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Featured All Israel is saved

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by claninja, Jan 15, 2018.

  1. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'd venture guess that there's a lot more than 2 or 3 witnesses on this forum which would agree. When believers come together, they should reason it out together, you say you like to have "a good debate" well to most of us, this is not about "debating", it's about truth and about life but to you it's more about winning an argument. The original apostles had disagreements, but they worked them out, and when they did, they were all happy because the eventually came to the truth. And it wasn't about who was right, it was about what was right and I think that's the way most of us view it (at least I hope so). It's obvious that one of us is right and the other is likely wrong. If it were me, I'd personally like to know about it, I'd like to fix it but to be quite honest, I can't think of one thing that you've shown me that I don't already know or that has changed my opinion. You know what, it doesn't matter what you or I say, the truth will prevail. Nothing (no lies or deceit) will prevent the truth from rising to the top and everyone will know.

    Isaiah 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
    Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.


    2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
     
  2. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Please stop that.
     
  3. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    It is through those five foolish virgins that 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 happens. They are the false body of Christ which rises up and takes control of the fleshly court of God's temple. It is all part of how that court is trampled by the nations.
     
  4. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Don't put up with him Buzz. You've been very gracious with him and he shows no appreciation. I know that you've been trying to help him but he doesn't want any but I appreciate you. Don't get too caught up in the over spiritualization "trap" which is easy to do, especially when someone is constantly claiming you are not spiritual enough (even claiming worse that you're carnal when they don't even know you). Understanding of the spirit world is one of the most difficult for us believers as it a realm that we really don't have much insight to and as a result can get easily 'tricked" into things we can misinterpret so we must be careful or we can locked into things like slae apparently have gotten themselves locked into. I too would like to help but it appears to be fruitless as grace can only go so far unfortunately with one who just does not have an ear to hear no matter how many try and show him the error of his ways. We can still pray for him of course but we apparently can't reason with him.
     
  5. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    How can I say that for sure? I will try to help you see what i am seeing.

    Remember the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man? That Rich Man pictured the Jewish religious leaders and Lazarus the belongings they had the responsibility to feed. But they fed Lazarus only crumbs from their table.

    Now see the 5 wise virgins:
    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    And now see the 5 foolish virgins who were like those Jewish religious leaders the Rich Man pictured:
    Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    We clearly see that it is the spiritual leaders being spoken to. The ones with the responsibility of feeding and caring for God's flock and bringing new ones in.

    There are yet other ways we can see this from. But they get a bit deeper spiritually and so I hesitate to discuss them in this setting. They will just draw attack from minds unable to yet see them clearly and there is enough fighting to hide the rich spiritual food on each page.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  6. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have been seeing that for a while, but I try to keep posting hoping that onlookers may be reading and benefiting.

    It can be taxing at times, especially if my health feels poor or if I get too tired. I tend to try to push myself anyway knowing that the test of fire helps me to see things about myself. In that sense even he can help me so long as i do not take it personal and don't expect too much too fast.

    One never really knows. I have seen some very hard-core cases seem quite hopeless and then out of the blue suddenly have a change of heart. We just have to be realistic about it.
     
  7. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    It is very difficult for you for you are carnal and a false teacher.
     
  8. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
     
  9. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    In the OP by claninja, the conclusion was, quote, "Only the ethnic remnant is true Israel, therefore, God saving all the ethnic remnant of Israel chosen according grace, is saving All ethnic Israel."

    Have we yet established that this is a mere matter of perspective dependent on whom the subject focuses on in a particular chapter and that it is only in relation to speaking only of the ethnic Israel that only ethnic Israel's remnant are the portion of that ethnic Israel which is the true Israel but that this does not in actuality constitute all of the true Israel?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  10. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Jeremiah 6:20-21 “What does this matter to me that you bring in even frankincense from She′ba and the good cane from the land far away? The whole burnt offerings of YOU people serve for no pleasure, and YOUR very sacrifices have not been gratifying to me.” Therefore this is what Jehovah has said: “Here I am setting for this people stumbling blocks, and they will certainly stumble over them, fathers and sons together; the neighbor and his companion—they will perish.”
     
  11. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think what happens when God keeps "pounding" on them His truths yet they continually resist and will not hear His voice, at some point is when the "hardening of hearts" comes in. God hates the proud (stubborn) but rewards the humble. If you are in a discussion (or debate) with a number of those who supposedly (typically of a significant number) and are totally resistant to even "considering" what they are saying, this is not the type of behavior that God appreciates.

    1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    This is the spirit specifically talking here.
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
    Notice the word conscience, which means "co-perception". According to the dictionary (merriam-webster)
    Definition of perception for English Language Learners. : the way you think about or understand someone or something. : the ability to understand or notice something easily. : the way that you notice or understand something using one of your senses.
    I think that there's an even "deeper" meaning to that word. Since the word "co" is used in it which means "along with" the Bible is telling us that it's not just about we ourselves perceive but also what our fellow believers believe, based on each of our perceptions on a matter. This means that we should always be striving to come to some mutual understanding and not be so dogmatic on our own particular beliefs even though at times it may not be the case. If we're true believers and are following the Word, the Bible tells us that we are to be "like-minded" should we not, that is if we're all reading from the same book. Be blessed. There I go again, quoting the "letter". Shame on me for doing so. Just demonstrates how carnal and religious I am.
    Notice the green font. :smiley:
     
  12. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    With some, all we get is practice. :)
     
  13. RisenInJesus

    RisenInJesus Well-Known Member

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    I think the scriptures indicate that the 144,000 are 12, 000 sealed from the tribes of Israel to be servants of God during the tribulation period:

    Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:


    of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
    of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
    Revelation 7:2-8
     
  14. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Notice that the tribe of Levi is there named but no tribe of Dan.

    The tribe of Levi was not given their own land but were instead appointed as the priestly tribe over all of the land. Joesph was considered the first born as Reuben had lost that right by his ill conduct as seen at Genesis 49:3, 4 and 1Chronicles 5:1, 2. The tribe being called Joseph evidently correlates to the tribe which was called Ephraim. And Joesph was given two parts through his sons, Manasseh on his right hand and Ephraim on his left hand. That kept the number of tribes as twelve who were considered as chieftains in the land so that Levi could be separated away for the Levitical priesthood.
    Dan is not shown as having done anything which would explain his its exclusion from this list and therefore it seems reasonable to figure that Dan was merely excluded to make room for the tribe of Levi to be listed.

    But the significance of Levi being listed as one of the tribes is that it shows the Levitical priesthood is no longer in force and that thus the entire nation has become a kingdom of priests (rather, I should say, 'a nation in the running to be priests with Christ') instead of just that one tribe of Levi being that priesthood. Thus we know this Israel is what Peter spoke about concerning the church:

    1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

    But we need to remember what Peter also told us about that new nation:

    1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

    And only a portion of it would qualify for a better resurrection (or, higher calling):

    Philippians 3:14 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

    2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:'

    That some make the prize of the high calling and some do not make it in this life does not mean those who did not make that calling to be king/priests with Christ are necessarily lost. The judgment to come is a merciful judgment true to God's nature.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  15. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is difficult for you because you choose to close your eyes to the truth, and who are wise in their own conceit.
    Isaiah 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
    Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.


    2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
     
  16. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Nope but you do. But is not not your fought because you are carnal and not a spiritual man. I am not into the letter that killeth. But I will say these verse do fit who you are.
     
  17. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Perish does not mean perish forever. But that's what you need to support your endless annihilation heresy.

    "684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being(Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11)."

    Strong's Greek: 684. ἀπώλεια (apóleia) -- destruction, loss

    In Acts 25:16 the word is used of death. Likewise in Deut.4:26, Esth.7:4, Prov.6:15, Isa.34:5, LXX. Yet death is temporary & will be reversed with the resurrection of all. So destruction does not have to mean finality or an irreversible state. Neither does it necessarily mean when applied to humans that they can't be saved. That has to be read into the text with fallible human opinion.

    Apoleia is from apollumi which is used of the "lost" prodigal son who became "found", as well as the "lost" coin & sheep that were found (Luke 15). So clearly there is the possibility of salvation after being destroyed/lost.

    "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water." (I Pet.3:18-20).


    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

    preaching.

    From kerusso; a proclamation (especially of the gospel; by implication, the gospel itself) -- preaching.

    see GREEK kerusso
     
  18. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Strong's Concordance

    katakrinó: to give judgment against

    Original Word: κατακρίνω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: katakrinó
    Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ak-ree'-no)
    Short Definition: I condemn
    Definition: I condemn, judge worthy of punishment.

    2632 katakrínō(from 2596 /katá, "down, according to" intensifying 2919 /krínō, "judge") – properly, judge down, i.e. issue a penalty (exactly condemn); to judge someone "decisively (decidedly) as guilty."

    Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable (the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell) heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
     
  19. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What is, "swift destruction" and what does it mean? I notice that you've inserted in parenthesis (your own words) that it is "eternal damnation in hell" Yet you also claim that everyone is going to be saved (including Satan) which would be a complete contradiction. You can't have it both ways (you sure try hard to do so). Going by your your doctrine, even if all those things you claim about me, false teacher, etc., who cares since according to you it doesn't matter since under your teachings, I'm going to be saved regardless.

    I'm sure that under your doctrine that no matter how much evil I do in this life I'd be saved since there's no way I'd be able to come close to the evil and misery caused by Satan on this earth. So I guess that I (and everyone else for that matter) might as well go out and murder, steal, rape and pillage since God's going to find a way to bring us to heaven anyways according to your way of thinking.

    Personally, I wouldn't want to go to heaven if it was a place like that with people who've caused so much suffering to others throughout world history and have no remorse about it and I seriously doubt most Christians would either. You and Satan can have that place all to yourselves, I want no part of it. It just doesn't make any sense for things tor workout the way you say they will.

    2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV)
    6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    You and your "letter", how many times do I have to tell you that "the letter which killeth" refers to the Old Testament LAW", "letter" of the New Testament (which is the "written Word") is what today's Christians go by and is grace and is spiritually discerned (understood). Stop with the phony argument when someone disagrees with you and you claim they're carnal implying they have no spiritual understanding) and just going by what you refer to as "the letter" when they use scripture to prove you wrong. Yet, what do you do when you use scripture? Is it not the "letter" when you use it? Very hypocritical.

    'The letter of the law versus the spirit of the law is an idiomatic antithesis. When one obeys the letter of the law but not the spirit, one is obeying the literal interpretation of the words (the "letter") of the law, but not necessarily the intent of those who wrote the law."

    You have to have the "letter" of the law, before you can determine what the "spirit" of it is otherwise what are you figuring actually out? Might as well through your Bible away since all it is is a bunch of "letters" according to you. You can just let your false spirit tell you what you need to know. Is that what you're doing? Of course I'm being somewhat facetious here but it's the written word (or the "letter") as you prefer to call it that allows to "test" the spirits to see if they really be of God and not one of Satan's tricksters.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
     
  20. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    You are far to religious and carnal and not spiritual to understand. Besides you are a false teacher.

    Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable (the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell) heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


    Strong's Concordance

    katakrinó: to give judgment against

    Original Word: κατακρίνω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: katakrinó
    Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ak-ree'-no)
    Short Definition: I condemn
    Definition: I condemn, judge worthy of punishment.

    2632 katakrínō(from 2596 /katá, "down, according to" intensifying 2919 /krínō, "judge") – properly, judge down, i.e. issue a penalty (exactly condemn); to judge someone "decisively (decidedly) as guilty."
     
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