All Denominations are Heresy

[AlexDTX]

"I disagree with your theology because my theology says so." There is a point where doctrine is actually wrong, which actually heresy.

I agree that is what most people think, and it is another way to say I don't want to talk to you anymore. Your last comment on doctrine brings up another question. What is sound doctrine? Personally, I don't think sound doctrine has anything to do with so much theological speculations, but rather refers to teaching that promotes the relationship and life of Christ in believers. Sound always means healthy. A sound mind and body are healthy minds and bodies.

 

[Albion]

Yes, I agree that is the common understanding. But what does Jesus care about? Unity in the spirit of Christ is more important to him, in my opinion, than doctrinal unity.

Your post challenges me to give this some thought, and I can't honestly imagine that institutional unity is more important to Christ than, say, knowing that he is the Son of God instead of a kindly rabbi who taught some good things or, for instance, that he actually did die and rose from the dead afterwards.

 

[AlexDTX]

So if someone just launches the accusation with no church having officially decreed it to be such, that means even less.

How is an organization "officially decreeing it" make it matter? All that means is the leaders of the organization call it heresy, or error, as the term is understood. It is like the Authorized Version of the Bible by King James. How is King James an authority? Yes, I know he had 70 translators work on the project, but all that means is he had 70 people work it out to his approval. His hubris was such that he needed his name in Bible, changing various Yaakov (Jabob) into James. He most certainly wanted all Christians under his rule to be obedient to him, so he emphasized obedience to governments. The Catholic Church has declared many things as heresy, but that does not make it so. Does the organization called the Roman Catholic Church exist in heaven? Is there a Pope in heaven? Of course not. All men called Popes, or vicars of Christ, don't need to exist when Christ is right there. They are merely men and brothers in the Lord if they had the new birth.

 

[Albion]

How is an organization "officially decreeing it" make it matter?

What I was saying there was that UNLESS a church makes a determination, it isn't a heresy. You have to be found guilty of a heresy like being found guilty of a crime in civil court; someone can't just say you're a heretic because he thinks so.

Even if there is a finding, it's a question as to whether that church has any credibility with you. But for certain, if there is no finding, anyone accusing you is just talking.

 

[Soyeong]

I have been called a heretic (by Catholics twice) with the implication that I have spoken in error. That is the generally accepted meaning of the term, but it is not the etymological meaning.

The Greek word translated as heresy in the New Testament is, hairesis, meaning “a choice” as in a group, thus implying “disunion”. It is derived from aihreomai which means "to take for one's self". It is also translated as “sect”. It does not mean error or being wrong.

Heresy began in the first century and we read Paul's rebuke to the Corinthians:

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.​

What then was the “same mind” and “same judgment” that Paul referred to? He tells us in the next chapter:

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.​

Yet as we continue reading his rebuke to the Corinthians he says:

1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?​

You can see people are already dividing into camps, (denominations) as they focus on the teaching, preaching and baptizing of the various servants of God.

So many people get on their high horse as the champion their pet doctrines which Paul calls in Romans “doubtful disputations” (Rom. 14:1). Apart from the deity of Christ and our need for salvation by his death and resurrection, everything else is doubtful disputations, or doctrines of men (Col. 2:22) or, worse, doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1). Regarding doctrines of demons we should contend for the faith (Jude 1:3) but regarding the doctrines of men and doubtful disputations we should not be carried about by varied and strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9).

So this is why I say all denominations are heresy, including Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic and the hundreds of Protestant and Independent organizations. Every denomination is a business franchise requiring adherence to their opinion of doctrines and worship. Christ is not divided. All believers who have the new birth through faith in the deity of Christ and his death and resurrection are brothers and sisters and members of his body and bride. What say ye?

It seems to me that both doctrinal error and division in the body have something to do with, because someone trying to force people to take sides over an error in doctrine. However, there are times where the Bible instructs us to cut someone off for the sake of the community, and it doesn't seem right to label the community as being heretics for doing that, but rather it is more like the person who is being cut off is forcing the hand of the community that would prefer to stay united. The issue still remains whether the person who was cut off was teaching correct doctrine because if those who are teaching false doctrine cut themselves off from those who are teaching true doctrine, then it is they who are the heretics instead. However, the existence of the vast majority of denominations has to do more with local autonomy than with differences in doctrine, though difference in doctrine do exist, yet many denominations with differences in doctrine are nevertheless still able to work together for a unified purpose. So I think heresy is more than just two denominations that interpret a verse differently and extends to sowing an us vs. them mentality.

To give an example, prior to joining my current congregation, they had run into problems with people who were openly voicing disagreeing with our rabbi taught and were forming factions within the congregation. Visitors would hear different things about what we believe based upon who they sat next to during the fellowship meal. So my rabbi did a series of sermons going over the basics of this is what beleive, this is why we believe it, this is what we do not believe, this is why we do not believe it, and then required all members to sign a statement of faith in regard to these issues. Those who were causing problems eventually left on their own, those who remained were all on the same page, the congregation went from being stagnant to flourishing again, and my rabbi holds that it was one of the best leadership decisions that he has ever made. In my mind, it was the people who were causing problems and forming factions, who were the heretics and not the rabbi for unifying the congregation and protecting them from false teachers by doing something that forced those people to make a decision to leave.

There needs to be a balance between truth and unity. If someone can't have fellowship with anyone who disagrees with them on any issue, then they will end up very lonely, but if someone is willing to have fellowship with false teachers, then they will end up very misled, neither of which is ideal. There is spiritual growth that comes only from fellowship with like-minded believers, spiritual growth that comes only from learning to get along with people that we disagree with, and spiritual growth that comes only from learning to diligently discern who false teachers are and rejecting them.

 

[Ken Rank]

What I was saying there was that UNLESS a church makes a determination, it isn't a heresy. You have to be found guilty of a heresy like being found guilty of a crime in civil court; someone can't just say you're a heretic because he thinks so.

But this is using the modern definition of the word. The church can decree that a teaching is in error and call it heresy but is it REALLY heresy? Not according to how that word is used in Scripture.

 

[Albion]

But this is using the modern definition of the word. The church can decree that a teaching is in error and call it heresy but is it REALLY heresy? Not according to how that word is used in Scripture.

I'm not so sure of that, but I'll listen to a presentation on the matter. When we say that heresy means walking apart or something like that, it's been meant since early in church history that the heretic is on his own with his erroneous beliefs, i.e. apart. When it comes to rival denominations, there weren't any that the typical heretic of early times went over to.

 

[Ken Rank]

I'm not so sure of that, but I'll listen to a presentation on the matter. When we say that heresy means walking apart or something like that, it's been meant since early in church history that the heretic is on his own with his erroneous beliefs, i.e. apart. When it comes to rival denominations, there weren't any that the typical heretic of early times went over to.

No, it has been used the way you (and most of the church) have used it since maybe 300AD. When you get back into the first and early second century... it meant to force, a sect, violence, and choice. Please go up to my first post in this thread... it might be the 3rd or 4th post overall. I shared the Thayer entry and then gave examples from the OT (Greek, LXX) and NT. Blessings.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

One might think that by posting this thread that I don't believe there should be denominations or organized religion. On the contrary I understand its good. If we are members of the body of Christ, not all members are the same. As Paul told the Corinthians, if all were an eye where then is the hearing? etc. Likewise, we all naturally gravitate towards like minded people for friendship. But to quote Stephen Stills, Christ wants us "to love the one your with" (although Stills probably meant to haves sex with the nearest girl, and I don't mean that!). But we are to love one another in all our differences. Indeed, I think God needs the differences to be able to have his life fully expressed. He needs the different ethnicities, and he needs the different functions of personalities. My point is the division caused by being closed minded to only your point of view. One can still disagree with others while not dismissing them out of hand as heretics.

I cleaned up my last post. My point is a charge of heresy is not meant to "dismiss" someone. It is suppose to something they consider seriously as something someone else is trying to tell them is destructive to their faith. If playing with fire potentially gets one burned, a person that cares about such a person would want to correct the air.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, I agree that is the common understanding. But what does Jesus care about? Unity in the spirit of Christ is more important to him, in my opinion, than doctrinal unity.

Saint Peter seems to be concerned about "destructive heresy" which given the stated belief of the early Church and that Apostles comment, seems consistent with the idea that we are talking about something much more than a simple difference of opinion or egos dividing people. The idea was a belief which is destructive to Christian faith. That is a personal matter and only becomes a unity issue if enough people willing to leave one group to start another over a belief said to be destructive to the faith of ALL Christians.

 

[Open Heart]

I have been called a heretic (by Catholics twice) with the implication that I have spoken in error.

I think these Catholics have spoken in error if in fact they called you personally a heretic. It takes more than voicing a heresy to make a person a heretic. You also have to spread the heresy in a way that affects a great deal of people. For example, if a famous professor at a university spreads a heresy in his lectures, he is a heretic. If an author of many popular books spreads a heresy, he is a heretic. But little Joe Schmoe who goes to church and happens to have his theology wrong is not a heretic.

Catholics believe that protestant churches are heretical, but that does NOT make protestants heretics. Certain things like Modalism, Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, are for example common heresies according to Catholics. But that doesn't make protestants heretics. Now John Calvin, who spread these heresies on a grand scale, is a heretic.

 

[Open Heart]

So this is why I say all denominations are heresy, including Catholicism

Catholicism cannot be lumped in with Protestant denominations. It never "broke off" from the original Church. It can trace itself back, via the unbroken chain of laying on of hands, all the way to the Church at Pentecost. The same can be said of the EO's andOO's. All these are true Churches and not denominations.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Catholicism cannot be lumped in with Protestant denominations. It never "broke off" from the original Church. It can trace itself back, via the unbroken chain of laying on of hands, all the way to the Church at Pentecost. The same can be said of the EO's andOO's. All these are true Churches and not denominations.

Interesting proposal tbh

 

[Albion]

Catholicism cannot be lumped in with Protestant denominations. It never "broke off" from the original Church. It can trace itself back, via the unbroken chain of laying on of hands, all the way to the Church at Pentecost. The same can be said of the EO's andOO's. All these are true Churches and not denominations.

And the Anglican, Armenian, Church of the East, and several others. But, in general usage, all self-governing church bodies are called denominations save only that some people call all the Lutheran churches or Methodist churches or Presbyterian churches a single denomination.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I have been called a heretic (by Catholics twice) with the implication that I have spoken in error. That is the generally accepted meaning of the term, but it is not the etymological meaning.

The Greek word translated as heresy in the New Testament is, hairesis, meaning “a choice” as in a group, thus implying “disunion”. It is derived from aihreomai which means "to take for one's self". It is also translated as “sect”. It does not mean error or being wrong.

Heresy began in the first century and we read Paul's rebuke to the Corinthians:

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


What then was the “same mind” and “same judgment” that Paul referred to? He tells us in the next chapter:

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


Yet as we continue reading his rebuke to the Corinthians he says:

1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


You can see people are already dividing into camps, (denominations) as they focus on the teaching, preaching and baptizing of the various servants of God.

So many people get on their high horse as the champion their pet doctrines which Paul calls in Romans “doubtful disputations” (Rom. 14:1). Apart from the deity of Christ and our need for salvation by his death and resurrection, everything else is doubtful disputations, or doctrines of men (Col. 2:22) or, worse, doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1). Regarding doctrines of demons we should contend for the faith (Jude 1:3) but regarding the doctrines of men and doubtful disputations we should not be carried about by varied and strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9).

So this is why I say all denominations are heresy, including Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic and the hundreds of Protestant and Independent organizations. Every denomination is a business franchise requiring adherence to their opinion of doctrines and worship. Christ is not divided. All believers who have the new birth through faith in the deity of Christ and his death and resurrection are brothers and sisters and members of his body and bride. What say ye?

I agree. What I notice in Christianity (and the language of the world in general, but it really matters in Christianity) is that the words - the abstract words in the bible - are being defined differently by many people. You mention the word "heresy" and how the popular use doesn't jibe with the biblical. Words like love, grace, justification, salvation and all of these spiritual concepts are all being understood differently, so it has become very difficult to even understand what people are actually meaning when they talk about biblical concepts. Most people use the words with the assumption that everyone is understanding the meaning of the words exactly the same way, when they're not. Thus causing a massive communication breakdown, which in turn causes doubtful disputes, and in turn division over language.

Now, look at the bible and what happened back in the beginning? Massive communication breakdown at Babel. The passage says "they could not understand one another's speech" and the very word "Babel" means "confounded" and of course we have the word "babble" which conveys that idea, talking without being able to understand the communication. Well, people may not know this, but the word "Babylon" is simply the English form of the name "Babel" : when you see the word "Babylon" in the bible it is specifying the kingdom called "Babel" which is of course the place symbolic of communication breakdown causing division.

Now I look at what Christianity has become and say with confidence, it is Babel: Christianity has become Babylon (indeed, even Great Babylon, or, Great Babel: because it is confounding and dividing the very body of Christ through massive communication breakdown which itself is emergent from constantly "lawyering" the letter instead of abiding in the Spirit: and so the apostle says, we are ministers of the Spirit and not the letter because lawyering and divided in the letter is death: 2 Corinthians 3:6): and when the Spirit says of Babylon "come out of her, My people" it is calling us to come out of all of this doubtful disputing, this lawyering and dividing, all based on "the letter" of the words (Romans 2:29, Romans 7:6) and come into unity in the Spirit (Ephesians 4:3)

It all reminds me of a quote that's quite true:

 

[Monk Brendan]

So this is why I say all denominations are heresy, including Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic and the hundreds of Protestant and Independent organizations. Every denomination is a business franchise requiring adherence to their opinion of doctrines and worship. Christ is not divided. All believers who have the new birth through faith in the deity of Christ and his death and resurrection are brothers and sisters and members of his body and bride. What say ye?

Forgive me, but you're full of baloney!

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

I have been called a heretic (by Catholics twice) with the implication that I have spoken in error. That is the generally accepted meaning of the term, but it is not the etymological meaning.

The Greek word translated as heresy in the New Testament is, hairesis, meaning “a choice” as in a group, thus implying “disunion”. It is derived from aihreomai which means "to take for one's self". It is also translated as “sect”. It does not mean error or being wrong.

Heresy began in the first century and we read Paul's rebuke to the Corinthians:

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.​

What then was the “same mind” and “same judgment” that Paul referred to? He tells us in the next chapter:

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.​

Yet as we continue reading his rebuke to the Corinthians he says:

1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?​

You can see people are already dividing into camps, (denominations) as they focus on the teaching, preaching and baptizing of the various servants of God.

So many people get on their high horse as the champion their pet doctrines which Paul calls in Romans “doubtful disputations” (Rom. 14:1). Apart from the deity of Christ and our need for salvation by his death and resurrection, everything else is doubtful disputations, or doctrines of men (Col. 2:22) or, worse, doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1). Regarding doctrines of demons we should contend for the faith (Jude 1:3) but regarding the doctrines of men and doubtful disputations we should not be carried about by varied and strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9).

So this is why I say all denominations are heresy, including Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic and the hundreds of Protestant and Independent organizations. Every denomination is a business franchise requiring adherence to their opinion of doctrines and worship. Christ is not divided. All believers who have the new birth through faith in the deity of Christ and his death and resurrection are brothers and sisters and members of his body and bride. What say ye?

Exactly!!!!!!!!! I can't agree more.

 

[timewerx]

Yes, I agree that is the common understanding. But what does Jesus care about? Unity in the spirit of Christ is more important to him, in my opinion, than doctrinal unity.

I'm afraid, the answer is no.

Matthew 10:35-35
Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.…

 

[AlexDTX]

What I was saying there was that UNLESS a church makes a determination, it isn't a heresy. You have to be found guilty of a heresy like being found guilty of a crime in civil court; someone can't just say you're a heretic because he thinks so.

Even if there is a finding, it's a question as to whether that church has any credibility with you. But for certain, if there is no finding, anyone accusing you is just talking.

What you are saying, then, is that if a group which is already separate from other groups, thus a division in of itself and heresy according to the Greek meaning, calls someone a heretic, then that means they are a division from that group. Who is to say that the person called a heretic from that group may actually be closer to the Spirit of God?

 

[AlexDTX]

Saint Peter seems to be concerned about "destructive heresy" which given the stated belief of the early Church and that Apostles comment, seems consistent with the idea that we are talking about something much more than a simple difference of opinion or egos dividing people. The idea was a belief which is destructive to Christian faith. That is a personal matter and only becomes a unity issue if enough people willing to leave one group to start another over a belief said to be destructive to the faith of ALL Christians.

What is a destructive faith in your opinion?