All about your doctrine....

[Rick Otto]

God is not reactive.
I'll do ya better later, Gotta run for now, but I found this:


"Analysis of total depravity, arising out of Scripture, witnessed to by countless events in history, and confirmed in an honest appraisal of personal experience after one has received God’s grace in renewal, led to a common creedal formulation in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. These creeds, as Shedd put it, “never shrank from affirming that the ultimate form of sin is a nature, that this nature is guilty, and that the wrath of God justly rests upon every individual of the human race because of it.”31 Protestant thought thus was echoing Paul’s when he said men are “by nature children of wrath.”32 The Belgic Confession states that man “willfully subjected himself to sin” and thereby “separated himself from God” and “corrupted his whole nature.”33 This activity by man was so “vile and abominable in the sight of God that it is sufficient to condemn all mankind.”34 The canons of the Synod of Dordt are no less specific when they declare that man “entailed on himself blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity, and perverseness of judgment,” and “became wicked, rebellious, and obdurate in heart and will, and impure in all his affections.”35 Nevertheless, man “retains some knowledge of God . . . and of the difference between good and evil.” This knowledge, as in Calvin, is not sufficient to bring man to a saving knowledge of God and, indeed, cannot even be used aright in the ordinary affairs of life. Man, in fact, corrupts this light and “holds it back in unrighteousness.”36

From here:
http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Gregory.html

 

[Godzchild]

Ok well I think I've got it now. Thank you all for educating me. I don't feel like such an ignorameous now. You were all very patient with me and I thank you for that.

Bless you's all!

 

[Rick Otto]

I thought for sure I'd need to get some more material on this for ya. It is the hardest part for me to articulate - why man is guilty of sin, even though he is predestined.
Actualy you could cut through all the sophistication & just say (at risk of blowing minds) "because his guilt & individual responsibility are predestined (created) too.
As clay, we get in trouble when we presume to angrily say "Why did You make me this way!" Because it questions His unquestionably good motives.


Anyway, I wanted to add one more thing in regards to this part of the above excerpt:
"Nevertheless, man “retains some knowledge of God . . . and of the difference between good and evil.”
Romans 1:20 is the verification of that statement:
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I feel it is important because it is one thing that DID survive the fall, but isn't enough to save, just enough to convict - it isn't a "redeeming quality"; but having this innate knowledge can tempt us to believe that we must have some redeeming quality(we're SO perceptive), and we immediately sieze upon our will (motives) because it is so appealing to believe we mean well & were "born innocent" when in fact, we are born guilty - spiritualy dead. So of course we need to be "born again".

And finaly, Romans 1:20 explains why & how Psalm 53:1 is so true:


Ps 53:1 - The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

THANKS FOR ASKIN"!!!

 

[reformedfan]

the Boettenr book is excellent, so is the book, "Hard Chairs, Easy Words" by Doug Wilson.

Oh no, wait, it's called "Easy Chairs, Hard Words", buit the content is quite the former!

 

[JamesMichael]

All people, everywhere, will eventually be redeemed.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

All people, everywhere, will eventually be redeemed.

What a relief! That means that I don't have to fear God in the least! Sanctification is null and void, the justice of God is no longer a factor and we worship a paper tiger of a god!

Seriously, can you support that quote with scripture? A verse or two won't cut it if you want to challenge positions that have been held for 2000+ years.

 

[JamesMichael]

A verse or two won't cut it if you want to challenge positions that have been held for 2000+ years.

Now that statement is the most hillarious comment by a calvinist that I've read in a long time on any Christian forum I have ever visited!

A Calvinist asking for more than 2 scriptures as Biblical evidence!

Hoooooray!

If one, or two scriputres are not sufficient, then how can any scriputres be sufficient?

If one part of Gods word is no longer true, none of it is......

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

If one, or two scriputres are not sufficient, then how can any scriputres be sufficient?

If one part of Gods word is no longer true, none of it is......

Agreed. However, you need to interpret scripture with scripture and mind the whole counsel of God. If you take one verse out of context, but ignore the wealth of verses that point you in the correct direction you are not properly handling the word of God and you are mocking His name.

For your own sake, I suggest you evaluate that initial comment for accuracy. Also on behalf of the mods, I ask that you not try to make this into a debate forum or a place where you can lovingly spew out hateful things about Calvinists within Semper Reformanda.

 

[JamesMichael]

Agreed. However, you need to interpret scripture with scripture and mind the whole counsel of God. If you take one verse out of context, but ignore the wealth of verses that point you in the correct direction you are not properly handling the word of God and you are mocking His name.

For your own sake, I suggest you evaluate that initial comment for accuracy. Also on behalf of the mods, I ask that you not try to make this into a debate forum or a place where you can lovingly spew out hateful things about Calvinists within Semper Reformanda.

Put a little sweetener in that coffee cup, no need for you to go on the offensive.

I said nothing hateful about a person, maybe a doctrine, but, I can't say that I feel the need to feel any guilt about that.

But if I offended you personally, then for that I do apologize, BUt I won't apologize for feeling no love for a doctrinme I believe is not Biblically sound.

I still found it to be very amusing though that a Calvinist would ask for only one or two scritpures, most of the time Calvinsits demand the enitre Bible to prove any other Biblical teachings credibility, while their own doctrine is not based on a satisfactory use of all of Gods word.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I would have agreed with you a couple years ago. Then I did read my Bible and found that it disagreed with many of the things I was taught as a child. Imagine my surprise when I finished it and found that asking Jesus into your heart was nowhere to be found in all 66 books!

I was closing my reading of the Bible and was told about this doctrine that says that man is depraved and unfit to approach God, but in His mercy He saves some for His purposes and not ours. I was shocked, but I had found untruths from the Arminian teaching I was given and knew that I could only rely on the council of the Bible. That is why I am Calvinist. I took the Bible at face value and stopped interjecting my own beliefs over it.

Enough of that. Let's get to the only doctrine you have presented. I'll repeat your words:

All people, everywhere, will eventually be redeemed.

This is the topic you have brought up. What do you plan on supporting this statement with?

 

[JamesMichael]

I would have agreed with you a couple years ago. Then I did read my Bible and found that it disagreed with many of the things I was taught as a child. Imagine my surprise when I finished it and found that asking Jesus into your heart was nowhere to be found in all 66 books!

I was closing my reading of the Bible and was told about this doctrine that says that man is depraved and unfit to approach God, but in His mercy He saves some for His purposes and not ours. I was shocked, but I had found untruths from the Arminian teaching I was given and knew that I could only rely on the council of the Bible. That is why I am Calvinist. I took the Bible at face value and stopped interjecting my own beliefs over it.

Enough of that. Let's get to the only doctrine you have presented. I'll repeat your words:

All people, everywhere, will eventually be redeemed.

This is the topic you have brought up. What do you plan on supporting this statement with?

Actually it was meant only as sarcasm. I believe it is Gods will for everyone to at least hear the Gospel message, and be offered the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Lord and savioe, however it is certainly true that not all people will choose to accept the offer of salvation made through a presentation of the Gospel message to them, and so it is alos trtue that not everyone everywhere will eventually be saved.

BUT it is also certainly not Gods will that only a few, and no more be saved, limitted atonement is a far too feeble theory conceived by the limitted intelectual capabilities of theological thugs.

As for your personal defense of Calvinist beliefs, I was at one time in my own life, a very profound believer, promoter, and determined defender of the Calvinist doctrine, then I really read, and thoroughly studied the Entire Bible and found Calvins teachings to be extremely lacking in Biblical integrity.

I had been brain washed by denominational leaders of the denominational church I attened to blindly accept everything they promoted as Biblical truth simply because they said it was true, how great is the light revealed to those who truly seek find Gods truth revealed to them by God, outside mans worldly influenced theological teachings.

I mean no personal offense to you, or any other person, I just cannot accept or defend a doctrine which portrays God as an unloving, unmerciful, unforgiving, unkind, being who is only concerned about a specific few.

If God only cares about that specific few, then the word of God must be changed to show that, and if it were to be changed to show that, there would be very little left of it.

The body of Christ is a living portrait of Jesus that the world outside the body of Christ looks on everyday, and we are to be influenced through this doctrine within our own ranks that God loves only a few and not all?

Should John have written For God So Loved These Few Only, that he gave his only beggotten son that if these few only believe, these few only will have the opportuinty to be saved and have everlasting life?

Or should Paul have written, If these few only will call on the name of the Lord, these few only will be saved?

Or should Paul have written to timothy: that it is only Gods will that a select few be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

And of course Peter must have been suffering from severe indigestion when he said it was not Gods will that any should persih, and Peter was certainly not speaking about the lost when he wrote that, in fact I believe he must certainly have not only been suffering from severe indigestion, but he was most certainly writing in his sleep.

What about the last thing Jesus said to his disciples just before he ascended into heaven, Go ye into this specific region of this limitted poirtion of the world and preach the gospel only to this select few individuals whose identiy I will reveal to you alone, and these few individual will be the one and only ones who will ever be saved.

And of course we must now be aware of the fact that the Gospel does not have to be preached to all nations of the world, there are only the select few who must hear that message, and it is most probable that not all people in every nation are to be afforded the opportunity to hear that message.

Well you take it as you wish, no personal offense intended, it is just a very true fact that calvins doctrine is an extremely sarcastic misrepresentation of the word of God at best, and at worst, a very disgusting affront to the cross of Christ.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

You are making the exact same claims that the last troll made. Just as before, you are not supporting these claims with any scripture or even any confessions that you must be familiar with according to what you have said. You twist your questions into false accusations of a doctrine you obviously do not understand. If you are like the last troll who just recently left, you do not want to understand anything but only want to promote discord and pick fights with others.

You asked Jon in another thread how he could be so unloving. I ask you the same thing for the reasons expressed above.

 

[JamesMichael]

You are making the exact same claims that the last troll made. Just as before, you are not supporting these claims with any scripture or even any confessions that you must be familiar with according to what you have said. You twist your questions into false accusations of a doctrine you obviously do not understand. If you are like the last troll who just recently left, you do not want to understand anything but only want to promote discord and pick fights with others.

You asked Jon in another thread how he could be so unloving. I ask you the same thing for the reasons expressed above.

How could I have ever been so ignorant, well it's no wonder, seeing as how I am such a low class no account unredeemable sinner who has absolutely no hope of ever being a partaker of salvations gift.

I must say that I am truly so sorry to have offended you so greatly.

Well alrighty then your most high and Holy lordship you win, you are absolutely right, each and everything you believe is the one and only absolutely Biblically sound Biblical teaching that has ever existed or will ever exist.

No other persons anywhere will ever have the opportunity to be redeemed, only those who will accept your doctrine will ever spend eternity in heaven.

God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross in order that only you, and your denominations members might have the absolute assurance of eternal life.

Everyone else has no hope.

Does that satisfy you?

Love?

Love is just a vulgar 4 letter curse word.

 

[Jon_]

How could I have ever been so ignorant, well it's no wonder, seeing as how I am such a low class no account unredeemable sinner who has absolutely no hope of ever being a partaker of salvations gift.

I must say that I am truly so sorry to have offended you so greatly.

Well alrighty then your most high and Holy lordship you win, you are absolutely right, each and everything you believe is the one and only absolutely Biblically sound Biblical teaching that has ever existed or will ever exist.

No other persons anywhere will ever have the opportunity to be redeemed, only those who will accept your doctrine will ever spend eternity in heaven.

God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross in order that only you, and your denominations members might have the absolute assurance of eternal life.

Everyone else has no hope.

Does that satisfy you?

Love?

Love is just a vulgar 4 letter curse word.

Oddly enough, even though this is littered with error, it's curiously closer to the truth than you've ever been. Perhaps you're on the right road. I suggest you continue to affirm the exact opposite of what you believe. That should help to correct many things.

When you are quite prepared to hear rational arguments and sound Biblical instruction, return to us and we will try to disciple you. Until then, my prayers go out for you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JamesMichael]

Oddly enough, even though this is littered with error, it's curiously closer to the truth than you've ever been. Perhaps you're on the right road. I suggest you continue to affirm the exact opposite of what you believe. That should help to correct many things.

When you are quite prepared to hear rational arguments and sound Biblical instruction, return to us and we will try to disciple you. Until then, my prayers go out for you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Well alrighty then your most high and Holy King of kings and Lord of lords, who is truly supreme God over all things created, I'm all ears, please, oh please I beg of you on bended knees, please do present the one and only absolutely sound Biblical Gospel truth to this Spiritually ignorant rotten no account disgusting hell bound heathen.

BTW where is your congregations campaign headquarters located, how do I go about getting elected, or is the campaign finished?

 

[Jon_]

Well alrighty then your most high and Holy King of kings and Lord of lords, who is truly supreme God over all things created, I'm all ears, please, oh please I beg of you on bended knees, please do present the one and only absolutely sound Biblical Gospel truth to this Spiritually ignorant rotten no account disgusting hell bound heathen.

BTW where is your congregations campaign headquarters located, how do I go about getting elected, or is the campaign finished?

Like I said, when you're ready to hear the truth, please come back. Until then, my prayers go out for you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JamesMichael]

Like I said, when you're ready to hear the truth, please come back. Until then, my prayers go out for you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Hey Jon I am being sincere, I am far ignorant to ever hope to know anything about any hing, you are far more inteligent, Spiritually, or otherwise than I could ever hope to be!

I really do want you to teach me the one and only truly Biblically sound way that I might be saved.

You were certainly chosen by God as his one and only instrument of Biblical truth!

YES Jon, I am certain now that you are the keeper of the key to salvation and it is only through your Biblical knowledge and understandinmg that I can ever hope to be redeemed from the awful demonic bondage I am now ensnared in, please Jon please teach this pitiful disgusting heathen swine me Gods eternal truth

 

[Jon_]

Hey Jon I am being sincere, I am far ignorant to ever hope to know anything about any hing, you are far more inteligent, Spiritually, or otherwise than I could ever hope to be!

I am saddened to hear that you could never hope to be more intelligent or spiritual than I am. I am such a pathetic standard to which to strive that I scarcely consider myself knowledgable of anything. It is only by the grace of God that I am a Christian and that I know what I do. For that, I owe him and him alone the thanks and glory.

I really do want you to teach me the one and only truly Biblically sound way that I might be saved.

Let's start with your objections to the five points of Calvinist soteriology, then.

1) Total Depravity

Man is completely corrupted by sin and will not willing believe in God because his heart only desires evil.

2) Unconditional Election

Because man will not naturally have faith, God cannot choose his elect based on foreseen faith. Because mankind is universally sinful, there is nothing pleasing in natural man to God that would serve as criteria for him choosing certain men. Instead, God chooses who he will according to his own divine and righteous standards. The reasons he chooses those he does are hidden from us. He has not revealed why he choses specific individuals.

3) Limited Atonement

Because Christ's sacrifice really does accomplish redemption for the elect and does not simply make it possible, and because only the elect will have faith, Christ's atonement is effective for only the elect, although it is potent enough for an infinite number of men.

4) Irresistable Grace

Because God is omnipotent, men are unable to resist the grace of regeneration worked in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. When God chooses to regenerate an individual, he does so. He is not frustrated by their free will because man's will cannot oppose God's.

5) Perserverance of the Saints

Those that God has chosen, justified, and redeemed, he also perserves, meaning that he holds them in faith for the length of their days. While they stumble and fall, they will not be utterly cast down, for the Lord will uphold them with his hands. Those that God has effectually called will perservere in faith until the end and will be raised and glorified with Christ in the end times.

You were certainly chosen by God as his one and only instrument of Biblical truth!

No. Not one and only. I am certainly his instrument, though.

YES Jon, I am certain now that you are the keeper of the key to salvation and it is only through your Biblical knowledge and understandinmg that I can ever hope to be redeemed from the awful demonic bondage I am now ensnared in, please Jon please teach this pitiful disgusting heathen swine me Gods eternal truth

This would amount to Gnostic heresy. I am not the "keeper of the key to salvation," that title belongs to Christ alone. To him belongs the praise, power, and glory. I am but an humble, unprofitable servant, doing only what is my duty, and that very poorly. As Job says, I am a worm, one deserving of God's heel. But for love of his Son Jesus Christ and for love of me, God has accepted Christ's sacrifice for my sins as payment for the debt I had incurred. For that a temporary life of temporal service could never pay, but I do what I am enabled to do in his name. For it is truly his love, grace, and mercy that sustains me. Without him, I am nothing.

That alone is what you will receive from me, brother. My cause is not to deceive you, but to show you the perfect and amazing love of God. My cause is to show you the sound doctrine of Scripture for we are commanded to love God with, among other things, our minds. Knowing God is a necessary part of faithful and obedient Christian living. In this, I would seek to disciple you according to the truths of the Word of God.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JamesMichael]

I am saddened to hear that you could never hope to be more intelligent or spiritual than I am. I am such a pathetic standard to which to strive that I scarcely consider myself knowledgable of anything. It is only by the grace of God that I am a Christian and that I know what I do. For that, I owe him and him alone the thanks and glory.


Let's start with your objections to the five points of Calvinist soteriology, then.

1) Total Depravity

Man is completely corrupted by sin and will not willing believe in God because his heart only desires evil.

2) Unconditional Election

Because man will not naturally have faith, God cannot choose his elect based on foreseen faith. Because mankind is universally sinful, there is nothing pleasing in natural man to God that would serve as criteria for him choosing certain men. Instead, God chooses who he will according to his own divine and righteous standards. The reasons he chooses those he does are hidden from us. He has not revealed why he choses specific individuals.

3) Limited Atonement

Because Christ's sacrifice really does accomplish redemption for the elect and does not simply make it possible, and because only the elect will have faith, Christ's atonement is effective for only the elect, although it is potent enough for an infinite number of men.

4) Irresistable Grace

Because God is omnipotent, men are unable to resist the grace of regeneration worked in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. When God chooses to regenerate an individual, he does so. He is not frustrated by their free will because man's will cannot oppose God's.

5) Perserverance of the Saints

Those that God has chosen, justified, and redeemed, he also perserves, meaning that he holds them in faith for the length of their days. While they stumble and fall, they will not be utterly cast down, for the Lord will uphold them with his hands. Those that God has effectually called will perservere in faith until the end and will be raised and glorified with Christ in the end times.


No. Not one and only. I am certainly his instrument, though.


This would amount to Gnostic heresy. I am not the "keeper of the key to salvation," that title belongs to Christ alone. To him belongs the praise, power, and glory. I am but an humble, unprofitable servant, doing only what is my duty, and that very poorly. As Job says, I am a worm, one deserving of God's heel. But for love of his Son Jesus Christ and for love of me, God has accepted Christ's sacrifice for my sins as payment for the debt I had incurred. For that a temporary life of temporal service could never pay, but I do what I am enabled to do in his name. For it is truly his love, grace, and mercy that sustains me. Without him, I am nothing.

That alone is what you will receive from me, brother. My cause is not to deceive you, but to show you the perfect and amazing love of God. My cause is to show you the sound doctrine of Scripture for we are commanded to love God with, among other things, our minds. Knowing God is a necessary part of faithful and obedient Christian living. In this, I would seek to disciple you according to the truths of the Word of God.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

OK Jon, now please don't get offended by this, BUT, I must point out to you that you, among others here in these forums, have constantly demanded scriptrues to prove other peoples beliefs outside your own, and yet in this post I saw not even ONE scripture to support yours.

If you want me to be completley fair about considering the Biblical validity your beliefs you must also present valid Biblical evidence to supprot it's scriptural integrity.

And if that proof is to be entirely sound your posts must alos deal with any other Biblical passages which might in anyway contradict your beliefs, God is not a liar, if he said it, it is settled forever, he does not contradict himself.

 

[Jon_]

OK Jon, now please don't get offended by this, BUT, I must point out to you that you, among others here in these forums, have constantly demanded scriptrues to prove other peoples beliefs outside your own, and yet in this post I saw not even ONE scripture to support yours.

If you want me to be completley fair about considering the Biblical validity your beliefs you must also present valid Biblical evidence to supprot it's scriptural integrity.

Total Depravity:

(Rom. 3:10-20 AV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15) Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16) Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17) And the way of peace have they not known:
18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
​

Unconditional Election:

(Rom. 9:11 AV) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
​

Limited Atonement:

(Matt. 1:21 AV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
​

Irresistable Grace:

(Is. 55:11 AV) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
​

Perseverance of the Saints:

(Ps. 37:23-24 AV) The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24) Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
​

And if that proof is to be entirely sound your posts must alos deal with any other Biblical passages which might in anyway contradict your beliefs, God is not a liar, if he said it, it is settled forever, he does not contradict himself.

It is upon you to show that any passages contradict these because I do not know of any.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon