Against Sola Scriptura...

[Tree of Life]

The Bible is not God.

Idols do not sneak into the church dressed as pagan monsters. They begin as things that are good, saintly, holy and even ordained of God. When these physical things begin to take the place of God, being treated as God, or are assumed to have traits that only God can have, then they become idols. Ancient Israel had its brass serpent. We have Mary, the Saints and the Bible.

I'm saddened to see that you hold this unbiblical view. This was not Jesus' view of Scripture.

God spoke authoritatively through prophets, but the prophets were not God. An encounter with the prophets was not an encounter with God. Most importantly, and I think often forgotten, the prophets were not infallible. It would have been a colossal mistake to stone a prophet for being a mere man, because that's exactly what he was. Even so, it was right to hold his prophecies to a perfect scrutiny, because God is perfect.

Jesus told his prophets that if any man hears them, he hears Jesus - and thus hears God (John 13:20). So an interaction with a prophet of God was an interaction with God - although in a mediate sense.

 

[Christian_Follower]

Yeah the emergent and postmodern views are an whole other problem. Can you think of any specific objections from these pagans that I could confront?

also here's a quote from John Burke
“Everything about Jesus is love. His love for you is so personal it seems as if it is only for you. You come to realize that He has cared for you forever and will continue to care for you forever. His love is alive. It is more than just a sense. You are becoming His love. You are His love. Jesus loves us completely.”

There is also the Social Gospel issue with people Tony Campolo & Dallas Willard

 

[Afra]

Thanks. 1 and 2 will be dealt with in the first part of my paper as I demonstrate the doctrine from Scripture. 3 doesn't matter. 4 is an interesting objection but is probably beyond the scope of this paper. I'll have to think about whether I have the space and time to tackle that. 5 is good and I'll address that one. 6 is just heretical! But it may still be worth addressing. It's not really a Catholic objection, but more an unbelieving objection.

Friend, I am sorry to break the bad news to you, but there are no perfect copies of the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. Practically all of the major manuscript copies that are in existence are available on the Internet. Read and compare them for yourself. There are thousands of variants and disagreements among the manuscripts that are in our possession, and there is not 100 percent agreement on the language of the original texts. That is why some of the newer Bible translations omit entire verses that are found in older translations such as the KJV, for example. I suggest you do some serious research into textual criticism and the process by which the NIV on your bookshelf arrived there.

 

[truefiction1]

• Deuteronomy 4:2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
  2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may k

• Deuteronomy 12:32 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
  32 Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

• Revelation 22:18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
  18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
  keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Is Sola Scriptura in the Bible?

Like I stated earlier, nowhere does the Bible teach Sola Scriptura, these verses included. Plus, the Revelation verse is regarding the Book of Revelation alone, not the whole canon of Scripture. The first verses were in the Old Testament Scripture. The New Testament hadn't been written yet: the words of the New Testament "were added" to the Bible, so this in itself is a violation of Deuteronomy's command, if your interpretation is allowed.

 

[Hank77]

The words of Paul in I Corinthians, "To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord).."
what follows is Paul's personal opinion and not God's word and he tells us so.
Paul's opinion carries the weight of Apostolic authority but it's not something that the Lord said.

Is it an opinion that does not have it's basis in OT scriptures that were directly from God?

 

[St_Worm2]

Are you willing to stop talking in church?

If the Lord told me not to, of course I would be. Wouldn't you?

How can lying to someone, or even trying to conceal an important truth from them (especially a Biblical truth), be the "loving" thing to do in most cases Is that the way you want others to treat you, to lie or withhold needed information from you when they think you might not like hearing it?

 

[Vicomte13]

The Bible is the Word of God. I don't think it's very easy to separate God's Word from his person. So the Bible is God, in a sense.

Paul's words in Scripture are God's words.

Thank you for stating that so bluntly. That is PRECISELY the unbridgeable gap between Catholicism and Protestantism. From a Protestant viewpoint, what you stated is the very foundation of belief - though few Protestants would be so directly explicit.

From the Catholic perspective, that is idolatry every bit as shocking as what Protestants feel looking at Catholic statuary, but far more dangerous because Catholic "idols" do not talk, but the Protestant idol purports (in their belief) to tell them everything and anything they need to know about God.

There is no real possible meeting of the minds across this gap. Each's core religion is frank idolatry to the other.

The best we can do is keep a respectful distance from each other, and keep the peace.

 

[klutedavid]

There's no way to clearly show how Sola Scriptura is taught in Scripture, because it simply isn't taught in Scripture, and since there had been a period of time wherein New Testament Scripture had not yet been written, compiled, and canonized, yet salvation of Christians was taking place nevertheless, then it must be admitted that something besides Scripture is needed for salvation. Hence, there is no such thing as "Scripture alone". Furthermore, Scripture itself calls the Church, not itself, "the pillar and foundation of Truth", so if the Church is as such, how can Scripture be "alone" the source of Truth?

Like I said. Sola Scriptura is a mere philosophy of man which came about as a reaction to Roman Christian corruption.

This I think is the central point in this debate.

Like I said. Sola Scriptura is a mere philosophy of man which came about as a reaction to Roman Christian corruption.

Your saying that the Roman church tradition was corrupt, which no doubt it was. This corrupted Catholic tradition fueled that Reformation. Once the traditional old church movements were corrupted over time. People had no choice but to return to the basics of Christianity. Hence, new church movements began to multiply and they still do.

If the Roman church could undo over a thousand years of corruption, in it's church doctrines. Then I would become a fervent Roman Catholic. Alas, the Catholic church enforces it's own tradition, which means that these corrupt doctrines became Catholic law.

So there is no real choice to be made, we had to return to the basics of Christianity. The only source available on the basics of Christianity, was the scripture itself.

 

[Afra]

Thank you for stating that so bluntly. That is PRECISELY the unbridgeable gap between Catholicism and Protestantism. From a Protestant viewpoint, what you stated is the very foundation of belief - though few Protestants would be so directly explicit.

From the Catholic perspective, that is idolatry every bit as shocking as what Protestants feel looking at Catholic statuary, but far more dangerous because Catholic "idols" do not talk, but the Protestant idol purports (in their belief) to tell them everything and anything they need to know about God.

There is no real possible meeting of the minds across this gap. Each's core religion is frank idolatry to the other.

The best we can do is keep a respectful distance from each other, and keep the peace.

You should have written "from Vicomte13's perspective" not "from the Catholic perspective". What you wrote are your personal opinions, not the teaching of the Church.

 

[Danielwright2311]

Its good your including Gods word in all your life. I'm proud to know you and also proud of you. Fill up your whole life with God.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

You mean the fact that many have misinterpreted Scripture and their errors not Scripture have been exposed?

Yes, the misinterpretation of scripture is exactly what I am asking about. How can one tell, objectively, that one is misinterpreting scripture? In the case of Copernicus and Gallileo, it was the findings of science. This is evidence for accepting the findings of science as a guide to interpreting scripture. So we should reject interpretations that call for a universe less than 13 billion years of age, an earth less than 4 billion years of age . . . right?? Because those interpretations are, after all, false guides to understanding cosmology .

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The problem with your thesis is that the Bible does not teach Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is not Biblical doctrine: it is merely a philosophy of the Protestant reformation.

This is the same argument opponents of systematic theology and usage of theological terms that are not found directly in Scripture. It is also the same argument opponents of the doctrine of the Trinity make. One of the greatest philosophical minds in the Catholic tradition would be St. Thomas Aquinas, his Summa being one of the earliest systematic theologies.

 

[Albion]

The notion that the supreme authority of Scripture is not referred to in Scripture is totally without foundation.

Therefore, the argument against it amounts to saying that the precise term, Sola Scriptura, is not to be found there (as was noted by Apologetic Warrior).

 

[dqhall]

I'm saddened to see that you hold this unbiblical view. This was not Jesus' view of Scripture.



Jesus told his prophets that if any man hears them, he hears Jesus - and thus hears God (John 13:20). So an interaction with a prophet of God was an interaction with God - although in a mediate sense.

If you take the Bible to be God, why are you not sacrificing bulls for the sins of your people as the Bible commands. Why are you not resting from sundown Friday until Sunday Saturday and stoning those who do any work during those hours as the Bible commands? Why have you not located a Levite to pay 10% to if you think the Bible is God, for the Bible commanded it?

Paul did not say every word he wrote was the word of God. People were not baptized in the name of Paul. Paul did not ask that his words should be worshiped. You should rather worship the living God.

! Corinthians 1:11 (WEB) For it has been reported to me concerning you, my brothers, by those who are from Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,” and, “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one should say that I had baptized you into my own name. 16 (I also baptized the household of Stephanas; besides them, I don’t know whether I baptized any other.) 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Good News—not in wisdom of words, so that the cross of Christ wouldn’t be made void.

 

[Albion]

If you take the Bible to be God, why are you not sacrificing bulls for the sins of your people as the Bible commands. Why are you not resting from sundown Friday until Sunday Saturday and stoning those who do any work during those hours as the Bible commands? Why have you not located a Levite to pay 10% to if you think the Bible is God, for the Bible commanded it?

The answer there is that the Bible also provides guidance about those rules not being applicable to the church of the new covenant (Christianity), although they once were applicable to the Hebrews before the coming of the Messiah.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Yes, the misinterpretation of scripture is exactly what I am asking about. How can one tell, objectively, that one is misinterpreting scripture? In the case of Copernicus and Gallileo, it was the findings of science. This is evidence for accepting the findings of science as a guide to interpreting scripture. So we should reject interpretations that call for a universe less than 13 billion years of age, an earth less than 4 billion years of age . . . right?? Because those interpretations are, after all, false guides to understanding cosmology .

Although there are Scientific matters in Scripture, it is clearly not intended to be a Science textbook, but it is accurate and truthful where it speaks to Scientific matters, unless one goes down the slippery slope of not presupposing God is the Creator of everything called Science, and supposing man is the final authority over Scientific knowledge. Every Scientist, Christian or non, that has had a true thought concerning Science, or made a discovery, is actually not original, nor autonomous, but in a sense, thinking God's thoughts after Him, so that even through what is called natural theology, man's knowledge of truth is dependent upon the mind of God, and the point of contact is being made in the image of God.

 

[Vicomte13]

You should have written "from Vicomte13's perspective" not "from the Catholic perspective". What you wrote are your personal opinions, not the teaching of the Church.

What I have written, I have written.

 

[Afra]

What I have written, I have written.

Thank you for clarifying that.

 

[Tree of Life]

If you take the Bible to be God, why are you not sacrificing bulls for the sins of your people as the Bible commands. Why are you not resting from sundown Friday until Sunday Saturday and stoning those who do any work during those hours as the Bible commands? Why have you not located a Levite to pay 10% to if you think the Bible is God, for the Bible commanded it?

Because the Bible gives me reason to no longer practice the commands of God in this way. Sola Scriptura also entails Tota Scriptura - we need nothing less than the whole word of God.

 

[fhansen]

Do Catholics agree 100% on everything the Scriptures teach?

I would highly doubt it. And that's the very reason the church hasn't relied on Scripture alone.