Alabama's Restrictive Abortion Law: Rape and Incest Discussion

[RaymondG]

I’ll never understand how people think it’s acceptable to kill innocent and vulnerable children of God. Women who do not want to raise a child are welcome to give them up.

I just can’t understand how someone who claims Christ as their God and Scripture as the foundation of their worldview can walk away thinking it’s an acceptable decision to literally kill another human who has done no wrong.

You welcome women to just give up children? Do you believe that the traversal through many foster homes (some good some not good), is a better alternative to a free trip directly to heaven(if you believe this happens)?

suicide rates are at all time highs for children in homes with the parents who bore them.... Yet you feel you are helping children out by forcing them into foster homes and home of parents who only had them because they were forced to?

Think about it, would you want to be in this situation? What would the children in the system, awaking foster homes, feel about the one who thought it better for them to live in that situation as opposed to living in heavenly bliss?

 

[Archivist]

Then your position is that all human rights are mere gifts of the State, that there are none that are self-existent and unalienable and which cannot be legitimately legislated away.

No, I'm just talking about the misuse of a word.

Your position is that we use the civil process to pass a law that says that it's not murder to kill Jews, or whites, or people under the age of five years, then that means it won't be murder in reality.

No, I said no such thing. I didn't address killing Jews, five-year olds are or anyone else. I am talking about forcing a woman to carry the seed of her attacker to term against her will. Last time I checked involuntary servitude qualifies as slavery.

Nope. That was one of the defense arguments at the Nuremberg trials. It doesn't hold water.

You need to read up on the Nuremberg Trials. The argument posted by the defense was that they were just following orders.

 

[Archivist]

So then your position really is that if we use the civil process to pass a law that says that it's not murder to kill Jews, or whites, or people under the age of five years for no other reason than they are one of those things then that means it won't be murder in reality.

No. I am talking about forcing a woman to carry the fetus of her attacker against her will.

 

[Servant of Yeshua]

The question in the case of rape isn’t the moral worth of the fetus, but whether you can force the pregnant woman to carry the fetus to term if doing so is against her will. She didn't ask to be raped.

WHen you have an act of violence done to you, why the woman (if she is someone who would eventually want an abortion anyway) not immediately report it and have a morning-after pill to ensure that a child would not grow to have heartbeat? Committing another act of violence on this woman is much more damaging. The child is half of her. She will be able to heal more knowing that she gave this innocent child life. Where there is life, there is hope. When I was 7-9 yrs old I was horribly sexually abused by a relative. I understand what I am saying, though I had not become pregnant. None of this is easy or fair. But when you commit another act of violence it is compounding the problem and taking it to a much harder level since now there is a murder. There are pro-life speakers out there ( such as Pam Stentzel ) who were conceived by rape but their birth mother lovingly served them well and then in her case gave her up for adoption. God knit the child in the womb. Either God is the author or life or He isn't. THough man choose to do a horrid acts of violence, God turned the evil into good by giving the miracle of life.

 

[Archivist]

1. The Lord knows us before he forms us in the womb.

"Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.'" - Jeremiah 1:4-5

2. God gives us life, not man.

"For You formed my inward parts: You covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, and that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them." - Psalm 139:13-16

3. God considers a mother and a child's life of equal value.

"If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot . . ." - Exodus 21:22-24

4. God is the author of life.


"It is I who bring both death and life." - Deuteronomy 32:39

5. God creates life for a purpose.

"But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace,
was pleased to reveal His Son to me, so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles." - St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15-16

And if these are your beliefs then by all means do not have an abortion.

 

[Danielwright2311]

And if these are your beliefs then by all means do not have an abortion.

There Gods words, not mine, and I believe every word from god. And I also do not support it.

 

[Danielwright2311]

No. I am talking about forcing a woman to carry the fetus of her attacker against her will.

What about the child's right not be be killed? He or she is a human life.

 

[Archivist]

WHen you have an act of violence done to you, why the woman (if she is someone who would eventually want an abortion anyway) not immediately report it and have a morning-after pill to ensure that a child would not grow to have heartbeat? Committing another act of violence on this woman is much more damaging. The child is half of her. She will be able to heal more knowing that she gave this innocent child life. Where there is life, there is hope. When I was 7-9 yrs old I was horribly sexually abused by a relative. I understand what I am saying, though I had not become pregnant. None of this is easy or fair. But when you commit another act of violence it is compounding the problem and taking it to a much harder level since now there is a murder. There are pro-life speakers out there ( such as Pam Stentzel ) who were conceived by rape but their birth mother lovingly served them well and then in her case gave her up for adoption. God knit the child in the womb. Either God is the author or life or He isn't. THough man choose to do a horrid acts of violence, God turned the evil into good by giving the miracle of life.

And, once again, I have never said that every fetus resulting from rape should be aborted. I have simply said that the choice must remain with the pregnant woman. Many women will choose to carry the fetus to term, but those who don't want to do so can't be forced to to do so. That is why the Alabama law will be overturned.

 

[Servant of Yeshua]

No. I am talking about forcing a woman to carry the fetus of her attacker against her will.

Did God not knit this child into the mother's womb. If God chooses to give life, I personally would not want to be the person that says.... "I know better than you God. This is too hard to do for 9 months, so I am removing the miracle of life that you gave me." Joseph was sold into slavery by his own brothers.... not at all fair and look how God took man's evil and turned it into good. Jesus was perfect and man killed him as a criminal and mocked and beat him ..... not at all fair and yet God takes Satan's evil plan and then turns it into good since without the cross there would be no way of man to be reconciled to God. God is not asking us to do anything that He will not give us the strength to do. Yet, the devil is constantly telling us.... this is too hard what he (God) asks... just give up.. you cannot do it. And some give up and even kill themselves because they believe Satan's lies. Romans 12:21 " Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Praise God for those who overcome the horror of rape and choose to honor God by not killing the child that God knit into the womb. All for the glory of God.

 

[Archivist]

What about the child's right not be be killed? He or she is a human life.

Should we prosecute our soldiers who kill others in war (many times killing innocents)? They are human lives.

If the fetus were not inside of the rape victim you would have a point.

 

[Archivist]

Did God not knit this child into the mother's womb. If God chooses to give life, I personally would not want to be the person that says.... "I know better than you God. This is too hard to do for 9 months, so I am removing the miracle of life that you gave me." Joseph was sold into slavery by his own brothers.... not at all fair and look how God took man's evil and turned it into good. Jesus was perfect and man killed him as a criminal and mocked and beat him ..... not at all fair and yet without this horrid act of man, there would be no way of man to be reconciled to God. God is not asking us to do anything that He will not give us the strength to do. Yet, the devil is constantly telling us.... this is too hard what he (God) asks... just give up.. you cannot do it. And some give up and even kill themselves because they believe Satan's lies.

Then by all means do not have an abortion when you get raped.

 

[Danielwright2311]

Should we prosecute our soldiers who kill others in war (many times killing innocents)? They are human lives.

If the fetus were not inside of the rape victim you would have a point.

All killing is wrong, even in war.

I do not support war and also do not support killing a child.

But thank you for addressing me.

 

[RaymondG]

Every child deserves to live, so its the child's fault that she or he is a rape victim?

The law should read if the woman can not accept the child then they must adopt them out after birth.

The laws also need to change to where in this event, if rape was proven or admitted, that person has no parental rights.

You are exclaiming what woman should be forced to do with their bodies after they are raped. You will never know how that feels....the emotional and mental stress involve....yet you so easily tell others that they should be forced to do what you believe they should.... Are you ok with this notion?

Would you be ok with women being allowed to tell you what you are legally able to do with your body....? What if their views are opposed to yours....would you think it right for them to be able to force you to do something even if they can never know what it feels like to do so?

 

[chilehed]

No, I said no such thing. I

You said that it's not murder to kill an innocent unborn human being because the civil law says that it's not. That necessarily means that it's not murder to kill innocent Jews, blacks or toddlers if the civil law says so, which necessarily means that human rights are mere gifts of the State. You can't have it both ways.

Iam talking about forcing a woman to carry the seed of her attacker to term against her will.

Rather, we're talking about whether or not all human beings have inalienable human rights. Your position is that all rights are gifts of the State; you can deny it all you wish, but that's what it is.

Last time I checked involuntary servitude qualifies as slavery.

But only if the law defines it as such, per your previously stated reasoning.

You need to read up on the Nuremberg Trials. The argument posted by the defense was that they were just following orders.

I have. You aren't aware that they had more than one legal rationalization for murdering innocent people?

Your position ultimately is that there is no restriction on behavior other than the will to power: if you want to kill an innocent human being, then pass a law that says it's okay.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Alabama Senate passes near-total abortion ban - CNNPolitics

The Alabama law makes abortion illegal except for three exceptions:

• "To avoid a serious health risk to the unborn child's mother"
• For ectopic pregnancy
• If the "unborn child has a lethal anomaly."

You'll see that of the exceptions, rape and incest are not among them. Opponents of the bill did attempt to have it amended to include rape and incest. Here is what Eric Johnson said below:

Eric Johnston, head of the Alabama Pro-life Coalition and the drafter of the initial legislation, told CNN "it would upend the law's legal standing.Regardless of how the conception takes place, the product is a child, and so we're saying that that unborn child is a person entitled to protection of law," he added. "So if, be it a rape or incest conception, then it would be impossible to ask a judge which of these is protected by law and which is not."

I think he's right. When it comes to the morality of abortion, the how in which a new human being comes into existence plays absolutely no role in determining their moral worth and value.

I really do not feel good about this situation. Especially since the 11 year old girl attempted suicide
twice. And if she was successful, both lives would be lost. Sad story.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...was-forced-give-birth/?utm_term=.42ad4de3beb4

 

[Archivist]

You said that it's not murder to kill an innocent unborn human being because the civil law says that it's not.

That is cirrect. You could call it killing or manslaughter, but it isn't murder.

That necessarily means that it's not murder to kill innocent Jews, blacks or toddlers if the civil law says so, which necessarily means that human rights are mere gifts of the State.

But that isn't the law, nor is such a law going to be enacted. i am addressing the law as it exists not, and an illegal killing must take place with malice aforethought for it to be murder.

Rather, we're talking about whether or not all human beings have inalienable human rights. Your position is that all rights are gifts of the State; you can deny it all you wish, but that's what it is.

Wrong. My position is that for a killing to be labeled as murder it must be the illegal killing of a human being with malice aforethought. As of today abortion does not meet the definition. I have never addressed the question of where rights come from.

I have. You aren't aware that they had more than one legal rationalization for murdering innocent people?

Actually their main argument was that they were simply following orders.

Your position ultimately is that there is no restriction on behavior other than the will to power: if you want to kill an innocent human being, then pass a law that says it's okay.

No, I am making no such claim. I am only addressing the incorrect use of a term based on the law as it now stands.

 

[redleghunter]

SPF, why do you continually refuse to accept the fact that THE MOTHER HAS MORAL VALUE TOO? Forcing her to deliver a baby 9 months after she told a man not to have sex with her is saying she has no moral value.

Yes, no one has argued against the moral value of the pregnant woman. In fact the physical violation against her is punishable by law.

What some seem not to accept is the conceived child did nothing to warrant their life terminated. There’s absolutely no moral or legal justification to terminate the life of one who has committed no crime or transgression.

The transgressor in the case of rape is the rapist. The rapist gets incarceration if found and convicted. Probably out in 3-5 years for “good behavior.” Then back out to potentially transgress again.

Yet the child, who did nothing but come into existence, gets the death penalty.

 

[Archivist]

Yes, no one has argued against the moral value of the pregnant woman. In fact the physical violation against her is punishable by law.

What some seem not to accept is the conceived child did nothing to warrant their life terminated. There’s absolutely no moral or legal justification to terminate the life of one who has committed no crime or transgression.

The transgressor in the case of rape is the rapist. The rapist gets incarceration if found and convicted. Probably out in 3-5 years for “good behavior.” Then back out to potentially transgress again.

Yet the child, who did nothing but come into existence, gets the death penalty.

But it is acceptable to punish the rape victim twice?

 

[redleghunter]

But it is acceptable to punish the rape victim twice?

Who is the violator of the second offense?

 

[Archivist]

Who is the violator of the second offense?

The state if they force a woman to carry the fetus of her attacker to term against her will.