All about your doctrine....

[Godzchild]

Hi I'm seriously here to ask questions re:calvinism

I have actually never heard of this movement till I started posting on Christian forums (yes I live under a rock ) As I started posting on said forums I was accused of being a calvinist once or twice adn I had no idea what they were on about LOL

So now I'm here to ask about your doctrine and what it's all about.

So far, I've gleaned from this thread that you guys believe that we are predestined and elected by God, having foreknown who would choose to be HIS and who would not? Would that be correct?

 

[Jon_]

You are indeed correct that one aspect of Calvinism is predestination. I should clarify that we believe predestination is done completely at God's will and not based on any merit in the elect. That is, all theologies acknowledge predestination in one form or another. They have to because the Bible explicitly uses this word in a number of places. No other theology acknowledges that predestination is based solely on God's choice, though. They all insist that we must first believe before God chooses us, which is not what the Bible teaches.

That usually leads to an host of other questions.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Godzchild]

They all insist that we must first believe before God chooses us, which is not what the Bible teaches.

But if God knows who is going to choose him in advance...wouldn't it be safe to assume that God chooses us based on his foreknowledge?

 

[Jon_]

But if God knows who is going to choose him in advance...wouldn't it be safe to assume that God chooses us based on his foreknowledge?

That would only be true if men were capable of choosing God without him first choosing them.

There are two ways to show this to be impossible: philosophically and theologically. I'll start with the first.

God is omnipotent and completely sovereign. That means that he is all-powerful and that he is completely and totally in control of all things everywhere: even our own choices. Now, if it were not true that God is in control of everything, including our choices, he would not be sovereign. If he were not able to prevent us from doing something, or able to make us do something, then he would not be omnipotent. So, by virtue of God's omnipotence and sovereignty, we do not have unmitigated free will. Our will is always subject to God's. He alone has truly free will.

Because of this, even if we were to choose God, he would first have to "approve" of that choice. He would have to be willing it would happen. Take note of what this means. God must first choose to allow us to choose him before we can choose him. Now, if God chooses to allow us to choose him, then we must choose him because he has chosen to allow it. Because God is sovereign and omnipotent, if he chooses to allow us to choose him, then we must choose him because he willed that we choose him. If he were to will us to choose him and we didn't, then that would make God not sovereign. It would also make him not omniscient (because, we would postulate, he could not see that we would not choose him given the opportunity to do so). Basically, everything that God chooses to do will come to pass. If God chooses to allow us to choose him, we will choose him. Therefore, salvation is based on God's choice, not man's.

The Holy Scriptures also make this same argument, but in much greater detail. The Scriptures tell us precisely why we need God to choose us, why he chose us, what he did for us, how he did it, and what his promise is regarding it. There is an handy acrostic that we use to spell out the five defining doctrines of Calvinist soteriology (the study of salvation):

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

TULIP. Predestination is completely summed up in these.

Total depravity teaches that all men everywhere are completely corrupted by sin. There is nothing in him that is good or righteous (Rom 3:10, 12). He is a completely fallen creature and is incapable of loving God (Rom. 8:7). He is a spiritual corpse (Col. 2:13). Because he is spiritually dead, he cannot hear or accept the offer of the Gospel (John 3:20). The things of the Gospel are spiritual, and those who are spiritually dead cannot discern them (1 Cor. 2:14).

Unconditional election says that God has chosen his elect according to his good pleasure and not on any grounds or merit of his elect. God has chosen us because he loves us and desires to show his grace and mercy toward us. There is absolutely nothing we can do to earn this. He bestows it upon us without any requisite--without any condition.

Limited atonement typically makes people squirm, but for no good reason. It asserts that Jesus's death on the cross has accomplished everything that it was intended to do: to redeem the elect. Our Lord did not die to make "salvation possible." His sacrifice was real and effective and he really did save those chosen by his Father through his death. This consequentially means that Jesus's death is not effective for those who do not believe in him. For them, his sacrifice does not mean anything because they have refused to hear the Gospel.

Irresistable grace is the act of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. If you remember back to total depravity, we saw that all men are corpses and are incapable of hearing the Gospel, much less accepting it. Before we can accept the Gospel, we must be born again--regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In keeping with unconditional election, this divine grace is without merit on the part of the person. Remember, he is just a dead man walking. He is worthless, there is nothing redeeming in him. God regenerates him because he loves him and desires to show him mercy. Because he is a corpse, he is also not capable of fighting back. God's grace is irresistable, both because man is dead in sins and not capable of resisting, and also because God is omnipotent and sovereign. When man's will and God's will collide, man loses.

Perserverance of the saints is God's promise to always hold us in his arms and sustain us through his mercy. God's Holy Spirit is continually at work in us, sanctifying us and enabling us to defeat our human nature through the blood of Christ. God will not allow us to fall away, nor will he condemn us again for our sins. They are covered for all time by Jesus's sacrifice. True faith will not fall into apostasy and will never forsake God because he will never let it.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[oworm]

But if God knows who is going to choose him in advance...wouldn't it be safe to assume that God chooses us based on his foreknowledge?

That would be the Arminian view which is in direct opposition to Calvanism. God's foreknowledge isn't based on the decisions of men. It is based on his predestined purpose of his own will. Everything hangs on the doctrine of God's sovereignty,which teaches us that God is absolutely sovereign in all the affairs of his creation.

 

[Rick Otto]

lol, Welcome to Semper Reformanda, Godz!
Just lurk & browse around. There are plenty of already asked questions you can learn from, but don't be shy to ask more. We learn doctrine better by articulating it ourselves .

 

[CCWoody]

But if God knows who is going to choose him in advance...wouldn't it be safe to assume that God chooses us based on his foreknowledge?

I'll bite...

Foreknowledge and Predestination

ROMANS 8: 28 - 30
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is the Truth of Scripture, evidenced clearly enough for all to see in what has been called "The Golden Chain of Predestination" in Romans 8: 28 - 30:

God's Foreknowledge of the Eternal Destiny of Men is NOT BASED on His Predestination.
God's Predestination of the Eternal Destiny of Men is BASED UPON His Foreknowledge.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."

No one can deny that those whom God has Predestined as to their Everlasting Destiny, He first Foreknew as to their Salvation. The exact number, and the every name, of every individual of whom God has Predestined to be called, and justified, and sanctified, and glorified, these very same ones He first Foreknew that He would Save.

The question is not whether God's Predestination of the Saints as to their ultimate Glorification is, or is not, based upon His Foreknowledge as to their Salvation. God has Predestinated based upon His Foreknowledge, that is certain enough.

The Question is this, and this specifically: ON WHAT BASIS has God Foreknown those whom He would Predestine??

• The Answer given by some, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of their actions towards Him.
• The Answer given by others, is that God has Foreknown the Salvation of His Elect based upon His Foreknowledge of His Own actions towards them.

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

 

[Elderone]

Godzchild

One of the best books I have read on Predestination is "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner. Here is the table of contents.

I. Introduction

SECTION I

II. Statement of the Doctirne
III. God Has a Plan
IV. The Sovereignty of God
V. The Providence of God
VI. The Foreknowledge of God
VII. Outline of Systems
VIII. The Scriptures are the Final Authority
By Which Systems are to be Judged
IX. A Warning Against Undue Speculation

SECTION II

The Five Points of Calvinism

X. Total Inability
XI. Unconditional Election
XII. Limited Atonement
XIII. Efficacious Grace
XIV. The Perseverance of the Saints


SECTION III

Objections Commonly Urged Against the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination

XV. 1. That It Is Fatalism
XVI. 2. That It Is Inconsistent With the Free Agency
And Moral Responsibility of Man
XVII. 3. That It Makes God the Author of Sin
XVIII. 4. That It Discourages All Motives To Exertion
XIX. 5. That It Represents God As A Respecter Of Persons,
Or as Unjustly Partial
XX. 6. That It Is Unfavorable to Good Morality
XXI. 7. That it Precludes A Sincere Offer of The
Gospel To the Non-Elect
XXII. 8. That It Contradicts The Universalistic Scripture Passages


SECTION IV

XXIII. Salvation By Grace
XXIV. Personal Assurance That One is Among The Elect
XXV. Predestination In The Physical World
XXVI. A Comparison With The Mohammeden Doctrine of Predestination


SECTION V

XXVII. The Practical Importance Of The Doctrine


SECTION VI

XXVIII. Calvinism In History
Appendix
Index of Subjects
Index of Authors
Bibliography

It is an easy to read and understand 440 pages.

It is a very worthwhile addition to any Christians library.

 

[Godzchild]

God must first choose to allow us to choose him before we can choose him.

Why would he allow us to choose him? Is there something he forsees in us that warrants that choosing?

For them, his sacrifice does not mean anything because they have refused to hear the Gospel.

Yes but if he didn't allow them to hear and act on the gospel and choose him then it's hardly their fault is it?

Before we can accept the Gospel, we must be born again--regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In keeping with unconditional election, this divine grace is without merit on the part of the person.

I do believe that the Holy spirit leads them and enables them to hear but I don't know about them being born again by the spirit that makes them hear. Wouldn't it be the other way round?

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

I'm not sure but I THINK that's what I was trying to say. But I'll elaborate to be sure (mainly for my own understanding) Are you saying that say Joe Brown would one day choose Christ as his Lord...God foresaw this so enabled him to hear the gospel. However Jack Black would NOT choose Christ as Lord so, knowing this, God chooses not to call him at all. Is this what you're saying?

 

[Jon_]

Why would he allow us to choose him? Is there something he forsees in us that warrants that choosing?

No, not at all. That was precisely my point. God must choose us.

Yes but if he didn't allow them to hear and act on the gospel and choose him then it's hardly their fault is it?

Is it God's fault that they rejected the Gospel? Or is it their fault? Who is the sinner? Who is the God-hater? If they hate God and want nothing to do with him, then is he not simply allowing them to do so? Who denied whom?

The sinner is fully responsible for his unbelief. And it is indeed his own unbelief because God does not cause anyone to disbelieve.

I do believe that the Holy spirit leads them and enables them to hear but I don't know about them being born again by the spirit that makes them hear. Wouldn't it be the other way round?

Actually, the Bible says that it is not. Regeneration precedes justification.

(Eph. 2:1-2 AV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
​

The Apostle Paul shows here that regeneration (quickening) comes while the elect are still dead in sin. Through the Holy Spirit, we are born again and our spiritual nature is transformed. God then gives us faith in his Son, so that we might be saved:

(Eph. 2:8 AV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

​

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Godzchild]

No, not at all. That was precisely my point. God must choose us.

Does he base that on his forknowledge of us though?

Is it God's fault that they rejected the Gospel? Or is it their fault? Who is the sinner? Who is the God-hater? If they hate God and want nothing to do with him, then is he not simply allowing them to do so? Who denied whom?

The sinner is fully responsible for his unbelief. And it is indeed his own unbelief because God does not cause anyone to disbelieve.

But if God didn't allow them to hear the gospel in the first place then what, exactly are they rejecting? Hardly their fault if they were not allowed to hear it.

Actually, the Bible says that it is not. Regeneration precedes justification.

(Eph. 2:1-2 AV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


​

The Apostle Paul shows here that regeneration (quickening) comes while the elect are still dead in sin. Through the Holy Spirit, we are born again and our spiritual nature is transformed. God then gives us faith in his Son, so that we might be saved:

(Eph. 2:8 AV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

Hmm I'm not sure about that part. I know that the Holy Spirit gives us the desire and the faith etc. But we need to repent and come to Christ first though right? And believe in him for us to be quickened by the Holy Spirit?




​

 

[CCWoody]

I'm not sure but I THINK that's what I was trying to say. But I'll elaborate to be sure (mainly for my own understanding) Are you saying that say Joe Brown would one day choose Christ as his Lord...God foresaw this so enabled him to hear the gospel. However Jack Black would NOT choose Christ as Lord so, knowing this, God chooses not to call him at all. Is this what you're saying?

Not at all. What I am saying is that "Joe Brown" would one day choose Christ as his Lord BECAUSE God chose to do something to "enable" him to hear the gospel and believe. However "Jack Black" would not choose Christ BECAUSE God choose not to call him at all.

Answer these questions as true false questions as it pertains toMatthew 11: 20 - 27:

God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
TRUE or FALSE?

God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
TRUE or FALSE?

God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.
TRUE or FALSE?

you see Election has absolutely nothing to with man. God knew of certain miracles which would result in certain people freely repenting and God knew that the non-performance of those miracles would result in their freely not repenting. It is, therefore, a matter of God's choice to perform or not perform miracles at his pleasure which results in his perfectly foreknown response of men.

 

[Godzchild]

Not at all. What I am saying is that "Joe Brown" would one day choose Christ as his Lord BECAUSE God chose to do something to "enable" him to hear the gospel and believe. However "Jack Black" would not choose Christ BECAUSE God choose not to call him at all.

But I'm almost certain I had it right based on your explaination...probably my fault though.

What I mean is that God CHOSE not to call Jack based on the God's foreknowledge of Jace not choosing Christ. If God had called Jack - then Jack would have rejected the call anyway so God, knowing this, doesn't call. Is that right?

But that doesn't explain the "Many are called, few are chosen" scripture though. Ok So Jack's called but he's not chosen because God foreknew that Jack wouldn't choose God? How's that?

LOL So confusing!

 

[Godzchild]

He chooses those who he forknows would have chosen him.

Example - If I knew my husband was going to cheat on me before I married him I wouldn't choose him to marry.

How's that?

Just trying to get my head around it all

 

[CCWoody]

But I'm almost certain I had it right based on your explaination...probably my fault though.

What I mean is that God CHOSE not to call Jack based on the God's foreknowledge of Jace not choosing Christ. If God had called Jack - then Jack would have rejected the call anyway so God, knowing this, doesn't call. Is that right?

But that doesn't explain the "Many are called, few are chosen" scripture though. Ok So Jack's called but he's not chosen because God foreknew that Jack wouldn't choose God? How's that?

LOL So confusing!

It is our belief that no man naturally seeks God so there would never be any foreknowledge of any person choosing God without a prior divine act toward that man. This if part of what it mean's for man to be Totally Depraved.

If any man chooses God, then it is only because of a divine act on bahalf of that man.

However, we also believe that there is an external call which reaches many men who reject God. You see, while they were confronted with the gospel, because there was no divine act to draw that man to God, he does what comes naturally to him and rejects the gospel.

 

[Rick Otto]

You are trying to figure out God's reasoning re: whom He chooses.
It sounds like you're pretty convinced of His sovereignity re: this, but you want Him to be "fair" or "logical" so you can "understand" &/or "agree" with Him re: what He chooses in this affair.

But you can't.

There's no way.

It doesn't make sense as far we know sense.

You have to trust Him. It's all for His glory, and He's all good,so "It's All Good!"lol

Ro 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Eph 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Php 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Re 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[Godzchild]

Ok I'll try again....

Say God knows that if was to call jack - that jack would reject him....so he doesn't call him?

How's that?

 

[Rick Otto]

You just made what God does dependant upon what Jack would do.
Jack is not sovereign God is.
Since Adam, EVERYone rejects God. That's why EVeryone needs salvation.
Think of foreknowing, not as some kind of "clairvoyance", but as planning.
God planned creation, it wasn't a crapshoot that He could peek ahead on.

 

[Rick Otto]

with total sovereignity is that you believe it wipes out individual responsibility for sin.
It doesn't.

 

[Godzchild]

NO?

So it has nothing to do with Jack rejecting the call of God which causes God not to call?