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So you don't believe in grace?
New Testament writers have a different frame of reference from 17th or 21st century theologians. Calvin and Luther never knew about the patron client relationship. Grace is charis, gift, favour, again reminiscent of the plunder which a victorious general brought back:
Ephesians 2:8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.
9(Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: 13till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; 15but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ; 16from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in due measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love.
Wise men made interpretations, mostly right, but there are some disconnects in commentaries, creeds, traditions, articles of faith. We dont have to perpetuate those disconnects.
Semper reformanda?
Yes and I'm well aware of the patron-client relationship, and that grace happens within that context, both to establish that relationship and as a practice within it.
In any case, Luther was well aware that grace was not a thing, but an act of favor. That was one of Erasmus' great contributions to Greek scholarship and it set Luther on the path to Reformation.
And what I'm saying now is that if you don't see a contradiction between grace and faith, as though those were two "options," then you don't need to see a contradiction between baptism and faith. They aren't two options. Baptism is the ritual wherein the patron favors someone who becomes his client, and that client is then characterized by faith in the patron.
Incorrect.
The reason that the LORD allowed all the kids to enter the promised land was because they did not not have the knowledge of good and evil. God overlooked their sins simply because of this reason.
Seriously, people are trying to argue that teenagers cannot distinguish right from wrong? That's absolutely ridiculous. A seventeen year old is clearly able to do so, and turning twenty doesn't magically grant you that ability.
Seriously, people are trying to argue that teenagers cannot distinguish right from wrong? That's absolutely ridiculous. A seventeen year old is clearly able to do so, and turning twenty doesn't magically grant you that ability.
Well, tell me then, why did God allow everyone under the age of twenty to enter the promised land?
Luke 12:32Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.
A careful study will reveal that the gifts are given not at baptism, but at the point of a right response to a test of loyalty. The little flock that God was pleased to give the Kingdom to had surrendered faith in worldly things and thrown full weight behind God, like Joshua and Caleb...
Well, tell me then, why did God allow everyone under the age of twenty to enter the promised land?
They hadn't been part of the group revolt against God's promise as the previous generation had, and so they were not cut off from that promise as the previous generation had.
They weren't sinless or non-culpable for their own sins. It's that they were a fresh generation to whom God would give the Land, not turning against God's promises as their fathers had.
-CryptoLutheran
That goes against every description of baptism in the New Testament.
They hadn't been part of the group revolt against God's promise as the previous generation had, and so they were not cut off from that promise as the previous generation had.
They weren't sinless or non-culpable for their own sins. It's that they were a fresh generation to whom God would give the Land, not turning against God's promises as their fathers had.
-CryptoLutheran
That goes against every description of baptism in the New Testament.
All of that and you can't answer a few simple questions?
Postmodernist junk of "just-me-and-Jesus/Bible" is WAY too prevalent here.
I thank God that so many of us continue in the evidence-proven historic faith of the Apostles on this issue. Unsurprisingly, most of us come from historic, "big name" churches and denominations. Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, Hus, Cranmer, and Clement VII are, all together, rolling in their graves...
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