All things

[Gregory Thompson]

Even if it’s all types of things, how would you determine which things to give thanks for, and which ones to not give thanks for?

The passage that comes to mind is Philippians 4:4-9.

Emphasis on verse 8

 

[Hammster]

The passage that comes to mind is Philippians 4:4-9.

Emphasis on verse 8

You should keep going.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You should keep going.

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

A good point, so I can do all sinful things through Christ who strengthens me?

Of course not, there is a degree of context when the term all is used.

 

[Hammster]

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

A good point, so I can do all sinful things through Christ who strengthens me?

Of course not, there is a degree of context when the term all is used.

Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.
— Philippians 4:11-12
Do you think Paul was thankful for all of that?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.
— Philippians 4:11-12
Do you think Paul was thankful for all of that?

Wasn't the point of that part of the passage, so it doesn't say.

Paul according to Peter was pretty hard to understand even for people who had met him personally, so can't say what Paul was thinking since he's not here to tell us.

 

[fhansen]

I know this probably won’t be answered, but can God stop those things, or is He impotent?

God, since Eden, has sovereignly decreed by His wisdom that such evil be allowed, that His will be overridden, that His will not necessarily be done on earth as it is in heaven if those outside of heaven so desire.

Obviously He can stop evil; He could’ve prevented it to begin with by withholding free will from any part of His creation, or by not creating at all for that matter. But instead God’s plan is to create something, something great, something even better than He began with, and the will of His creation-of us-is intrinsically bound up with that plan. When our wills are freely aligned with His, with His help, our own purpose or teleios is achieved.

Meanwhile, if His will involves the things in my post, making Him the direct cause of those evils, then He’d certainly be worse than Satan, with no part of His own creation more blameworthy than Himself, let alone guilty of eternal torment, and such a god wouldn’t be worth trusting or following.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

An example where Paul was not thankful.

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! (Galatians 5:12)

 

[Hammster]

Wasn't the point of that part of the passage, so it doesn't say.

Paul according to Peter was pretty hard to understand even for people who had met him personally, so can't say what Paul was thinking since he's not here to tell us.

Well, he was thankful or he wasn’t. I think from reading Paul we can make a pretty good guess.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well, he was thankful or he wasn’t. I think from reading Paul we can make a pretty good guess.

A good guess is still eisegesis, I prefer Jesus.

 

[Cormack]

Really all you’ve just said is “you’re wrong”. That’s not compelling.

Mmhmm, that’s a very limp and disinterested reply. Not a response, just a reply, I can’t describe it as a response because you didn’t respond to anything.

If you ignore my use of interpretive principles, phraseology (e.g. “the days are evil”) and you dismiss the entire purpose of Ephesians 5 (AKA Christian conduct,) then yes you could boil my message down to “I am right and you are wrong.”

@All Glory To God is trying to play the same game. “Well, that’s just your opinion.” Yes it’s my opinion, but not merely my opinion, it’s not an opinion formed upon tastes or preference but upon what the Bible actually says (not upon what you guys want it to say.)

I’m literally walking you through the text, verse by verse I’ve sent messages explaining the immediate context to Ephesians 5:20, while you guys are pointing at standalone verses and saying “SEE!” “SEE IT SAYS EVIL, GOD CREATES EVIL.” Or “SEE IT SAYS ALL THINGS.” That’s not good enough.

 

[Hammster]

God, since Eden, has sovereignly decreed by His wisdom that such evil be allowed, that His will be overridden, that His will not necessarily be done on earth as it is in heaven if those outside of heaven so desire.

Obviously He can stop evil; He could’ve prevented it to begin with by withholding free will from any part of His creation, or by not creating at all for that matter. But instead God’s plan is to create something, something great, something even better than He began with, and the will of His creation-of us-is intrinsically bound up with that plan. When our wills are freely aligned with His, with His help, our own purpose or teleios is achieved.

Meanwhile, if His will involves the things in my post, making Him the direct cause of those evils, then He’d certainly be worse than Satan, with no part of His own creation more blameworthy than Himself, let alone guilty of eternal torment, and such a god wouldn’t be worth trusting or following.

One, I’ve never said that He is the direct cause of evil. And two, if He can stop evil, and He doesn’t, what does that say about Him? Either He’s evil, or there’s a purpose.

 

[Hammster]

An example where Paul was not thankful.

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! (Galatians 5:12)

I don’t see the part where he’s not thankful.

 

[Hammster]

Mmhmm, that’s a very limp and disinterested reply. Not a response, just a reply, I can’t describe it as a response because you didn’t respond to anything.

If you ignore my use of interpretive principles, phraseology (e.g. “the days are evil”) and you dismiss the entire purpose of Ephesians 5 (AKA Christian conduct,) then yes you could boil my message down to “I am right and you are wrong.”

@All Glory To God is trying to play the same game. “Well, that’s just your opinion.” Yes it’s my opinion, but not merely my opinion, it’s not an opinion formed upon tastes or preference but upon what the Bible actually says (not upon what you guys want it to say.)

I’m literally walking you through the text, verse by verse I’ve sent messages explaining the immediate context to Ephesians 5:20, while you guys are pointing at standalone verses and saying “SEE!” “SEE IT SAYS EVIL, GOD CREATES EVIL.” Or “SEE IT SAYS ALL THINGS.” That’s not good enough.

I responded to your attempt to take it verse by verse. And I explained how it doesn’t help.

 

[Cormack]

I responded to your attempt to take it verse by verse. And I explained how it doesn’t help.

What message # are you calling your response to my verse by verse walk through the text?

Because if you didn’t respond to my interpretation of the text with a better interpretation of the text, I’m going to be smiling here.

Listing the message number # will work fine.

 

[Hammster]

What message # are you calling your response to my verse by verse walk through the text?

Because if you didn’t respond to my interpretation of the text with a better interpretation of the text, I’m going to be smiling here.

Listing the message number # will work fine.

My interpretation of the text is all throughout the thread, with me being the OP and all. And I obviously think mine is better.

 

[Cormack]

I responded to your attempt to take it verse by verse. And I explained how it doesn’t help.

My interpretation of the text is all throughout the thread, with me being the OP and all. And I obviously think mine is better.

No I don’t think you’ve been responding to me all throughout the thread. Where have you responded to my verse by verse interpretation, writing an OP clearly isn’t a response to anything I’ve written. Which # do you believe is your response to me, you wrote you’ve responded so where can I find that?

 

[All Glory To God]

Well however it’s described, that’s not evil. Things we dislike aren’t necessarily evil, so calamity and disaster and hardships might be unfortunate, but they’re not by definition moral evil or any kind of evil. You took those verses out of context to teach something they don’t teach, namely that “God creates evil,” that’s not the message.



It’s simply good hermeneutics, I didn’t invent the rules nor do I enforce them, I’m just the messenger teaching you what mature interpretation looks like.

It’s not my opinion that in the ancient world the sound of the trumpet meant war, reread that quotation from Amos, there’s the sound of a trumpet and the city “trembles.” Why tremble? Because the ice cream man is coming into town? No, it’s because the trumpet signifies war and warnings of war, hence the disaster and calamity.

I didn't take verses out of context, I just quoted them. They happen to be from a Bible version that renders a translations unfavorable to your belief system for that particular doctrine but all I did was quote them.

My question was about God causing calamities in cities of people.

 

[Hammster]

No I don’t think you’ve been responding to me all throughout the thread. Where have you responded to my verse by verse interpretation, writing an OP clearly isn’t a response to anything I’ve written. Which # do you believe is your response to me, you wrote you’ve responded so where can I find that?

I see that you disagree.

 

[fhansen]

One, I’ve never said that He is the direct cause of evil. And two, if He can stop evil, and He doesn’t, what does that say about Him? Either He’s evil, or there’s a purpose.

If man can will only evil and cannot choose otherwise, then God is the only cause left standing. The evil experienced down through the centuries on this earth can only serve a purpose if the will of man is the cause of it, and is also employed in the ultimate shunning of it. Otherwise creation as we know it is an exercise in futility, with all the evil and the suffering it produced being gratuitous. God may as well have precluded it and stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest at the beginning if His plan wasn’t to gradually, patiently, turn man from evil to good, darkness to light, appealing to and drawing man’s will towards that light with His creation’s own justice and righteousness being perfected as that will increasingly aligns with His: for goodness and against sin/evil. Then something of value and worth is produced out of the mess and chaos of this world.

 

[Cormack]

@All Glory To God (take 1...and action!)

Sorry but you ran off from an important part of this conversation, which is what part God plays in creating evil. Let's pick up from there:

Isaiah 45:7
Lamentations 3:38
Amos 3:6

@All Glory To God (take 2!)...

My question was about God causing calamities in cities of people.

Not the same thing ^^^^^ If you assume God judging a wicked nation by bringing an enemy against them is “the creation of evil,” that’s something to be proved, not assumed. You proved nothing and assumed everything, and those assumptions based upon Isaiah, Amos and Lamentations were mistaken.