After the Thousand Years (An Interpretation of Rev. 20:7-10)

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Straightshot

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Satan's binding?

Take the Lord's word for the explanation [Revelation 20:1-3]

He will be placed in chains of darkness for 1000 years .... where the beast and false prophet were [Jude 1:6; Revelation 19:20; 20:10] .... and his next venture after the 1000 years .... into the fire
 
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jwmealy

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Exactly how fallen angels are bound is not revealed to me in detail, but I believe that if we look at scripture we can sort of understand that there is a stand off that prevails between Angels from preventing one another from manifesting their works whether good or evil. Let us look at the following example:

Daniel 10:12-14
Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

In the above verse we are told that Gabriel wanted to deliver the message from day one to Daniel, but then we are informed by Gabriel that his delay was due to a stand off that happened between him and the prince of the Persian Kingdom. The prince of the Persian Kingdom is the symbol of the devil who stood opposed to the delivery of the message in what is a stalemate, until Michael another mighty angel came to assist Gabriel in the stand off in helping Gabriel to finally deliver the message.

It seems that this stand off is like chest play and Gabriel was put into a check position placing the Kingdom of God at a high risk category if he was to make another move, so in that case this move was beyond his play and therefore he would require a higher authority to make that executive decision and he waited in the stalemate within his limited moves, until Michael moved to threaten the position of the prince of the Persian Kingdom and then and only then the devil would yield his position and allow Gabriel to continue to deliver the message. Notice also 21 days are 7 7 7 which symbolises the timing of intervention requiring God to step in whilst other moves are being played out on earth during those 21 days, so that the correct window is openned at that particular time to make the move and not one day before or one day after.

How this is manifesting in the angelic realm I have absolutely no idea but all I have to go by is analogy of a chest board that is at play that encompasses timing which is crucial to which side gains advantage over the other in this play of good versus evil.
I'm willing to grant you, for the sake of argument, that there is a kind of stand-off going on, and that the devil is only bound in the sense that he is unable to make certain moves. That doesn't really match the symbolism of the devil being not only imprisoned and sealed in the underworld (where one would have thought he would have no access to people living on earth, so as to deceive them) and even being chained up within the prison. But I grant you, for the purposes of this discussion, that he is only bound in the sense of being hampered from doing certain things ("making certain moves") that he might like to do. According to the text of Rev. 20:1-3 and 20:7-10, what move or moves is he forbidden in this age from making?
 
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Straightshot

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"According to the text of Rev. 20:1-3 and 20:7-10, what move or moves is he forbidden in this age from making?"


Satan is restrained by the Lord's holy spirit ... but this does not prevent him from deceiving humans [2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7] .... if Satan were allowed he would obliterate humanity into extinction

When the Lord removes a measure of restraint, Satan will then be allowed to present his mimic to those who have refused to believe the truth about the Lord

Then after the tribulation the Lord will increase His restraint to the extent that the devil will not be able to engage humanity for 1000 years .... He will toss him into the abyss

Then the Lord will release him from the abyss to test the mortals of His millennial kingdom .... Satan's last ditch change to cause another human rebellion .... and this time will be the lake of fire time for Satan .... the devil will be destroyed forever
 
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jwmealy

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Berean777 and Ebedmelech,

I hope you will not allow yourselves to be distracted by repetitive comments by others who have already fully expressed their views. Let's see if we can have a careful discussion that increases our understanding of one another's views and--much better--of the scriptures.
 
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"The proof of Satan's current binding is the number of people who believe the Gospel of justification in Christ."


Tell us how many .... there are 8 billion people on the earth today .... what is your quota?

Don't let that roaring lion deceive you .... he still can

.... looks like he has already done a number on you?
 
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Berean777

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Let's stop right there.

The reign of Christ began after His resurrection. Please explain how Jesus has "ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH" as Matthew 28:18 says...and explain how He isn't reigning looking at Ephesians 1:18-22 as Paul speaks to the Ephesian saints:
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Explain how what Jesus and Paul said is not the case since Christ was raised.

You misunderstood me I believe.

Christ Jesus when he ascended up on high into his Father's house Heavenly New Jerusalem along with the firstfruits (144,000) the old covenant saints who were waiting for him in the first place, started to reign in the heavenly millennium Kingdom at the close of the old covenant age.

Scripture clearly explains this event happened in the 1sr century.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

John is given a door into heaven to view what is established after the devil was bound and the first beast was slain. We picture the heavenly court in session with both groups the old covenant who are said to be beheaded for the WORD OF GOD and the new covenant who were beheaded for the WITNESS OF JESUS.

John is shown that the courtroom of God with his heavenly, kingly 24 judgers who are the 24 elders spoken of throughout John's revelation are now in session to start judgement proceedings for all the peoples from all the nations of the world, who depart one by one to then come before the judgment seat of Christ. That is why the Lord is declared to be the King of kings, as we note that this kingly jury have crowns that they throw down before the Lord's feet. The 24 earthly judgers were a passing shadow of the greater thrones that would sit on the right and left side of Christ as his 24 heavenly, kingly jury.

When this happened during John's time and at the time the first beast was slain and satan was bound, the millennium commenced and so did also the long awaited resurrection of the dead that is called the first resurrection and the beginning of the reaping from the great harvest of God which continues to this day. That is why Jesus would say that after his ascension those who die in the Lord from hence forward will not taste death but will immediately migrate in a twinkling of an eye from their mortal life to their eternal life as one of the many hosts of heaven, the holy ones that are depicted as the symbol of the White cloud that Christ rides with into battle.

This theological understand is confirmed in the Chronology of Revelation 14 as follows:

The firstfruits (144,000) are the first to be reaped from the great harvest of God and then immediately following their ascension with Christ after his resurrection (Matthew 27:52-53) the three angel message are announced and then and only then does the everlasting gospel go out to the gentile nations of the world.nthen the announced that the first beast Babylon the great is fallen (70AD). This is all happening during the first century.

There is also an urgent call at this time to start reaping from the harvest of God because the harvest is rip. This earmarks the period of the first resurrections that encompasses the time, time and half a time (millennium).

The same words that Jesus said to those standing near him will not taste death after seeing the son of man entering his heavenly Kingdom reiterates the same message:

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The above verse is pointing to the time of the reaping of the harvest of God where the departed in Christ now don't need to wait for the messiah like the old covenant believers their eternal inheritance awaits them after they die and come before Christ and his heavenly jury to receive the rewards according to their works.

The message of reaping is an urgent call to begin reaping hence the commencement of reaping throughout the new covenant age where the two symbolic witnesses are preaching the gospel to the gentile nations of the world.

The call to start reaping is called twice in Rev 14:15 for the wheat and in Rev 14:18-19 for the TARES.

The beginning of Christ's heavenly Kingdom begins and continues throughout the new covenant age as those departing are being counted in Christ's numbers in his inner measured court (group of redeemed).

Revelation 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.


This group mentioned in the verse above have passed from death onto eternal life to be with Christ in his heavenly measured inner court. They are measured because they are redeemed and counted amongst Christ's heavenly numbers through the first resurrection that encompasses the time, time and half a time period allotted for the two symbolic witnesses to preach the gospel to the unbelieving gentile people of the world. So throughout this millennium reign in the new covenant age, new covenant people who are departing in the outer unmeasured court, meaning yet to be redeemed and counted amongst Christ's heavenly numbers, are migrating through death and onto resurrection into the inner court.

Revelation 11:2-3
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Notice the outer court which is our earthly realm as compared to the heavenly realm of the inner court. The outer court is without the temple, meaning without the risen Lord because the Lord in the inner heavenly court is the temple (Rev 21:22).

The two symbolic witnesses is Christianity the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 11th hour workmen who came and still are preaching the gospel to the entire world in sackcloth which is the symbol of MINISTRY. They are preaching the gospel for 1260 symbolic days or 42 symbolic months which encompasses the last remaining half of Daniel's 70th week, the 3.5 symbolic days remaining. This preaching is going on while the heavenly millennium reign continues forever until they finish their testimony where the gospel is known by all the world. Then between 1260 to 1290 symbolic days apostasy or falling away occurs and at the 1290 symbolic days the beast of the bottomless pit aka Lucifer the seventh resurrected head of the healed first beast emerges after he has sanctioned his servants to kill the true church in the world wide martyrdom. The remaining elect that go into hiding survive the cosmic onslaught from God between 1290 to 1335 symbol days.

Revelation 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

We come to the knowledge that during the Christianity for the last almost 2000 years and counting as the symbol of the two witnesses is preaching the gospel the remaining half of Daniel's 70 week is hinted at in the following versus.

Revelation 11:9
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

This 3.5 symbolic days of Daniel's remaining half of the 70th week shows that during the new covenant age the unbelieving world has resentment towards Christian missionaries far and wide and puts many of them to death and leaves them as examples before their peoples as a deterrent to accept these missionaries in their homes. This is historically proven throughout not the last 2000 years and even today in some countries they parade Christians bodies as a booty and deterant. Look at the Middle East and Africa amongst the least.


Revelation 11:11
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Notice after 3.5 symbolic days doesn't mean after but is implying a duration whilst these witnesses are being martyred the TARES who are also departing are seeing the them being raised where as they are condemned to eternal darkness just like the rich man and Lazarus. So in the after life there is no time significance so the author uses after meaning during. This millennium encompasses the separation of the sheep and goats and the giats throughout the time, time and half a time are seeing these witnesses being raised whilst they are left dead and naked spirits who are in fear and gnashing their teeth in darkness.

This following verse throws many people of:

the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

It is a spiritual Sodom (lawlessness) and a spiritual Egypt (idolatry) and so this would encompass the whole world and not just a specific location. The Lord was also crucified by a city of lawlessness and idolatry in the same way many Christians have been martyred.
 
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Berean777

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The proof of Satan's current binding is the number of people who believe the Gospel of justification in Christ.

You have a good point as well because it states that the daily sacrifice is replaced by the Abomination that maketh desolate.

The daily sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins is the works on the cross that justify us and so long as people have that in heart and mind then they have remission of sins by the power of the cross.

However when the Abomination that maketh desolate comes he removes this daily sacrifice and so he becomes the focal point of worship in the never ending saga of the question of worship.

As I had previously stated posts I believe the only way this is possible is if people actually believe it in their minds and hearts that there is an earthly messiah manifest in flesh and that would project their hearts and minds away from the justifying works of the cross and on the living object of worship who is the abomination that maketh desolate.

It has to be satan pretending to be messiah on earth because Christ came and went and said follow me from death onto eternal life and so all that remains is the devil coming to have his time on earth so to speak.
 
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Berean777

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My comment

It is obvious that Satan is bound just after the battle of Armageddon which has not yet taken place [Revelation 19:11-21; 20:1-3]

The devil is still the "god" of this world as we speak .... this roaring Lion is still at large and would like to deceive people into thinking that he is not [1 Peter 5:8]

Those that believe otherwise are being deceived

Yes that battle ended with the first beast going down in flames.
 
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jwmealy

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The proof of Satan's current binding is the number of people who believe the Gospel of justification in Christ.
First off, there is no indication at all in the text of Rev. 20:1-3 and 20:7-10 that what the devil is being bound from doing is keeping anyone from becoming a Christian. Secondly, elsewhere in the NT, there is teaching that the devil specifically has the power to deceive people so as to keep them from becoming Christians:
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor. 4:3-4).
So you don't think the devil is bound as regards all deception, but only deception that keeps people from believing in the gospel. Then again, he's not bound from keeping people from believing in the gospel, but only bound in relation to keeping those who eventually believe in the gospel from believing in the gospel. This is awfully weak tea compared with the dramatic, and more or less total, picture of imprisonment and helplessness that we see in Rev. 20:1-3. If someone whose position you disagreed with tried to make such a threadbare attempt at explaining a passage, you would no doubt say to them, "Aw, now you're just making stuff up."
 
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Berean777

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Berean777 and Ebedmelech,

Please note that it will not work to try to escape the contradiction explained in my post #410 on this thread by identifying the rebellion and attack after the thousand years are over (Rev. 20:7-10) with the career of the beast. If you do that, you run up against a contradiction just as total and radical as before: now those who were killed by the beast
rise from the dead and reign for a thousand years (20:4-6) before he ever comes on the scene to attack them.

Yes the church needs to be martyred before the beast comes on the scene, so that he stands unopposed. This doesn't mean the beast is not there after the testimony of the two symbolic witnesses is finished at the 1260 symbolic day marker, it just means he is kept hidden until his enemies which is the truth church is removed before he comes on the scene unopposed and scripture highlights this fact:

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed,

So he is instrumentally present after 1260 days using his servant to prepare his way. His servant is also mentioned and his job is to form a false unity of peace of the world religions and cause a chain effect of apostasy, which triggers an event that targets the true church through the false peace alliance.

Here he is:

2 Thessalonians 2:8-9
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The wicked who is revealed is the seventh king of the healed first beast who poses as earthly messiah and he is also the beast of the bottomless pit. Now satan according to Isaiah 14 is said to have been brought down to the sides of that pit. This is his prison that he was bound in and so the wicked is satan come in flesh.

If you remember John the Baptist was first sent to prepare the way for the true messiah to come. Satan in like has his own John the Baptist counterpart who prepares his way by laying the grounds for apostasy before he comes. This person is declared in verse 9 as EVEN HIM WHOSE COMING IS AFTER THE WORKING OF THE WICKED ONE WHO IS SATAN.

So the EVEN HE whose coming is after the wicked one satan aka beast of the bottomless pit starts the ball rolling at the 1260 day marker and then during the 1260 to 1290 period he turns on the true church and removes it by spiritual or literal means.

Now death as far as God is concerned is spiritual death because after they kill the body they cannot kill the soul. However the counterpart of the wicked one causes apostasy or falling away which renders those deceived by his tactic as having denied Christ and therefore discontinue the great commission according to the chapter of religious ecumenical tolerance and then by doing so he is spiritual plotting and causing their downfall without having to physical kill their bodies as such. That being said he will still turn on them brother against brother to perpetrate a world wide Calvary by the hands of those same people calling themselves Christians who ally with him with that final hour. This is why it write the following:

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in those CHRISTIANS that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send THOSE CHRISTIANS strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That THOSE CHRISTIANS all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

THE COUNTERPART OF THE WICKED ONE WILL MAKE CHRISTIAN TURN AGAINST CHRISTIAN IN BROTHER KILL BROTHER AFTER HE MANAGES TO PLOT THE DOWNFALL OF A MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS AND THEIR DENOMINATIONS.

This is where the second lamb like beast comes into play that established the first beast all over again. This lamb like beast is counterfeit Christian and pretending to be Christ like when it's agenda is earthly to establish the seat of the beast of the bottomless pit to come and reign from it.
 
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jwmealy

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Yes the church needs to be martyred before the beast comes on the scene, so that he stands unopposed. This doesn't mean the beast is not there after the testimony of the two symbolic witnesses is finished at the 1260 symbolic day marker, it just means he is kept hidden until his enemies which is the truth church is removed before he comes on the scene unopposed and scripture highlights this fact:

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed,

So he is instrumentally present after 1260 days using his servant to prepare his way. His servant is also mentioned and his job is to form a false unity of peace of the world religions and cause a chain effect of apostasy, which triggers an event that targets the true church through the false peace alliance.

Here he is:

2 Thessalonians 2:8-9
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The wicked who is revealed is the seventh king of the healed first beast who poses as earthly messiah and he is also the beast of the bottomless pit. Now satan according to Isaiah 14 is said to have been brought down to the sides of that pit. This is his prison that he was bound in and so the wicked is satan come in flesh.

If you remember John the Baptist was first sent to prepare the way for the true messiah to come. Satan in like has his own John the Baptist counterpart who prepares his way by laying the grounds for apostasy before he comes. This person is declared in verse 9 as EVEN HIM WHOSE COMING IS AFTER THE WORKING OF THE WICKED ONE WHO IS SATAN.

So the EVEN HE whose coming is after the wicked one satan aka beast of the bottomless pit starts the ball rolling at the 1260 day marker and then during the 1260 to 1290 period he turns on the true church and removes it by spiritual or literal means.

Now death as far as God is concerned is spiritual death because after they kill the body they cannot kill the soul. However the counterpart of the wicked one causes apostasy or falling away which renders those deceived by his tactic as having denied Christ and therefore discontinue the great commission according to the chapter of religious ecumenical tolerance and then by doing so he is spiritual plotting and causing their downfall without having to physical kill their bodies as such. That being said he will still turn on them brother against brother to perpetrate a world wide Calvary by the hands of those same people calling themselves Christians who ally with him with that final hour. This is why it write the following:

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in those CHRISTIANS that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send THOSE CHRISTIANS strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That THOSE CHRISTIANS all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

THE COUNTERPART OF THE WICKED ONE WILL MAKE CHRISTIAN TURN AGAINST CHRISTIAN IN BROTHER KILL BROTHER AFTER HE MANAGES TO PLOT THE DOWNFALL OF A MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS AND THEIR DENOMINATIONS.

This is where the second lamb like beast comes into play that established the first beast all over again. This lamb like beast is counterfeit Christian and pretending to be Christ like when it's agenda is earthly to establish the seat of the beast of the bottomless pit to come and reign from it.
This is all very complicated and clever in its own way, but it is plagued with self-contradictions.

(1) you have plotted the testimony of the true church and the thousand years and the career of the beast all onto the same age. This results in the devil being imprisoned so that he cannot deceive the nations so as to recruit them into attacking the "camp of the saints" (Rev. 20:1-3, 7-9), and, at the very same time, the devil using the beast with great success to recruit the nations into attacking the servants of Jesus, which, in your scheme, has to be identical to "the camp of the saints."
(2) you have doubled the career of the beast so that there is one version of the beast that occurs throughout the current age (i.e. his career of 42 months), and another career that happens after the end of the current age. There is no hint whatsoever in Rev. 20:7-10 that the beast is anywhere but already in the lake of fire. A theory that requires you to postulate doublings of things without appropriate textual support is an extremely weak theory. The beast, by the way, "comes up out of the abyss," which is to say, he returns from the underworld of the dead (Rom. 10:6-7), at the beginning of the 42 months, not after the end of them. This is what the symbolism of Rev. 13:1-3 is about.
 
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Berean777

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This is all very complicated and clever in its own way, but it is plagued with self-contradictions.

(1) you have plotted the testimony of the true church and the thousand years and the career of the beast all onto the same age. This results in the devil being imprisoned so that he cannot deceive the nations so as to recruit them into attacking the "camp of the saints" (Rev. 20:1-3, 7-9), and, at the very same time, the devil using the beast with great success to recruit the nations into attacking the servants of Jesus, which, in your scheme, has to be identical to "the camp of the saints."
(2) you have doubled the career of the beast so that there is one version of the beast that occurs throughout the current age (i.e. his career of 42 months), and another career that happens after the end of the current age. There is no hint whatsoever in Rev. 20:7-10 that the beast is anywhere but already in the lake of fire. A theory that requires you to postulate doublings of things without appropriate textual support is an extremely weak theory. The beast, by the way, "comes up out of the abyss," which is to say, he returns from the underworld of the dead (Rom. 10:6-7), at the beginning of the 42 months, not after the end of them. This is what the symbolism of Rev. 13:1-3 is about.

1) Rev 20:7-9 is post 1290 days, the church gets martyred between 1260 to 1290 before the wicked one is revealed. When he is revealed there is still a remaining elect that have been taken by angels to their chambers in Isaiah 26:20 to be protected from the cosmic onslaught. Satan the wicked one is aroused to find them and erase them of the face of the planet. Might I add a dying planet resembling an open grave yard.

These last remaining elect are cornered by the beast and his armies who encircle them. These are the last good tasting wine to the wedding supper of the lamb. Scripture says they are blessed because:

Daniel 12:12
And blessed are those who wait and remain until the end of the 1,335 days

So between 1260 and 1290 the main church is taken out of the way before the wicked one is revealed on 1290 and then from 1290 and 1335 God rains down terror upon those that slaughtered the church and those remaining elect are protected by angels who take them to one of a few habitable zone on the planet. The vessels that take them there are also their protection just before the rain of terror from God.

2) the first beast recieved his power from the symbol of the red dragon who is the devil and so red symbolises persecution whereby the first century church is the pregnant women who struggled to deliver the gospel (the child) into the world because the false Pharisaical prophet system that was led by Saint Paul was using the head of the first beast to chase those who had the testimony of Jesus, from city to city and town to town to stop the gospel from being spread. John declare the best fallen and the everlasting gospel finds it way into the rest of the world because the first beast is taken out in 70AD.

The future healed first beast is the same seat as the first and the establishing of the beast comes by the second beast who is lamb like meaning Christian and this must be in the future and this second beast uses political powers to rain down fire upon any one who threatens the newly established first beast seat. Now all that awaits this healed first beast is the seventh king who is the devil coming in person to personally finish the job that the initial first best and false prophet failed to do. He comes as th earthly Jewish messiah, but before he comes he must take out the true church that holds him back from being revealed. If he came when the true church is still here they will quickly expose him.
 
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Straightshot

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My comment

The current setting with regard to the understanding of the Bible's exegetical sequence is in shambles .... and that should be obvious by reading this forum .... and this is no different than anywhere else

We are approaching the ending of this present age and the ideas of men on the subject are all over the place .... this confusion is not going to go away

So if anyone on this forum thinks they can straighten the path, it is not going to happen

There are so many set religious persuasions, self serving pied pipers, and even satanic deceptions built into the professing church today that it is way beyond sanity

The only remedy is to study one's self approved and stop listening to the roar of the street

.... this is possible .... the Lord has said that He would lead the serious seeking man into all truth .... and He did not give His revealings to create confusion

The man who has been bogged down by listening to the roar of those who think they know needs a reset button .... a make over .... back to the drawing board even if it means dumping all that has been taken on and starting from scratch

The bed rock of the Lord's requirement is for a man to realize his need for salvation, and then seek Him alone for truth .... there is no other way
 
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jwmealy

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1) Rev 20:7-9 is post 1290 days, the church gets martyred between 1260 to 1290 before the wicked one is revealed. When he is revealed there is still a remaining elect that have been taken by angels to their chambers in Isaiah 26:20 to be protected from the cosmic onslaught. Satan the wicked one is aroused to find them and erase them of the face of the planet. Might I add a dying planet resembling an open grave yard.
Let me say first that John gives us no indication in the text of Revelation that tells us to make any distinction between the 1260 days of Rev. 11:3 and 12:6, the "time, times, and half a time" of Rev. 12:14, Dan. 7:25, and Dan. 12:7, and the 42 months of Rev. 11:2 and 13:5.

He also gives us no indication that we are to see two Satanic beasts (not counting the false prophet) who persecute the faithful at entirely different times. On the contrary, when John sees the beast for the first time in Rev. 13:1, he is instantly given to understand that it is returning from the realm of the dead. He sees it coming up out of the sea--which closely connected to the abyss in the OT (Heb. tehowm, Strong's #H8415), which is itself associated with the realm of the dead: see Exod. 15:5; Ps. 71:20; Ezek. 26:19; Jonah 2:5. The sea is, of course, explicitly named as a realm of the dead in Rev. 20:13. The symbolism of rising from the sea in 13:1 has indeed already been pre-interpreted in 11:7 when the beast is mentioned for the first time as "the beast that comes up out of the abyss" (the realm of the dead, see Rom. 10:7). See also Rev. 17:8. Among the first words of John's description are these: "One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed" (Rev. 13:3a). This is a third indication in Revelation that the beast at least pretends to be slain and resurrected. This resurrection, or at least pseudo-resurrection, seems indeed to be the very thing that gets the world's attention and makes them think he is invincible: "and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, 'Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?' ” (Rev. 13:3b)

The very next thing that is said of this from-the-abyss, from-the-sea, apparently-slain-and-resurrected beast is "5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months." (Rev. 13:5)

So you don't get any presentation of a first career of the beast that lasts 42 months, followed by his death, a long reign of Christ and the holy ones in heaven, then a resurrection and the whole thing all over again. There is one beast, whose 42 month career is presented as beginning when he has his apparent resurrection. William of Occam used to say, "Do not multiply entities without necessity." You seem to have doubled the 42 months (so that it covers the career of the first of your hypothetical two Satanic beasts, and it also covers the thousand year period which must logically follow this period--since it is those who are slain by the beast who reign for the thousand years), and you have doubled the beast, without necessity. The text reads just fine without all of this doubling, and it reads poorly with it. Please don't bring in Daniel to muddy the waters here. We need to concentrate on what John does and does not tell us.
These last remaining elect are cornered by the beast and his armies who encircle them. These are the last good tasting wine to the wedding supper of the lamb. Scripture says they are blessed because: Daniel 12:12 And blessed are those who wait and remain until the end of the 1,335 days
So here you think you see a second version of the beast--a resurrected one--surrounding the remaining faithful after there has been a nearly total holocaust of Christians on earth which your chronology plots during (right before the close of) the thousand year period when the devil is supposed to be bound in the abyss. That is utterly contradictory. Not only is the presence of the beast not even slightly hinted in the scene 20:7-10; not only is there is not the slightest hint of a prior persecution; but there is also not the slightest hint of any success on the devil's part in attacking the holy ones. All of this fits very badly with the text. Indeed, if we understand, as John clearly intends us to understand, that Rev. 20:7-10 is a vision of the same thing Isaiah prophesies in Isa. 26:10-11 and 27:1-5 (John carefully trains us to make this association by his wording), then this provides solid confirmation that the would-be attackers are utterly destroyed before they can lay so much as a finger on the "camp of the saints and the Holy City" (Rev. 20:9 || Isa. 26:1, 10-11 [note this reference has been edited to correct it from 26:1], 26:19--27:1). It is the resurrected faithful and holy ones in the New Jerusalem that the devil and all the unrepentant attempt to attack. And if you're wondering, yes, in my view Rev. 21:1-2 describes, in wedding symbolism, Christ's coming again in glory with his holy ones to reign on the earth. Rev. 21:1-2 reveals in a vision that which John heard in an audition in 19:6-9.
So between 1260 and 1290 the main church is taken out of the way before the wicked one is revealed on 1290 and then from 1290 and 1335 God rains down terror upon those that slaughtered the church and those remaining elect are protected by angels who take them to one of a few habitable zone on the planet. The vessels that take them there are also their protection just before the rain of terror from God.
This is irrelevant to the issues we are discussing. If I had to guess, I would say that the gap between 1290 and 1335 is the gap between the destruction of the beast's kingdom, Babylon the Great, and the battle of Har Magedon. The entire gap, starting with the destruction of Babylon and ending with the coming of Christ in glory with his holy ones, would be encompassed in the seventh bowl. But none of this has any weight in relation to the key issues here.
2) the first beast recieved his power from the symbol of the red dragon who is the devil and so red symbolises persecution
Could be, but doesn't weigh anything one way or the other in the argument.
whereby the first century church is the pregnant women who struggled to deliver the gospel (the child) into the world
There is no evidence for identifying the child with the gospel. The gospel, for that matter, is not, has not, and will not ever be kept in heaven in order to protect it from the devil. For this entire age, the gospel is always present on the earth, and its messengers are human beings (followers of Jesus) who testify here on the earth with their words and their very bodies (esp. 12:11).
John declare the best fallen and the everlasting gospel finds it way into the rest of the world (14:6) because the first beast is taken out in 70AD.
There is no indication at all in the text of 14:6 that the beast is fallen. Babylon falls, but we find out later that this is because the beast, its king, is going to betray her and switch sides, and make common cause with her enemies, the kings of the east (Rev. 17:16-18). The beast himself will not be defeated (and, indeed, completely and finally destroyed in the lake of fire) until the battle of Har Magedon, Rev. 19:14-21.
The future healed first beast is the same seat as the first and the establishing of the beast comes by the second beast who is lamb like meaning Christian and this must be in the future and this second beast uses political powers to rain down fire upon any one who threatens the newly established first beast seat. Now all that awaits this healed first beast is the seventh king who is the devil coming in person to personally finish the job that the initial first best and false prophet failed to do. He comes as th earthly Jewish messiah, but before he comes he must take out the true church that holds him back from being revealed. If he came when the true church is still here they will quickly expose him.
This part is too vague and garbled to comment on. I can't tell what you are saying.
 
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BABerean2

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Could be, but doesn't weigh anything one way or the other in the argument.

From Berean777
"whereby the first century church is the pregnant women who struggled to deliver the gospel (the child) into the world"

.......................................................................
There is no evidence for identifying the child with the gospel. The gospel, for that matter, is not, has not, and will not ever be kept in heaven in order to protect it from the devil. For this entire age, the gospel is always present on the earth, and its messengers are human beings (followers of Jesus) who testify here on the earth with their words and their very bodies (esp. 12:11).

Based solely on the text, it seems that the first part of Revelation chapter 12 is the history of the struggle between Satan, God, and the Church (Christ).

The man-child who will rule with a rod of iron, who has been caught up to God, is clearly a reference to Christ.

Have you ever considered that the reference to the 3 1/2 years in this chapter could be a reference to the time Joseph and Mary spent in Egypt with the baby Jesus to escape the persecution of Herod, who was acting in some ways on behalf of Satan attempting to kill Jesus?

We also know based on two references, some of the angels have already been cast down and bound.



2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Therefore, it seems likely the evil angels and Satan were cast down in the past, instead of some future event here.
Again, I am attempting to throw off all preconceived notions and only look at the text.

Another thing to consider is the fact that the 7th angel sounded at the end of the last chapter, which is the end of the battle.





Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,


Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This passage is a reference to the battle of Armageddon.


 
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