against breast implants (and similair plastic surgery)

[oberland]

[FONT=&quot]Hi Flashskeletal,

I have a problem in being against cosmetic surgery, because while I agree that it can be a form of vanity, if we were to ban cosmetic surgery on those grounds then we should also ban the wearing of make up, and any clothing that would appear “worldly” We could end up not far from the Amish position, some would say (and I would be one of them) that going that far in being plain would be too far, but where do you draw the line, and who would do the line drawing? [/FONT] vbmenu_register("postmenu_34005452", true);

 

[bliz]

While I personally share the OP's perspective on breast implants, I see no good to come from a united front opposing such surgery. which would inevitably turn into a comdemnation of women who, IMHO, already have insecurities and misplaced values.

It will also lead to suspisions about any women with breasts that attract anyone's attention. If a woman's breasts are considered too nice or too large or too perky by anyone will they be accused or required to prove they are natural?

Women have enough serious problems over body image and related matters without adding guilt or suspicion or whatever to the mix. If we are really concerned about women who feel the need for implants, let's look to the root causes of poor body image or poor self esteem and work collectivly on that rather than attack those who have already been wounded by cultural values.

And if Christian men would cease paying extra attention to about well endowed women it would be a nice start.

 

[Diven]

"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is [re]constructive.
1 Cor 10:23 (modified for a joke).

From a purely ethical stand I would agree that breast implants for the purpose of enhancing ones physical appearance is not something Christians should support. I do see it as an attitude of conforming to the patterns of the world. It would apply equally to make up and fancy clothing, (which actually is discussed in the bible, 1 Tim 2, and 1 Peter 3) If a woman was unwilling to "come out" without her make up or fancy clothing on.

That said I don't want to start an anti-implants rally, if this is a concern for the Church it should be a concern more than some of our sisters have a sense of low self worth and we should be doing more to encourage them that they are valued. And earnestly I see this as a problem for both sexes in our church today. It just manifests differently.

 

[Love&Pain]

I think it's a woman's personal choice if she wants them or not. I support woman who get breast implants because they are insecure with their body. I know God created us but our bodies are only temporary and if a woman feels that she needs them to feel more confident then fine.

 

[aflower4God]

As a Christian, I am against breast implants and other non-health related plastic surgery However, I am noticing more and more Christian women getting breast implants and Christian men supporting breast implants. Simply sated, I am look for open, honest, challenging and non-perverted dialog or debate on this issue. Here is my rationale against breast implants.

First, the Savior taught to see the insides of others, not the outside. I believe the very act of getting a breast implant is based on the worldly view that female worth is located by breast size. In the world, “real” woman have “larger” breasts. As such, women with smaller breasts or women who had mastectomies are then labeled in society as “less than.” This in turn, causes them to dislike themselves and question their worth. We need to act like the Savior and I do not think he could support the view that breast size equates female worth. I think the Savior (and therefore people) should see inner attributes of female worth – such as kindness, humility, meekness, intelligences, a strong work ethic, and service. By getting or supporting breasts implants, it send a worldly message -- non-purposeful -- that women with smaller breasts are “less than.” It hurts smaller breasted women and those women who get mastectomies. Further, the underlying ideology behind breast implants (e.g., women as sex objects) leads to a host other health concerns, such as eating disorders, depression, and so forth.

Second, whether a woman gets a breast implant for private or public display (although private is a better choice), it still reinforces a worldly view of seeing women as sex objects –it reinforces it. Further, because men have natural tendencies (both biological and learned) to see breasts as sexual toys, it reinforces the male tendencies to prefer larger breasts (rather than teaching men to see the inner beauty of women and simply appreciate her sexual attributes for what they are). Not only does these affect Christian men, but also it affects the male gender in general in society. Although this is a bit of a stretch, I think it could also have an affect of men and women desiring to have larger penises and go for cosmetic surgery in this area. But I’ll leave this thought as it is.

In closing, I want to add that I see a huge difference between reconstructive surgery (repairing what is lost, restoring functioning) and cosmetic surgery (augmentative beyond a normative or natural state). As such, I’m in 100% support of reconstructive surgery and can understand breast implants in mastectomies, when women are born with absolutely no breast tissue, or when losing everything after breastfeeding (and I do think the Lord intended women to breast feed). Because I think the Savior would embrace health and health function, I believe I should act as He would.

I look forward to thoughtful and Christ-like conversation.

FRIEND I have two words for you:
GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Archivist]

As a Christian, I am against breast implants and other non-health related plastic surgery However, I am noticing more and more Christian women getting breast implants and Christian men supporting breast implants. Simply sated, I am look for open, honest, challenging and non-perverted dialog or debate on this issue. Here is my rationale against breast implants.

First, the Savior taught to see the insides of others, not the outside. I believe the very act of getting a breast implant is based on the worldly view that female worth is located by breast size. In the world, “real” woman have “larger” breasts. As such, women with smaller breasts or women who had mastectomies are then labeled in society as “less than.” This in turn, causes them to dislike themselves and question their worth. We need to act like the Savior and I do not think he could support the view that breast size equates female worth. I think the Savior (and therefore people) should see inner attributes of female worth – such as kindness, humility, meekness, intelligences, a strong work ethic, and service. By getting or supporting breasts implants, it send a worldly message -- non-purposeful -- that women with smaller breasts are “less than.” It hurts smaller breasted women and those women who get mastectomies. Further, the underlying ideology behind breast implants (e.g., women as sex objects) leads to a host other health concerns, such as eating disorders, depression, and so forth.

Second, whether a woman gets a breast implant for private or public display (although private is a better choice), it still reinforces a worldly view of seeing women as sex objects –it reinforces it. Further, because men have natural tendencies (both biological and learned) to see breasts as sexual toys, it reinforces the male tendencies to prefer larger breasts (rather than teaching men to see the inner beauty of women and simply appreciate her sexual attributes for what they are). Not only does these affect Christian men, but also it affects the male gender in general in society. Although this is a bit of a stretch, I think it could also have an affect of men and women desiring to have larger penises and go for cosmetic surgery in this area. But I’ll leave this thought as it is.

In closing, I want to add that I see a huge difference between reconstructive surgery (repairing what is lost, restoring functioning) and cosmetic surgery (augmentative beyond a normative or natural state). As such, I’m in 100% support of reconstructive surgery and can understand breast implants in mastectomies, when women are born with absolutely no breast tissue, or when losing everything after breastfeeding (and I do think the Lord intended women to breast feed). Because I think the Savior would embrace health and health function, I believe I should act as He would.

I look forward to thoughtful and Christ-like conversation.

You can't condemn breast implants for women without equally condemning cosmetic surgery for men, which has become a booming industry.

http://menshealth.about.com/cs/surgery/a/cosmetic.htm

 

[jonpantomime]

i believe that god made us the way we are, if we augmented it ourselves, we are to blame.

i can't say about burn victims though as i dont want to go off topic and to quell any flaming darts.

Choice.

 

[GoNoles]

On the surface (no pun intended), this seems like a "black and white" issue, but like several have said, plastic surgery is but one form of body modification that our society supports. People shave, pierce their ears, get tattoos, go to tanning beds, wax their eybrows, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Plastic surgery (with a focus on breast augmentation) is a non-issue, IMO. Men and women using their bodies to tempt others and cause them to sin... now THAT is the real issue. And lest anyone think that I have a vested stake in this issue... I don't. My wife (and I) are 100% unmodified... so far.

 

[Flashskeletal]

Just a couple of thoughts. First off, like others, I am not trying to create an anti-breast implants rally. However, at the same time, I think many Christians from many different denominations site silent while social movement grow. Silence is a choice. As Christians I believe there is a place beyond “let the individual choose” and to stand up to social movements, like the increase in breast implants. However, I also want to make it perfectly clear that any women (or man) who gets breast implants should not feel they are evil – I just think they have contradicted the Savior in this ONE area (they still can be good people and do great thinks in different areas of life). Hence, I am going to continue to argue that breast implants are contrary to Christian teachers and try to persuade others of my belief. However, I am open to others trying to persuade me that breast implants are appropriate within a Christian framework. It is through challenging and respectful dialogue that we can grow.

Tamiinks:

I disagree with your underlying assumption that the basic measure of who we are our outside shell. This seems to be more oriented toward marketing in a capitalistic society based on biological pleasure, than a Christian ethic. It is clear to me that the Savior could care less about the size of our houses, expensive jewelry and clothes, or the size of breasts. I agree with Dies 31that we should not let the world and vanity control behavior. And I see breast implants as vanity because the only outcome is to look more sexual with a certain body image (Barbie-doll), and looking more sexual supports the ideology that women should be sex objects for men or the male gaze.

Biblestudy 123:

I completely disagree with you that breasts can be used in service to make husbands happier. I find your post troubling because (1) it reinforces the worldly view that men should desire larger breasts, (2) that the sole reason for breasts are male sexual pleasure (opposed to other roles, such as nurturing, comforting, or feeding), and (3) its is based on a common Biblical misinterpretation – which usually comes from the Songs of Solomon. Dr. Gaskill (who use to teach religious education at Berkeley – see his recent book The Lost Language of Symbolism) underscores that breasts were a standard symbol for an intimate nonsexual relationship, security and protection (e.g., “Safe on my mothers breast” from Ps 22:9 or “Can a woman forget her nursing child” from Is 49:15). Both Dr. Wilson (see Dictionary of Bible Types) and Dr. Conner (see Interpreting the Symbols and Types) also highlight that breasts refer to nurturing and feeding. As such, the high Biblical status of breasts is related to being nurturing. Further, read Proverbs 31:30 – it is explaining the characteristics of a virtuous woman and the second last paragraph states that beauty is vain; instead a virtuous woman should fear and praise God.

According to the Biblical scholars listed above, and including the writings of Dr. Seeley (from the edited volume Studies in Scriptures 1 Kings to Malachi by Dr. Jackson) the Song of Solomon is a song or love poems, which highlights erotic love between a man and a woman. Us such, it has nothing to do with physical appearance or size and underscores how when in love you see your spouse as beautiful and should have a deep and erotic relationship (and I would add where both people are giving in sexual activity and in the demands of life). Both the man and the woman have eyes of a dove – symbolic for the caring eyes that a husband and wife should have.

Bliz:

I completely agree with you. As a male, I think men are probable more to blame for women getting breast implants than women. Men need to stop being so oriented toward the bigness problem (e.g., wanting a bigger house, bigger (expensive) cars, breasts/penises, toys such as gold clubs to show status). I have no reservations in taking men (or women) to task who privilege larger breasts over others – it’s really a male sickness and underscores that many men are at a cro-magnum level of development. However, the truly hilarious aspect of taking large breast advocate men to task is how common their reply is that (1) I am intimidated of large breasts, or (2) I must have a smaller penis. So, before anyone want to make a similar reply, let me set the record straight that both issue are not accurate and irrelevant to the question at issue.

Oberland:

I agree somewhat with you and disagree somewhat. I agree that the underlying ideology of make up, padded bras, jewelry, etc. reinforces the same ideology of vanity. Hence, I think all Christians need to live much simpler lives (basic car over an expensive car) and think that men need to see the natural beauty of women over make up. We really need to emulate the Savior and downscale our lives and spend more time helping the poor and needy. However, breast implants is much more pervasive and dangerous than make-up and other social activities. Unfortunately, breasts have become stronger social indicators of femininity than make up (e.g., “real” women need “real” breasts – also see the book “The history of the breast by Dr. Maryln Yalow)) and it is an actual surgery that goes inside the body with fairly serious side effects. Do I make sense?

 

[GoNoles]

I fully understand what you're saying, Flash, but railing against ONE cultural issue misses the point. Almost everything in our world can be used for good or evil. As Christians, we are to live our lives in such a submissive state that the Holy Spirit will guide those decisions where Scripture is not pointedly specific.

Focusing on the outward appearance is sinful and is a manifestation of the fall of mankind, but I don't think it's logical to state that

they have contradicted the Savior in this ONE area

or that breast implants are sinful just because

breast implants are contrary to Christian teachers

Since when do "Christian teachers" trump the ministry of the Holy Spirit in a Christian's life?

I am open to others trying to persuade me that breast implants are appropriate within a Christian framework.

Again, I believe "appropriate" is based on the Holy Spirit's leading. Yes, we as Christian brothers and sisters provide some guidance to others, but we can't make the blanket statement that someone has contradicted Christ in her life simply because she or he has had cosmetic surgery for purely cosmetic reasons.

 

[TamiinKS]

Tamiinks:

I disagree with your underlying assumption that the basic measure of who we are our outside shell. This seems to be more oriented toward marketing in a capitalistic society based on biological pleasure, than a Christian ethic. It is clear to me that the Savior could care less about the size of our houses, expensive jewelry and clothes, or the size of breasts. I agree with Dies 31that we should not let the world and vanity control behavior. And I see breast implants as vanity because the only outcome is to look more sexual with a certain body image (Barbie-doll), and looking more sexual supports the ideology that women should be sex objects for men or the male gaze.

It's clear that you didn't read my post carefully.

I have no such "underlying assumption." I merely state facts. In this culture, looks are part of how we define ourselves. We must travel a road that is very much against what we see, hear and read every day to be able to accept our bodies as they are. Women are particularly susceptible to this problem as society in general seems to place a much higher standard on women in the appearance department.

I wish it were not so. I wish we could look any ol' way we want and be loved by all. But that's not the world we live in. Christian women are no immune to this.

There is no eternal significance attached to my breasts (which, btw, are intended to satisfy husbands. You overlooked one Proverb in your postings). Thank goodness.

I don't think Christian women should be so concerned with their physical appearance that they get breast augmentations. But to suggest that a woman who has had a mastectomy shouldn't have reconstructive surgery is just cruel.

 

[bliz]

Not to mention... but there is just something slightly creepy and inappropriate about a man leading the charge against breast implants. Like, how much time have you given to thinking about this? How much have you been looking at breasts as you think about this?

And, most crucial, how does your wife feel about you championing this particular cause? Your position reflects on her and her breasts as well.

 

[Flashskeletal]

Tamiink:

Just a quick response to your last post and then I’ll wait for other people to respond.

I think we both have made an error in not reading each others post. In my very first post (last paragraph) I state that I am an advocate of reconstructive surgeries – especially for mastectomy. Please re-read it so that you can see how I draw the distinction between reconstructive and plastic surgery. Like you, I think it would be cruel to not let women have reconstructive surgery after breast cancer. In fact, one of the reasons I am opposed to breast implants is because my mother had a mastectomy and I’ve learned that part of the reason this was difficult to her was because of a warped society that emphasis too much the importance of breasts to women. They are important, but women are so much more than a pair of breasts.

Also, regarding stating “just the facts” all facts are based on cultural ideology. And although I realize women and men are not immune to ideology, they can choice to follow it or resist t. As a male, I am resisting the male gaze and think women are so much more than a pair of breasts. I think this decision is much more ethical than the jump on the bandwagon approach to simply follow the worldly perspective of treating women as sex objects.

In closing, Tamiink, I agree with you that there is a huge societal pressure to view breasts as sex objects and focus on appearance. I can understand and advocate health (e.g.., exercise, braces for teeth) – but not non-health related breast implants and similar plastic surgeries. I also realize I am male and that you are female and because of it, we have different societal expectations. However, this is why we are having dialog – to lay our thoughts out in the table, challenge and persuade each other (with respect and no perverted aspects), and hopefully grow as people and Christians.

The only mistake I think I made in starting this post is that I should have created the poll toward the end, after we all have time to have dialog on the subject.

 

[GoNoles]

TESTING TESTING... *knock* *knock* * knock* IS THIS THING ON?

I don't have a complex or a need to be recognized, but Flash, are you ignoring me?

 

[TamiinKS]

Tamiink:

Just a quick response to your last post and then I’ll wait for other people to respond.

I think we both have made an error in not reading each others post. In my very first post (last paragraph) I state that I am an advocate of reconstructive surgeries – especially for mastectomy. Please re-read it so that you can see how I draw the distinction between reconstructive and plastic surgery. Like you, I think it would be cruel to not let women have reconstructive surgery after breast cancer. In fact, one of the reasons I am opposed to breast implants is because my mother had a mastectomy and I’ve learned that part of the reason this was difficult to her was because of a warped society that emphasis too much the importance of breasts to women. They are important, but women are so much more than a pair of breasts.

Also, regarding stating “just the facts” all facts are based on cultural ideology. And although I realize women and men are not immune to ideology, they can choice to follow it or resist t. As a male, I am resisting the male gaze and think women are so much more than a pair of breasts. I think this decision is much more ethical than the jump on the bandwagon approach to simply follow the worldly perspective of treating women as sex objects.

In closing, Tamiink, I agree with you that there is a huge societal pressure to view breasts as sex objects and focus on appearance. I can understand and advocate health (e.g.., exercise, braces for teeth) – but not non-health related breast implants and similar plastic surgeries. I also realize I am male and that you are female and because of it, we have different societal expectations. However, this is why we are having dialog – to lay our thoughts out in the table, challenge and persuade each other (with respect and no perverted aspects), and hopefully grow as people and Christians.

The only mistake I think I made in starting this post is that I should have created the poll toward the end, after we all have time to have dialog on the subject.

Honestly, I did see that at the end of your post, but the first part of your original post seemed to be suggesting that even if a woman has had a mastectomy, she should not feel like she has to have "new" breasts to replace the old ones.

I agree that we should not necessarily place our value on the outward appearances. I have for the most part enjoyed this dialogue. But while I am more than a pair of breasts, they are PART of what identifies me as a woman. Part of how God made me different from you.

Perhaps because they are so outward a symbol of my femininity, my breasts are important to me. If I were to lose one, I would likely go through a crisis of identity. I'm sure others who have struggled with breast cancer have done the same.

Thank you for your thoughtful words, my brother. Have a great evening.

 

[ContentInHim]

I voted "unsure" as I believe that some women will need reconstructive surgery after cancer.

 

[Merciel]

I support breast implants in the same way I support everything else that Christians do to feel good about their appearance (wearing colorful and elegant clothes, wearing makeup, combing their hair, shaving, piercings, etc.). In other words, it shouldn't be overdone.

 

[Flashskeletal]

To all people:

There seems to be many people voting and posting without taking the time to understand and comprehend what I am arguing for. For example, those people who have voted unsure because they believe in reconstructive surgery – you do not accurately understand the question at issue. The vote is focused on plastic surgery, not reconstructive. Please re-read my first post and pay special attention to the last paragraph – I’m an advocate for reconstructive surgery. I am arguing against breast implants as a non-health issue. Because you are not understanding the issue your posting and voting seems odd.

Tamiink:

Like you, I also am enjoying this conversation. One good aspect of the internet is that it is a medium to have important conversations that might be embarrassing in person.

For the most part, your post makes sense to me. As a male, I can understand the importance of breasts to women. However, I disagree that they are the most important difference between a male and female. There are other physical aspects (e.g., pregnancies among women), along with spiritual, cognitive, and emotional differences. I am somewhat troubled with the perspective that breasts (and penises) are the most important difference between men and women. This thinking cuts both people into pieces relevant to body parts. I like to see the holistic aspects of masculinity and femininity. It is this ideology that causes healthly and good women who might have smaller breasts (A cup) to seek larger breasts for vanity reasons based on a warped idea of identity– and I find such actions as sad and contrary to the Saviors teachings. Do I make sense?

GoNoles:

I believe I implicitly answered your concerns in post 29 – please re-read my thoughts directed toward Oberland. In essence, I am argueing that as Christians there are many other aspects that share the same ideology and that Christians should debunk the entire appearance is important doctrine. We need to be healthy (e.g., exercise, brush teeth) to show respect toward God for the creation of our bodies – but we need to debunk actions that reinforce vanity and body competition.

Bliz:

I do not think there is anything creepy about a male who starts a post opposing breast implants. In fact, I think men are probably more responsibly for the big breasts equates real women discourse in society. And as such, men should be taking more men to task than women. Shouldn’t Christian men be standing up to such a topic?

However, I did come here to have meaningful dialogue and have my own thinking challenged. I do think I can learn from discussion with people who think the opposite. In essences, I’ve really struggled with Christians that support breast implants (both men and women) and have always wanted to really understand how their minds work via dialog and websites like these make it possible within a framework of Christian values (e.g., although talking about sexual aspects and body parts the topic can remain perverted free with no flirting. And by the way, I will leave this topic if any perverted language begins). If you think this is creepy – simply do not interact in the topic.

One last thing. I think my disdain for breast implants developed more from my mother having breast cancer and having to get a mastectomy. I was shocked at how difficult it was for her identity and probably internalized the idea that women are much more than breasts from watching her struggles. In regard to my wonderful wife – I honestly do not think her breasts have any relevance to my dislike for women who get breast implants or men who support it. It most likely is rooted in what I witnessed in my good mother – coupled with a few other experiences in life.

 

[*Starlight*]

I'm not against it... if someone wants to get such implants, then I don't see why they shouldn't get them.

 

[Flashskeletal]

Starjewel:

I guess the question I would pose back is what moral framework are you basing your decision on? Is it simply an individual one. In my mind, the moral framework of the gospel of Jesus Christ (e.g., Bible) make it very clear that breast implants are no acceptable when done for vanity reasons (not reconstructive). From a gospel perspective, having larger breasts to attract men, have a secure female ideitity, or have breast competition against other women seems too worldly. What is your moral framework?

To state it another way (to you and others), what I find troubling with your rationale is that it is too individualistic – it begins and ends with the self. And as a Christian I think we need to think beyond the self, see how our individual decisions affect the larger community, and act as the Savior would act. He did not seem to be focused on making himself happy (with body modification)– he seemed to be aware of others and tried to help others. Also, by not standing up to societal norms – such as “real” women have larger breasts – we allow societal norms to grow.

I see this issue as one that denotes a situation where a group of individuals, each acting in their own individual best interest (e.g., breast implants), find that the collective effect of their independently logical actions is actually a societal negative (e.g., reinforcement of a societal norm that “real” women have larger breasts, women are sex objects, and those women with smaller breasts are “less than”). I am looking through a Christian sociological lens, not an individual lens focused on the self. I would challenge you (and others) to see this issue from a sociological Christian lens and what the societal damage is to women and men who get socialized toward desiring larger breasts – such as breast competition among women, men desiring women with larger breasts, women with smaller breasts feeling less than, men being socialized into a bigness identity, and so forth.