with that choice ...

 

[Hammster]

Hammster,

The NET Bible footnote to Eph 5:20 is a sober reminder of the Greek grammar and the need for sound exegesis to translate, ὑπὲρ πάντων (huper pantðn) : 'Grk “for all.” The form “all” can be either neuter or masculine, and an alternative view is “for all” referring to people. The context could suggest believers (“one another” in v. 19). In other places this Greek phrase occurs in the NT, it refers to people (1 Tim 2:6; 2 Cor 5:14-15)'.

You have accepted only one view that 'all' is neuter (all things) when it provides a completely different light when translated according to the context, 'for all people'.

Oz

Interesting that they still translated it as “all things”. So I guess I’m in good company with NET.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Interesting that they still translated it as “all things”. So I guess I’m in good company with NET.

The meaning of all can also mean all of one type, this tends to be brought up when universalists insist that all means all.

 

[Hammster]

Time is simply a measure of the duration of a thing, and God being a timeless Creator has no yardstick of time that’s applicable, there’s no action of being actively in control of time any more than I’m in control of the digits on a stopwatch after I’ve pressed the button setting the thing in motion.

“every opportunity” includes not just the measure of time involved but each and every God given gift leading into our opportunities, giving thanks to God for what’s of God regardless of our difficult circumstances (e.g. “the days are evil”) is part of the Christians hope and their mettle.

Although if we’re leaving Ephesians to boldly go where no men have gone before, into space time and other quantum weirdness, I’d save everyone a whole lotta reading and plead the fifth.

ON TOPIC: For the purpose of interpreting Ephesians 5:20 it’s not particularly important how God is Lord over time, Ephesians 5 is about Christian conduct and not God’s relationship to space time.

Trying to make this section of text about anything other than Christian conduct is an open and shut case of monkeying with the meaning of scripture, being carried away with error and following a preferred invention from our favourite Bible schools, we’re all old and wise enough to know how the Bible treats that kind of monkey business...

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.​

tldr jk; quit reading Stephen Hawkins A brief history of time into Paul’s letter, he wasn’t writing weirdo stuff like that.

Really all you’ve just said is “you’re wrong”. That’s not compelling.

 

[A_Thinker]

What if Calvin was right about this and he speaks of the true God? Where does that leave you?

At worst, it leaves you being incorrect about how God works ...

Isaiah 55

8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways My ways,”
declares the LORD.

9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so My ways are higher than your ways
and My thoughts than your thoughts.”

 

[Hammster]

You give thanks for all things because God works all things to our good, even the things satan meant for our harm, and because of promises that ‘many are the afflictions of the righteous, but God DELIVERS THEM out of them ALL’.

The Calvinist version would be, many are the afflictions God gives the righteous, and delivers them not.

No, the Reformed view is that Satan is on a leash, and God can tighten or loosen that leash to accomplish His plan. See: the cross.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, thank you, dear Lord, for the torture, rape, and murder of children and the abuse of women in India lately. Praise your holy name for that! Glory to you Lord!

I know this probably won’t be answered, but can God stop those things, or is He impotent?

 

[Cormack]

If God is behind a calamity of a city of people, how would you describe that? Good?

Well however it’s described, that’s not evil. Things we dislike aren’t necessarily evil, so calamity and disaster and hardships might be unfortunate, but they’re not by definition moral evil or any kind of evil. You took those verses out of context to teach something they don’t teach, namely that “God creates evil,” that’s not the message.

All this part is your opinion.

It’s simply good hermeneutics, I didn’t invent the rules nor do I enforce them, I’m just the messenger teaching you what mature interpretation looks like.

It’s not my opinion that in the ancient world the sound of the trumpet meant war, reread that quotation from Amos, there’s the sound of a trumpet and the city “trembles.” Why tremble? Because the ice cream man is coming into town? No, it’s because the trumpet signifies war and warnings of war, hence the disaster and calamity.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Why tremble? Because the ice cream man is coming into town?

Good one.

 

[Hammster]

The meaning of all can also mean all of one type, this tends to be brought up when universalists insist that all means all.

Even if it’s all types of things, how would you determine which things to give thanks for, and which ones to not give thanks for?