Against Sola Scriptura...

[Athanasius377]

Here's a good debate. I saw this one years ago and it still holds up. it might be better to get the sermon audio version and listen while working.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

It might also suggest that the Bible is God,

if I write you a letter that letter is not me. rather, it contains what I have to say to you and for you.

 

[Radagast]

Logos has been translated as 'word' or communication. Jesus is, as it were, God's "body language."

That would be an extremely bad translation.

By him and for him all things were created and continue to exist. (Ephesians 3:9-11; Colossians 1:16-17; Revelations 1:4)

Yes.

By using the word 'alone' you exclude Jesus as the Word of God.

I'm hoping he does not mean that.

Personally, I find it easier to accept that Jesus alone is the Word of God, because ... the Bible explicitly says He is the Word of God.

Amen.

 

[dreadnought]

if I write you a letter that letter is not me. rather, it contains what I have to say to you and for you.

But that letter doesn't encompass all of you.

 

[fhansen]

Are Catholics 100% United in their interpretation of Scripture? I deny that the Catholic system produces a unity of belief among the laity and even among clergy.

I don't think you understand the point. The Catholic Church presents a singular, unified body of beliefs; the catechism is the most complete and concise source of those beliefs. For the most part one either ignores or denies those teachings, or they agree with them. One can continue to call themselves "Catholic" either way but the title is meant to be used for those holding to Catholic beliefs. IOW, we know what the Church teaches. The bible, OTOH, produces no such unity of beliefs.

But going by Scripture alone, the term "Christian" can legitimately mean a person who believes significantly otherwise from another person going by the same name.

 

[Radagast]

I don't think you understand the point. The Catholic Church presents a singular, unified body of beliefs; the catechism is the most complete and concise source of those beliefs. For the most part one either ignores or denies those teachings, or they agree with them.

I've met five Catholics who believe everything in the Catechism. And several hundred who don't.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

But that letter doesn't encompass all of you.

Why would it need to?

 

[fhansen]

I've met five Catholics who believe everything in the Catechism. And several hundred who don't.

Most Catholics wouldn't even know everything in the catechism. But you seem to be purposefully avoiding the point. The catechism nonetheless defines Catholicism whereas the bible, used as the "rule of faith", defines many different and divergent systems of belief, some more, some less divergent from each other. Even JWs, going by Scripture as they claim they do, have the right to the name Christian, even if most of us would disagree with them on the definition of the term.

In any case Catholicism defines itself; individual opinions do not.

 

[redleghunter]

Furthermore, Scripture itself calls the Church, not itself, "the pillar and foundation of Truth", so if the Church is as such, how can Scripture be "alone" the source of Truth?

Yet we know this through Scriptures.

I will point out the Church as the pillar and foundation of Truth upholds such Truth and does not create it on their own. Pillars and foundations only hold up the structure already built and are not the builders.

Irenaeus understood this:

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.1 (St. Irenaeus)​

 

[Albion]

Whether or not Sacred Scripture is a supreme authority is beside the point. You must demonstrate that Sacred Scripture is the only supreme authority..

No. You are arguing that if something is not mentioned at all in Scripture, it is fair game for the institutional church hierarchy to make it into a dogma binding on the members under pain of mortal sin. That is how Sacred Tradition works.

But while most of the legends that have been turned into doctrine in this way are superstitions (or shall we call them pious opinions?) that do not outrage the average Catholic and may seem to be devotional, there is absolutely no reason why--using the Catholic concept of Tradition--almost any other item of folklore couldn't be just as easily made into dogma so long as it was popular with the people and the church leaders.

The "Assumption" of Mary, for example, comes from the people who believed that one (among many) of the legendary burial sites for the Virgin Mary turned up empty when opened, ERGO God must have taken her body to heaven.

But He could have taken it to Mount Sinai or somewhere else or...aliens from a distant star could have taken it to their home planet in order to begin the salvation of the people of another civilization. Almost anything.

And as for this other challenge you gave me:

You must demonstrate that Sacred Scripture is the only supreme authority.

I have to remind you that if something is "supreme", this means that nothing is its equal or better. By definition

 

[redleghunter]

There's no way to clearly show how Sola Scriptura is taught in Scripture, because it simply isn't taught in Scripture,

There is a way to demonstrate what is actually practiced without just wordsmithing and word searching. The demonstration of using God's inspired words to teach and confirm doctrines has been done since Sinai. Therefore, if the OP, @Tree of Life, can demonstrate in his paper that souls in both the OT and NT demonstrated using God's inspired Words alone for correction, reproof, edification, teaching and doctrine, then he will succeed in his argument.

and since there had been a period of time wherein New Testament Scripture had not yet been written, compiled, and canonized, yet salvation of Christians was taking place nevertheless, then it must be admitted that something besides Scripture is needed for salvation.

Jesus actually confirmed the witness of the apostles using the OT scriptures was enough:

Luke 24: NKJV
So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. 21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. 22 Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. 23 When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. 24 And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.”

25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

[...]

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

 

[Afra]

No. You are arguing that if something is not mentioned at all in Scripture, it is fair game for the institutional church hierarchy to make it into a dogma binding on the members under pain of mortal sin. That is how Sacred Tradition works.

But while most of the legends that have been turned into doctrine in this way are superstitions (or shall we call them pious opinions?) that do not outrage the average Catholic and may seem to be devotional, there is absolutely no reason why--using the Catholic concept of Tradition--almost any other item of folklore couldn't be just as easily made into dogma so long as it was popular with the people and the church leaders.

The "Assumption" of Mary, for example, comes from the people who believed that one (among many) of the legendary burial sites for the Virgin Mary turned up empty when opened, ERGO God must have taken her body to heaven.

But He could have taken it to Mount Sinai or somewhere else or...aliens from a distant star could have taken it to their home planet in order to begin the salvation of the people of another civilization. Almost anything.

And as for this other challenge you gave me:


I have to remind you that if something is "supreme", this means that nothing is its equal or better. By definition

No, that is not how Sacred Tradition works. Your view is nothing more than a false characterization, no matter how many times you repeat it. You will convince only yourself because you are arguing against a straw man.

And how you or your dictionary define supreme is irrelevant here, because I already provided you with an example that proves your view wrong. Our Lord Jesus is equal in authority to Sacred Scripture. And so is God the Father. Thus there are three that are supreme, and yet equal in authority. Thus you are proven to be in error.

 

[redleghunter]

It (Sola Scriptura) does teach, however, that the Church is not needed as a source of Truth, but that one should rather look to Scripture alone which can lead either to one objective Truth, or in other definitions of Sola Scriptura, one's own personal Truth. The Bible, however, teaches that the Church is needed, for she is the "pillar and foundation of Truth".

Regardless, I wish you well on your writing project.

The bolded is the underlying dispute. The church as the foundation and pillar upholds the Truth and not a creator thereof. Where you see the Truth upheld you find the Church. Which means the Church should be upholding the Truth and not creating their own.

 

[Albion]

And how you or your dictionary define supreme is irrelevant here, because I already provided you with an example that proves your view wrong. Our Lord Jesus is equal in authority to Sacred Scripture. And so is God the Father.

It appears to me that the concept of equality is a problem for you as well as supremacy.

 

[Afra]

It appears to me that the concept of equality is a problem for you as well as supremacy.

What "appears to you" is irrelevant.

 

[truefiction1]

The bolded is the underlying dispute. The church as the foundation and pillar upholds the Truth and not a creator thereof. Where you see the Truth upheld you find the Church. Which means the Church should be upholding the Truth and not creating their own.

Precisely. That is why we are members of the Church Who upholds the Truth, by the Grace of God, and not one who creates its own truth.

 

[truefiction1]

There is a way to demonstrate what is actually practiced without just wordsmithing and word searching. The demonstration of using God's inspired words to teach and confirm doctrines has been done since Sinai. Therefore, if the OP, @Tree of Life, can demonstrate in his paper that souls in both the OT and NT demonstrated using God's inspired Words alone for correction, reproof, edification, teaching and doctrine, then he will succeed in his argument.


Jesus actually confirmed the witness of the apostles using the OT scriptures was enough:

Luke 24: NKJV
So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. 21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. 22 Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. 23 When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. 24 And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.”

25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

[...]

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

What Christ and the others confirm in their appeal to the authority of Scripture is that it is the Book of the people of God. The people of God are those who abide within a Holy Tradition which is upheld by the power of the Holy Spirit. Outside of this Holy Tradition of the people of God (Israel, the Church) their lies wrongful interpretation and confusion (Acts 8:31). Your own Scriptural quotations which you've provided here bear witness to the role of the Church in bearing witness to the Truth to all nations, which She has done from the beginning until now. The Church has neither veered to the left (Romanism) with its logos bias, nor to the right (the Protestation of Romanism) with it's strong spirit of individualism, but remains the provider of Holy Tradition to those whom God chooses to grace with true membership.

Now, the repentance is the hardest thing, even for us, and it is the most needful thing for us all.

 

[truefiction1]

Yet we know this through Scriptures.

I will point out the Church as the pillar and foundation of Truth upholds such Truth and does not create it on their own. Pillars and foundations only hold up the structure already built and are not the builders.

Irenaeus understood this:

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.1 (St. Irenaeus)​

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth because She is built upon the One foundation -- Christ -- and upon the apostolic confession of faith, which has been upheld since the beginning by the power of the Holy Spirit breathing in the Life of the Church. No individual can build something other than that which has already been built from the beginning. One can only build upon that foundation from within the building that already rests upon that foundation, except perhaps in a mystical way known only by God.

But there is a visible Church organism whose existence is from the beginning and whose Faith is True to the Word and the Spirit of God, and so to God the Father.

 

[Albion]

What Christ and the others confirm in their appeal to the authority of Scripture is that it is the Book of the people of God. The people of God are those who abide within a Holy Tradition which is upheld by the power of the Holy Spirit. Outside of this Holy Tradition of the people of God (Israel, the Church) their lies wrongful interpretation and confusion (Acts 8:31). .

Assuming for the sake of the argument that all this is true, the Bible is what it is--and is available to all men, quite independent of anyones interpretation.

Therefore, Sola Scriptura is what it purports to be, even if individual readers are not receptive or responsive. But if that is so, the same applies to the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox teachings and what they base them on, too.

 

[Albion]

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth because She is built upon the One foundation -- Christ -- and upon the apostolic confession of faith, which has been upheld since the beginning by the power of the Holy Spirit breathing in the Life of the Church. No individual can build something other than that which has already been built from the beginning. One can only build upon that foundation from within the building that already rests upon that foundation, except perhaps in a mystical way known only by God.

It is the people of God, not any particular institution or church organization that that verse is speaking of.

But there is a visible Church organism whose existence is from the beginning and whose Faith is True to the Word and the Spirit of God, and so to God the Father.

Now lets count the number of different denominations that insist that they are the one and only one that is true, is from the beginning, and all of that.