All here, Please read and comment..need input

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Qoheleth

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Here is a link below on what Conversion is and what it entails. Please read closely, and carefully and then add your comments. It shouls only take about 10 minutes.

I feel this article is saying that all of conversion is initiated by God through the Word and and ones salvation (conversion) is solely the work of the Lord.

Would this accurately be the same as Lutheran theology on conversion??


http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/bfranklin/TGP06.HTM
 

Lotar

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I'll try and write something at lunch.

The short answer is no, not even close. He spends half the essay condemning the Pope, then spells out conversion in a way that is even more horrendous than that of the Romanists.

They call him "The Gospel Preacher"? I saw nothing but the Law...
 
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Lotar

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I. What, then, is meant by a distinct divine change in the heart? Such a change as destroys the love of sin and establishes the love of God in the heart of the sinner. The love of sin must be completely destroyed in the heart, so [137] that the subject hates it and no longer desires to practice it; and the love of God, of righteousness, and holiness, established in the heart, so as to create hunger and thirst after righteousness. In nine-tenths of the cases where preachers talk of "experimental religion," and require persons to tell experiences, the amount of the experience is no more than that the subject has experienced a change--that what the subject once loved he now hates, and what he once hated he now loves. This is all right as far as it goes, but, in many churches, it is taken for more than there is in it. It is taken not only for what it is--a change in the heart--but for the entire process of turning to God; a work of grace, evidence of pardon, the impartation of the Holy Spirit--a new creature. This is too much. All this is not in it. Where the statement is true, there is this much in it, a change in the heart--no more. The love of sin is destroyed in the heart and the love of God established there. That is all. There is no repentance, no change of relation, no pardon, no impartation of the Holy Spirit. The person is simply prepared in heart for all the balance of the work which should follow. Those who thus limit conversion do not comprehend the work. They stop with a single item.
Wrong. If the love of sin was destroyed, then we would not sin, plain as that. We cannot do that which we have not the will to do. Therefore, by his reasoning, none of us can be saved, as none of us can stop loving sin.

A divine change in the heart is the Holy Spirit working within us the will to do what is right. The will to do what is evil still remains, and must be struggled against, this is what St. Paul calls the will of the Flesh and the will of the Spirit. At the same time we love evil and hate evil, two conflicting wills, this is what why we say we are at the same time both saint and sinner. Through the process of sanctification the will of the flesh is destroyed, but this is not completed until after we die.


II. What produces this distinct divine change in the heart? It has already been stated that faith produces it.
Absolutely wrong. This change in the heart is required to have faith, and both are works of the Holy Spirit.

Simply, one cannot have faith in God unless one has had his heart changed by God. We cannot do something spiritual while our hearts are still evil.

To have the Holy Spirit in one's heart is to be both regenerate and have faith.

The change in the heart of the sinner, as described in this discourse, is not pardon, nor an evidence of pardon, but a change in his heart, preparing him in heart for pardon. This change, then, is here taken for just what it is, no more, no less. The heart is turned to the Lord. He is now right in heart. This is the first distinct divine change.
Here he clearly teaches faith and works. Christ's merit imputed by grace through faith is the sole cause of our salvation. When one is regenerate, one has faith, when one has faith, he is justified. It is upon Christ's account we are saved, not some combination of our merit plus His.

III. The next distinct divine change, is a divine change in the life. All the change a man can have in his heart amounts to nothing, unless there is a corresponding change in his life. The Lord's appointment to produce this, is repentance. Repentance is a change in the mind or purpose. When this repentance is what it ought to be, and what must be, to be acceptable to the Lord, it is a change of mind or purpose sufficient to result in a change of life, or in a reformation of life. Repentance does not change the past life. This is beyond the reach of the sinner. Nothing short of the hand of God can change the past life. Pardon separates the sinner from the past life, all its guilt, and the consequences that would follow in the world to come without pardon. The penitent regrets the past life, sorrows for the sins with which it is filled up, and grieves over them, but this in no way changes his relation to the past life. Nothing but an act of mercy from the Sovereign, in graciously granting [143] pardon, can change the sinner's relation to his past sins. This is not repentance. Repentance looks to the future life. When it is genuine, such as it must be in order to be acceptable to God, it is a change of mind or purpose so great as to result in a change in life for the time to come. It looks forward and promises to cover the whole future life, while pardon looks back and covers the whole of the past life, saving him from the past as repentance does from the future. This repentance prepares the sinner in life or in character for pardon, but is not pardon itself. When the sinner is changed in heart, so that the love of sin is destroyed in his soul and the love of God established in him, and so changed in his mind as to destroy the practice of sin, as to induce him to cease to do evil and learn to do well--to desire from his heart to do the will of God--to hunger and thirst after righteousness--he is a proper subject for pardon.
Again, the same as above.

Repentance is not a cause of salvation, ie, we are not saved because we repent. Now, there most certainly must be repentance, not because repentance saves, but because unrepentance maims, kills, and destroys.

Such is why a little child, baptized into Christ's name, may have faith and be saved even before they learn the concept of repentence.

IV. Though the sinner is now changed in his heart and life, the love and practice of sin both destroyed in him, there is yet no change in his relation. He is still in the same state. He is greatly changed, but the relation is not changed. The change, so far, is only in him, not in the relation, at all. Being now changed in heart and life, and thus fitted for the new relation, he is now a proper subject for a new state or relation. What is it, then, that transfers the person into the new state or relation; the person whose heart has been changed by faith, and whose life has been changed by repentance? Immersion into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is the divine appointment to change the state or relation. Immersion does not change the heart nor the life, but the state or relation of the person whose heart and life have been changed by faith and repentance. This accounts for one trouble that many people find. They find many good people who have never been immersed, and many bad people who have been immersed. [144] This is a plain matter. Immersion does not make them good. It changes neither their hearts nor lives. If persons are immersed who have not the faith to change them in heart, or the repentance to change them in life, as, no doubt, is the case with many, they will be no better than they were before. But that does not prove that the person who is changed in heart by faith, and changed in life by repentance, is in the new state till immersed into Christ, or that he need not be immersed into Christ. He is the very person that ought to be immersed into Christ.
In the most anabaptistical way, he makes a mockery of the Sacrament. He takes the Gospel message of the Sacrament of Baptism, and turns it into pure Law.

God works through means of grace. It is through these means that grace is recieved. The Word is not only recieved through words, but also through baptism and communion.

Conversion is brought about through preaching of the Word and/or Baptism. Baptism is not something we have to do in order to be justified, it is not a work of man, it is a work of God. When one is baptized, the Holy Spirit works regeneration, faith, and the forgiveness of sins. It is true that this can be resisted, so one who is baptized is not necessarily saved.

At the same time, look at the thief on the cross, did he get baptized? Just as unrepentance damns and yet repentance does not save, it is also true that baptism saves and yet lack of baptism does not damn.


I could go on, but my time has run out... ;)
 
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Spence06

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look at the thief on the cross, did he get baptized?


Just to let you know, The Catholic Church teaches "Baptism of Desire." Which I would imagine the theif on the cross would fall under. Is this the same in Lutheran Churchs and the neccesity of baptism for salvation?
 
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Protoevangel

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Spence06 said:
Just to let you know, The Catholic Church teaches "Baptism of Desire." Which I would imagine the theif on the cross would fall under. Is this the same in Lutheran Churchs and the neccesity of baptism for salvation?
I am not sure if we define "Baptism of Desire" per se, but I think the concept is similar.
 
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ByzantineDixie

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I think I would agree with this...Baptism is necessary but not absolutely necessary...if there wasn't an opportunity for Baptism, but the Holy Spirit had brought the individual to faith and something happened before Baptism could be performed, the individual would be saved.

However, the faith of an individual (if ever present in the first place) who refuses Baptism is in GRAVE danger...and it is that faith that saves so its a very scary situation and one we could not, with loving Christian concern, support.

Peace

Rose
 
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Qoheleth

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Lotar said:
Wrong. If the love of sin was destroyed, then we would not sin, plain as that
Well, before I didnt care if I sinned or wronged another or myself. Now, I do hate sin, what it does to others and pray for the strength to overcome. I cannot abide sin, mine and others. I do not love sin any longer. Isnt he speaking of the beginnings of the convicting of the heart by the Holy Spirit. I tend to think he is. I dont see where he mentions that we will not sin ever again.

Lotar said:
Absolutely wrong. This change in the heart is required to have faith, and both are works of the Holy Spirit.
So are you saying that the change of heart and faith are both works of God?

Lotar said:
Simply, one cannot have faith in God unless one has had his heart changed by God. We cannot do something spiritual while our hearts are still evil.

To have the Holy Spirit in one's heart is to be both regenerate and have faith.
It seems to me that he is talking about the very first step of conversion in how the Word of God convicts (through and by the Holy Spirit) one of their sinful nature. God initiated this by his life giving word. At the moment the word was received, a measure of faith/belief is apprehended.

I suppose at this point the Holy sprirt in the word can be rejected if we do not remain passive to it.

Lotar said:
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The change in the heart of the sinner, as described in this discourse, is not pardon, nor an evidence of pardon, but a change in his heart, preparing him in heart for pardon. This change, then, is here taken for just what it is, no more, no less. The heart is turned to the Lord. He is now right in heart. This is the first distinct divine change.
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Here he clearly teaches faith and works. Christ's merit imputed by grace through faith is the sole cause of our salvation. When one is regenerate, one has faith, when one has faith, he is justified. It is upon Christ's account we are saved, not some combination of our merit plus His.
I dont see where he attributes this to our merit.

Repentance is not a cause of salvation, ie, we are not saved because we repent. Now, there most certainly must be repentance, not because repentance saves, but because unrepentance maims, kills, and destroys.
Well, I still do not see him stating that repentance saves or is a work, only that it is a part of the process. I recall scripture saying..."Repent, Believe and be baptized..." in more than one place.

Lotar said:
In the most anabaptistical way, he makes a mockery of the Sacrament. He turns the Gospel message of the Sacrament of Baptism, and turns it into pure Law.

God works through means of grace. It is through these means that grace is recieved. The Word is not only recieved through words, but also through baptism and communion.

Conversion is brought about through preaching of the Word and/or Baptism. Baptism is not something we have to do in order to be justified, it is not a work of man, it is a work of God. When one is baptized, the Holy Spirit works regeneration, faith, and the forgiveness of sins. It is true that this can be resisted, so one who is baptized is not necessarily saved.

At the same time, look at the thief on the cross, did he get baptized? Just as unrepentance damns and yet repentance does not save, it is also true that baptism saves and yet lack of baptism does not damn.
Wow, a mockery. I see him saying its necessary which tells me he feels that it must be done as part of a process ordained and commanded. How is that a work or a mockery.

Lotar said:
When one is baptized, the Holy Spirit works regeneration, faith, and the forgiveness of sins.
Believe, repent and be baptized. Im sorry, your order and scriptures order seem to be reversed. What am I missing here?
 
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Qoheleth

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Luthers Rose said:
I think I would agree with this...Baptism is necessary but not absolutely necessary
Let me stop my head from spinning for a second. Help me here. How can baptism be "Necessary" but not "absolutey necessary" This doesnt compute with my frail brain. It seems like your saying here that its more of an ordinance then a sacrament. Isnt baptism for the remission of sins as scripture states.
 
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Bradford

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Qoheleth said:
Let me stop my head from spinning for a second. Help me here. How can baptism be "Necessary" but not "absolutey necessary" This doesnt compute with my frail brain. It seems like your saying here that its more of an ordinance then a sacrament. Isnt baptism for the remission of sins as scripture states.
Let me try. Baptism is necessary in the sense that IF the opprotunity for Baptism is there, and it is rejected- this is dangerous (lethal?) to faith.

However, Baptism is not necessary, in the sense that no man may be saved without it. Look at the thief on the cross. For a modern example, say, someone dies in a car wreck, on their way to be baptized. Does that lack of baptism damn? Surely God has more mercy than that!
 
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ByzantineDixie

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Exactly, Bradford!

To expand a bit on the idea ...from the LCMS Q&A:

LCMS Q&A said:
Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthen faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.

The LCMS does not believe that baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross was saved (apparently without baptism), as were all true believers in the Old Testament era. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power or the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has his precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere "ritual" or "symbol," but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.
Now I have heard some argue that the thief on the cross is a poor example since the sacrament of Baptism (not John's Baptism of repentence but the Sacrament) was not instituted until Pentecost but my understanding of that is a bit limited. Thief or not...the point being...it is not Baptism that saves, but faith.

Does this help clear things up a bit?

Rose
 
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SPALATIN

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Luthers Rose said:
Exactly, Bradford!

To expand a bit on the idea ...from the LCMS Q&A:

Now I have heard some argue that the thief on the cross is a poor example since the sacrament of Baptism (not John's Baptism of repentence but the Sacrament) was not instituted until Pentecost but my understanding of that is a bit limited. Thief or not...the point being...it is not Baptism that saves, but faith.

Does this help clear things up a bit?

Rose
I believe that filosofer had a post on another thread similar. Baptism is necessary but not absolutely necessary. We come to faith by hearing the Word and that Word connected to the water baptizes. So if we never heard the Word we would never come to salvation. So it is the Word of God that saves.

How'd I do filo?
 
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Qoheleth

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Bradford said:
Let me try. Baptism is necessary in the sense that IF the opprotunity for Baptism is there, and it is rejected- this is dangerous (lethal?) to faith.

However, Baptism is not necessary, in the sense that no man may be saved without it. Look at the thief on the cross. For a modern example, say, someone dies in a car wreck, on their way to be baptized. Does that lack of baptism damn? Surely God has more mercy than that!

Okay, Im warming up here. So, what your saying is (correct me now) If one is able to be baptised and refuses, then we really have a problem due to the fact that they are not being obedient and in essence refusing the true means of faith. But, if one intends to be baptised and for some unfortunate reason (legitimate) can not, then he will still be saved because of his desire. This I believe is the same as the RCCs "baptism of desire"...yes, no??

Luthers Rose said:
Now I have heard some argue that the thief on the cross is a poor example since the sacrament of Baptism (not John's Baptism of repentence but the Sacrament) was not instituted until Pentecost but my understanding of that is a bit limited
Well, I agree. I have read some interesting theological studies on this, and most agree this argument holds next to no water.


Okay, so, as scripture states, isnt baptism for the forgiveness of sins also. Can anyone help me with that as being a necessary part.
 
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Qoheleth

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SLStrohkirch said:
I believe that filosofer had a post on another thread similar. Baptism is necessary but not absolutely necessary. We come to faith by hearing the Word and that Word connected to the water baptizes. So if we never heard the Word we would never come to salvation. So it is the Word of God that saves.

How'd I do filo?
...and I tend to agree yet scripture does make a point to say it must be done emphatically and I strugle with this when I need to explain it to others.
 
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Lotar

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Qoheleth said:
Well, before I didnt care if I sinned or wronged another or myself. Now, I do hate sin, what it does to others and pray for the strength to overcome. I cannot abide sin, mine and others. I do not love sin any longer. Isnt he speaking of the beginnings of the convicting of the heart by the Holy Spirit. I tend to think he is. I dont see where he mentions that we will not sin ever again.
You miss my point, most specifically the part you cut out. We cannot do anything that we do not have the will to do. For example, if you stood at the edge of a cliff, you could theoretically jump off. But, if you do not have the will to do it, ie, there is no desire for what ever reason, it is impossible for you to do so, simply because it will never enter your mind.



So, the fact that you sin is positive proof that you have a will to sin, the desire to sin. The Spiritual part of you, given by God, desires to do right and hates sin, but the will of your flesh desires to do evil and loves sin. That is why you are both saint and sinner, you both hate and love sin.





So are you saying that the change of heart and faith are both works of God?
Indeed.





It seems to me that he is talking about the very first step of conversion in how the Word of God convicts (through and by the Holy Spirit) one of their sinful nature. God initiated this by his life giving word. At the moment the word was received, a measure of faith/belief is apprehended.



I suppose at this point the Holy sprirt in the word can be rejected if we do not remain passive to it.
He states that faith produces a changed heart, which is wrong, one must have a changed heart in order to have faith. This is the very first step of conversion, if you wish to state it so, though it is more correct to say that at once both a changed heart and faith is given.







I dont see where he attributes this to our merit.





Well, I still do not see him stating that repentance saves or is a work, only that it is a part of the process. I recall scripture saying..."Repent, Believe and be baptized..." in more than one place.
The Anabaptists often speak of faith alone, yet they do not truly know what that means. Though he speaks without using the words "works" or "merit", he indeed spouts the same synergistic inventions of the Pope, indeed, even worse than those of the Pope.



Tell me, what is a work? Works are not merely actions, but also decisions. Indeed, Christ makes no distictions between what we want to do and what we do, both are works, either good or evil.



His error is not that he says we must repent, but rather that he makes it a cause of salvation. He explains it thus:



Repentance + Faith + Baptism = Justification



He defines both repentance and baptism as acts required for salvation (I would also contest that he makes faith into a work as well, but I shall excuse that for the moment). With his explainations, these become works.



Faith + Works = Justification



Now the correct way would be this:



Faith = Justification



Or,



Faith = Justification + Works



I will continue this line of thought with the final comment.





Wow, a mockery. I see him saying its necessary which tells me he feels that it must be done as part of a process ordained and commanded. How is that a work or a mockery.
He creates a baptism that is nothing other than something you must do inorder to complete the process of justification. It is not a work of God, but a work of man. Just because he says it was ordained and commanded does not magically make it no longer a work, indeed not, as all good works are works which were ordained and commanded by God. This is indeed a mockery and a perversion of the Sacrament, as he has turned it into Law, when it was instituted as Gospel.



All to often Anabaptists equate the Word to the Bible. So, for them, the only means by which the word may be recieved is through preaching of the Word. Now, Scripture clearly teaches that Baptism saves, so there are two options for them: 1) Baptism is a required work for salvation, 2) Baptism is just a symbol and Scripture is only speaking symbolically here. This man takes the first option.

Both options look at baptism as an act of man for God.

What they do not realize is that the Word may also be recieved through the Sacraments, Baptism being one of them. As Paul said, the Word works through the water. With this understanding, Baptism ceases to be a work of man and is instead a gift of God, whether one comes on their own as an adult or is brought by others as a child. So, through baptism, one becomes regenerate, and recieves faith and the forgiveness of sins.


Believe, repent and be baptized. Im sorry, your order and scriptures order seem to be reversed. What am I missing here?
First thing, don't make the mistake of applying the rules of English to Greek, which does not imply a timeline.

Second, we must look at each particle individually.

Belief/faith: In Scripture this is spoken of in both a negative and positive sense. That is, faith saves and unbelief damns. Therefore, faith is a cause of salvation, it is required in order to be saved.

Unrepentance: This is only spoken of in the negative sense, that is, Scripture never speaks of repentance saving, but instead constantly warns of unrepentance damning.

Baptism: This is always spoken of in the positive sense, ie, "believe and be baptized", "baptism now saves you", etc. Never is it spoken that the lack of baptism damns.

Now, this is how it works:
1.) It is by faith alone, apart from works, that we are saved.
2.) Unrepentance destroys faith, drives out the Holy Spirit, and leads to damnation.
3.) Baptism is a means of grace, through which faith is created/strengthened.

So,
1.) Repentance is not a cause of our salvation, but rather, unrepentance is a cause of our damnation. So, we must be repentant, but it is not this repentance that saves us.
2.) It is not a human act of Baptism that is required for salvation, but rather faith, which is give by God. Baptism is a means through which the Holy Spirit works, and it is the Word that saves, not man's action. Much like one is not saved by hearing a sermon, but rather by the Word working through this in the heart of the hearer.
As such, one may be converted through another means of grace, and therefore be saved before he has the opportunity to be baptized.
 
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Qoheleth

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Lotar said:
So, through baptism, one

becomes regenerate, and recieves faith and the forgiveness of sins.
Thank you Brother for helping me out. I am understanding what you are saying even more clearly now. I have been to many churches and studied many theologies and can tell all of you here...Im confused. I try to let the Holy Spirit speak the scriptures clearly to me. I have resisted "joining" a church because of conflicting theology and wanting to be sincere in my faith and decisions here in the temporal.

I have one question about the statement above, If a person then is not able to baptised, have/will they then forfiet the regeneration and forgiveness of sins anf faith to apprehend these???
 
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Lotar

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Qoheleth said:
Thank you Brother for helping me out. I am understanding what you are saying even more clearly now. I have been to many churches and studied many theologies and can tell all of you here...Im confused. I try to let the Holy Spirit speak the scriptures clearly to me. I have resisted "joining" a church because of conflicting theology and wanting to be sincere in my faith and decisions here in the temporal.
No problem. This is a subject I love talking/writing about. :)


I have one question about the statement above, If a person then is not able to baptised, have/will they then forfiet the regeneration and forgiveness of sins anf faith to apprehend these???
I think you may have started writing before I corrected a typo at the end of my post. The answer is yes, one may recieve God's grace through other means, such as Scripture.
 
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Qoheleth

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I have one question about the statement above, If a person then is not able to baptised, have/will they then forfiet the regeneration and forgiveness of sins anf faith to apprehend these???
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I think you may have started writing before I corrected a typo at the end of my post. The answer is yes, one may recieve God's grace through other means, such as Scripture.
So, your saying yes, in this circumstance above, they will forfiet or not have the forgiveness of sins, faith and regeneration as you stated??

Baptism is a means of grace, through which faith is created/strengthened.
Lotar said:
As such, one may be converted through another means of grace, and therefore be saved before he has the opportunity to be baptized.
Okay then, one may have the remission/forgiveness of sins, regeneration and faith before he is baptised, right??

So many hear the gospel before they are baptised in fact that was the case in the majority in the New testament, so then they were baptised. Did they not have saving faith before they were baptised. Isnt that the reason they went to be baptised...they had faith?

Acoording to Lutheran teaching, take an adult that hears the word (Gospel) and is converted. Take me through the "steps" with explanations and what is happening according to scripture at each step as it applies to Gods part and any part of man at all and when, Please. It is as if Im understanding you and its making sense, then I loose it.
 
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Lotar

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Qoheleth said:
So, your saying yes, in this circumstance above, they will forfiet or not have the forgiveness of sins, faith and regeneration as you stated??
:doh: I mean yes you have faith, forgiveness of sins, etc. :doh:
 
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Qoheleth

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Acoording to Lutheran teaching, take an adult that hears the word (Gospel) and is converted. Take me through the "steps" with explanations and what is happening according to scripture at each step as it applies to Gods part and any part of man at all and when, Please. It is as if Im understanding you and its making sense, then I loose it.
If you dont mind, Im anxious...
 
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Qoheleth

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The same "preacher" that wrote what we are dicussing also made this statement below.

Thoughts??


The work effected by the Holy Spirit in the new birth is conversion. The whole process of conversion results from the influence of the Spirit. Our faith, repentance, change of heart, hatred of sin, love of God, turning to God in obedience--all are produced by the Spirit of the living God. The process of regeneration is begun, carried on, and consummated, by the Holy Spirit
 
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