Affirmative Action, Racial Discrimination Against Non-Minorities?

[NotreDame]

Hey, it's also cool with me if you want to continue to blame me for your blunders, including the ones you made right here. Thanks for the lulz.

My blunders? You cite to an article contradicting a claim you made. You clearly do not understand why the article contradicts your claim.

You comment upon the case of Fisher v Texas, when you clearly are not familiar with the facts of the case. You raise factual issues which weren’t the basis of the lawsuit.

Those are your documented errors. I’ll take the blame for not really known what your taking about but want to pretend and convey to others you do. It’s cool.

 

[Go Braves]

No. No. How many times can you repeat this non-sense?

They admitted students with both inferior test scores and grades. If grades and test scores kept her out, then logically grades and test scores should have kept out students with grades and test scores below hers.

You made a cause and effect argument. X, where X is mediocre test score and mediocre grades, were the cause for not being admitted.

Ok, well logically if X is the cause, then it stands to reason applicants with inferior test scores and inferior grades to Ms. Fisher are also denied admission. After all, they have a identical characteristic to Ms. Fisher, which are test scores and grades not worthy of admission since they doomed Ms. Fisher.

Hence, the fact they accepted students with the same mediocrity as Ms. Fisher or mediocrity, means Ms. Fisher wasn’t denied admission on the basis of her mediocre grades and test scores.

The article contradicts the notion mediocrity doomed her since mediocrity didn’t doom other students.

Furthermore, the article isn’t really about her mediocre grades and test scores denying her admission but instead the article, taken as a WHOLE, seeks to refute any notion race was the determinative factor.

I realized the futility of continuing to read your post at the word nonsense spelled as "non-sense." Carry on with whatever failed comprehension of my posts pleases you.

 

[Go Braves]

My blunders? You cite to an article contradicting a claim you made. You clearly do not understand why the article contradicts your claim.

You comment upon the case of Fisher v Texas, when you clearly are not familiar with the facts of the case. You raise factual issues which weren’t the basis of the lawsuit.

Those are your documented errors. I’ll take the blame for not really known what your taking about but want to pretend and convey to others you do. It’s cool.

Yep, your blunders and your pretense. You clearly do not understand why the article contradicts you're claim. The factual issues raised are relevant to the basis of the lawsuit.

There actually is a deliberate blunder in this post, for the sake of lulz, but I'm doubtful you'll be able to correctly identify it.

 

[Ringo84]

CQPRESS

Affirmative Action and College Admissions
Should racial and ethnic preferences continue?

By Tom Price November 17, 2017 Volume 27, Issue 41

The Supreme Court has upheld the use of race in college admissions, but affirmative action is facing new challenges. Many whites continue to oppose giving preference to minorities to compensate for discrimination and to diversify campuses, and the Trump administration says it may sue universities practicing intentional discrimination. Several critics question affirmative action's effectiveness, citing minorities' continued under-representation at elite universities. But affirmative action's defenders say it has helped raise minority representation on campuses, and that most universities rely on a holistic admissions approach that looks at applicants' public service, creativity and other attributes, as well as race. Georgetown and other schools are pursuing innovative ways to diversify their student bodies, such as admitting the descendants of slaves owned by their institutions. Meanwhile, activist Edward Blum has filed numerous suits challenging laws and policies that favor minorities over whites.

Overview

Abigail Fisher is an unassuming 27-year-old from Sugar Land, Texas, who played the cello and dreamed of attending the University of Texas at Austin, the alma mater of her sister and father.

She also is at the center of a legal storm involving affirmative action. For the past nine years, Fisher has maintained that the university rejected her application in 2008 because she is white, in violation of the U.S. Constitution. Her lawsuit twice landed at the U.S. Supreme Court, most recently producing the landmark 2016 ruling that the school could treat race as a relevant feature within the broader context of a candidate's application.

Nevertheless, Fisher and an advocacy group backing her, Students for Fair Admissions, filed a new lawsuit in late June in state court, arguing that the university's use of racial preferences in admissions violates state law and the Texas Constitution.

It really says something about certain people when they see minorities having a chance to go to school to better themselves as """racism""" against them.

It - it's almost like....equality isn't a zero-sum game and that more rights going to minorities doesn't mean that "whites" are under attack.
Ringo

 

[Truth7t7]

It really says something about certain people when they see minorities having a chance to go to school to better themselves as """racism""" against them.

It - it's almost like....equality isn't a zero-sum game and that more rights going to minorities doesn't mean that "whites" are under attack.
Ringo

It really says something when "Race" is removed from the qualification, all Americans Lives Matter.

 

[Ringo84]

It really says something about certain people when they think that saying "[minority] Lives Matter" is somehow implying that theirs don't.
Ringo

 

[Truth7t7]

It really says something about certain people when they think that saying "[minority] Lives Matter" is somehow implying that theirs don't.
Ringo

"All American Lives Matter"

Remove Discriminatory Affirmative Action From America.

 

[Ringo84]

* American = narrowly defined by what I consider to be American, which is usually white, straight, middle-class, and Protestant.

** "Discriminatory" Affirmative Action = 'white people losing their monopoly on political and social power'.
Ringo

 

[Shiloh Raven]

* American = narrowly defined by what I consider to be American, which is usually white, straight, middle-class, and Protestant.

** "Discriminatory" Affirmative Action = 'white people losing their monopoly on political and social power'.
Ringo

QFT. And since when have "All American Lives" mattered in America? If all American lives mattered then there wouldn't have been a dire need for Affirmative Action or the Civil Rights Movement in the first place or a need for all the social justice and civil rights groups that operate in America today.

 

[Go Braves]

I agree 100%, as they did state "Race" was a deciding factor, and five "Minority" students with lower "Test Scores" & "Grades" were accepted.

If one "Minority" was accepted that scored lower, she has a case, she has five based upon "Race".

Good response, I see it as you do.

Even if Abigail Fisher, the sulky white gal who sued, had gotten every single dang point available as part of the Personal Achievement Factor, I think she still would have been rejected on account of how she simply didn't deserve to get in. The school pointed out how her GPA & her SAT scores were poor in comparison to the other applicants. She didn't even get a 1200 on her SAT & had an unimpressive GPA. It's amazing to me she had the gall to even think she could get into Texas, much less the audacity to act entitled to getting in. She was a legacy, seemed to think that on account of her daddy going there she ought to get in too. Her daddy was the one who was connected to the rich lawyer who bankrolled the lawsuit. Remember how not long back Laura Ingraham made a fool of herself deriding David Hogg, a Parkland survivor, for sharing that he'd been rejected by several colleges? Not Harvard or Stanford, what have you, but UCs more on par with UT. Well, he's white. He has a MUCH better GPA than this gal. Better SAT score too. As an out of state applicant he was a disadvantage. He had applied to UT, then the top 7% automatic admission wouldn't apply to him on account of being from outside of Texas. So he would have been competing with the likes of the Texans who failed to earn automatic admission like this white gal for the leftover spots.

There many more black & Latino students who had better scores, better grades than her, & didn't get in either. They had more dignity so they didn't sue.

 

[Go Braves]

Well... well... now the real truth is finally being told and poor little Abigail Fisher wasn't discriminated against because she is white. I wonder why she's been lying about being discriminated against.

I think her family put it into her head that she'd been discriminated against. Her dad & sister had gone to UT. I think she was just under the assumption from the time she was knee high to a grasshopper that she'd get in, too. That makes me less sympathetic for her, on account of how if this was something she really wanted for so long, she should have worked harder to earn it. Her GPA & SAT didn't reflect that.
In reading about the gal I found out that her daddy was an acquaintance of the fellow who bankrolled the lawsuit. There were plenty of minorities who had higher grades, higher SAT scores, but also didn't get into UT that year, but they didn't have the entitled attitude or the funds to pursue a lawsuit over it.

 

[NotreDame]

I realized the futility of continuing to read your post at the word nonsense spelled as "non-sense." Carry on with whatever failed comprehension of my posts pleases you.

Yes, it is futile because you do not know enough about the topic. It is evident when posts, like the one above, focus on extraneous matters, such as the much maligned autocorrect on my phone, as opposed to the facts.

The problem has been your commentary on facts and issues you clearly lack sufficient knowledge of to discuss.

 

[NotreDame]

Yep, your blunders and your pretense. You clearly do not understand why the article contradicts you're claim. The factual issues raised are relevant to the basis of the lawsuit.

There actually is a deliberate blunder in this post, for the sake of lulz, but I'm doubtful you'll be able to correctly identify it.

Nope. More obfuscation.

You said Ms. Fisher’s mediocre record kept her from being admitted. Yet, we know a considerable number were admitted who had lower test scores and lower grades.

It is illogical to claim, as you do, Fisher’s grades and test scores doomed her admission when they accepted 42 people with lower test scores and lower grades than Fisher. This is a claim which has not been rebutted by you or the article.

Here is a parallel example of the absurdity of your position.

1. Fisher was denied entry because she writes with her right hand.
2. Fisher is ambidextrous (has better grades and test scores than the 42 other applicants, i.e., she can write with her left hand).
3. The university admitted 42 people who write with their right hand. (The 42 who have lower grades and test scores, i.e. they cannot write with left hand but write with their right hand).
4. Therefore, Fisher was denied because she writes with her right hand.

That’s your argument. It is an illogical argument. It’s illgiical to say:

Fisher was denied because of X. X=mediocre grades and mediocre test scores.

42 other applicants which share Fisher’s characteristic of X were admitted. This is an odd outcome since they have the same characteristic of X.

Logically, if having X characteristic was the cause for being denied entry for one, then we’d expect to see denial for others with X characteristic. But this didn’t happen, which weakens your claim that X, mediocre grades, is why she was denied admission.

To compound your weak claim of a causal relationship, there were a considerable number of admitted applicants with -X characteristic, let
-X= lower test scores and lower grades than Fisher.

Again, logically, if Fisher’s mediocre grades and mediocre test scores doomed her admission, then it stands to reason applicants with WORSE THAN her mediocre test scores and mediocre grades would also be denied entry. This did not occur. Once again, weakening your already tenuous claim her mediocre grades and test scores imperiled her admission.

Here are some facts about her case clearly foreign to you:

1. She brought an equal protection claim
2. She challenged the school’s use of a “holistic” approach in evaluating the admission of students who did not qualify for admission under the 10% plan.
3. Specifically, she challenged the use of race as a factor in the holistic methodology used by the university.
4. She alleged use of race as a factor violated the equal protection clause.

 

[NotreDame]

It really says something about certain people when they see minorities having a chance to go to school to better themselves as """racism""" against them.

It - it's almost like....equality isn't a zero-sum game and that more rights going to minorities doesn't mean that "whites" are under attack.
Ringo

Who are you addressing? Ms. Fisher didn’t make this argument. There’s no evidence she adheres to the view you just expressed above.

The post you quoted doesn’t take the view in your post.

Who are you addressing with your comments?

 

[Ringo84]

Who are you addressing? Ms. Fisher didn’t make this argument. There’s no evidence she adheres to the view you just expressed above.

The post you quoted doesn’t take the view in your post.

Who are you addressing with your comments?

I'm addressing those who think that affirmative action is somehow "reverse racism" against white people.
Ringo

 

[NotreDame]

Yep, your blunders and your pretense. You clearly do not understand why the article contradicts you're claim. The factual issues raised are relevant to the basis of the lawsuit.

There actually is a deliberate blunder in this post, for the sake of lulz, but I'm doubtful you'll be able to correctly identify it.

No. You have misread the article and have failed miserably to properly understand UT’s admission process for students not automatically admitted.

From the article: School officials say that this is where Fisher's mediocre grades and test scores really dinged her, Hannah-Jones writes: "[E]ven if Fisher received points for her race and every other personal achievement factor, the letter she received in the mail still would have said no.

First, it is important to observe the school official did not say Fisher's mediocre grades/test scores were the reason Fisher was denied entry. Neither did the school official suggest mediocre grades and test scores doomed Fisher's admission.

Rather, the author of the article, Anna Merlan, took journalistic license to inaccurately restate what was said, and it is Anna who is suggesting Fisher's grades/test scores kept Fisher from being admitted. The school officials did not use the word "dinged" but Anna Merlan chose this word. The language and wording that is quoted of school officials does not comport with Anna's use of the word "dinged."

In addition, the substance of the article, the facts about Fisher's case, and the facts cited in the article, and rational inferences drawn from those facts, do not support any conclusion Fisher's mediocre grades/test scores doomed her admission.

Here is the pivotal language again:

"[E]ven if Fisher received points for her race and every other personal achievement factor, the letter she received in the mail still would have said no.​

Ok. These remarks must be considered in relation to the admission process, otherwise, well, people will be doomed to make the same illogical claim you and Anna have made.

The school looked at:

1. Grades and test scores of the remaining applicants and

2. “personal achievement index," which ProPublica explains awarded points for two required essays, as well "leadership, activities, service and 'special circumstances.' Those included socioeconomic status of the student or the student's school, coming from a home with a single parent or one where English wasn't spoken. And race."

3. Grades and tests may receive points

4. PAI may receives points.

5. Apparently, the total points awarded for PAI is an accumulation of points of the sub factors comprising the PAI. "[E]ven if Fisher received points for her race and every other personal achievement factor." [/I]

5A.) The PAI has three scores: A.) 1 score for one essay, B.) 2nd score for the second essay and C.) A 3rd score for several factors of "demonstrated leadership qualities, extracurricular activities, honors and awards, work experience, community service, and special personal circumstances. As part of "special circumstances," the admissions process takes into consideration several sub-factors: the socioeconomic status of the family and the school, a single-parent home, whether languages other than English are spoken at home, family responsibilities, and race." Fisher v. Texas (District Court).

7. Apparently, all the factors and sub-factors may be awarded points in comprising the third total score of the PAI.

8. Of course, NO POINTS could be awarded.

7. Some factors could be awarded points while others are not. For instance: Grades/Test score=0 pts, PAI= Essay 1=0 pts, Essay 2= 1 pt, leadership=1 pt, Special circumstances: Race, 0 pts, socioeconomic status, 1pt, etcetera.

So, what can we deduce from the school official’s italicized comment above? The important language is the following:

"[E]ven if Fisher received points for her race and every other personal achievement factor, the letter she received in the mail still would have said no.
​

Does this lead to the conclusion Fisher's grades doomed her admission? No. With the foregoing information taken into consideration, it may be the case Fisher's overall score was inferior to the other applicants, specifically her PAI score.

For instance (hypothetical only based on officials remark), it could be the case Fisher's PAI point total was inferior to other applicants, including the minority applicants, so inferior that even awarding points to her for grades/test scores would not have made up for her deficient PAI score, which caused her to have a lower overall total score. In other words, the other applicants' PAI scores could have been 10, whereas Fisher's PAI score was 3, and that while her points for grades/tests exceeded the other applicants, she received 5 points for grades/tests, whereas other applicants received 2 for their inferior grades/tests, her total overall score is 8, while the total overall score is 12 for the other applicants.

The outcome described in the preceding paragraph is consistent with the school officials' italicized remarks above.

Another outcome, consistent with the school officials' commentary, is she could have been awarded a points for every factor in the PAI, her PAI may still have been below the other applicants, so low that any points for better grades/tests could not have made up the difference, thereby giving her a lower, total overall score.

So, it is not at all clear Fisher's mediocre test scores/grades doomed her admission. Quite simply, the author of the article took artistic license to reach a conclusion not supported by the facts or reasonable inferences from the facts. It's too bad you adopted the conclusion hastily drawn by the author.

There is one final outcome I would be remiss if I did not mention. The admissions board simply did not like Fisher as an applicant and this was entirely subjective. Consider:

"All 64 minority students with an AI score lower than Plaintiff Fisher's received admission to the school of Liberal Arts. Of those 64 admitted minority students, 14 received the same PAI score as Plaintiff Fisher and two received a lower PAI score than Plaintiff Fisher...

At that point a decision is made on a case by case basis whether to admit the applicant for the fall semester, the summer semester, or CAP. Id. The record shows both Plaintiffs' applications were given a second reading since UT offered them both admission to CAP."

According to Defendants, at least one African-American student with a better AI score and an equal or better PAI than either Plaintiff was denied admission to the school of Liberal Arts and at least one white student with a worse AI than the Plaintiffs and a comparable PAI was granted admission to the school of Liberal Arts." Fisher v. Texas
​

My point? It is difficult to conclude, when considering the many factors, such as the complexity of UT's admission process, the factors going into this process, the points awarded, etcetera, to conclude Fisher's mediocre grades doomed her admission.

Fisher v. Texas, 645 F. Supp. 2d 587, Fisher v. Texas, 556 F. Supp. 2d 603

 

[NotreDame]

I'm addressing those who think that affirmative action is somehow "reverse racism" against white people.
Ringo

Who are those people?

 

[Go Braves]

No. You have misread the article and have failed miserably to properly understand UT’s admission process for students not automatically admitted.

From the article: School officials say that this is where Fisher's mediocre grades and test scores really dinged her, Hannah-Jones writes: "[E]ven if Fisher received points for her race and every other personal achievement factor, the letter she received in the mail still would have said no.

First, it is important to observe the school official did not say Fisher's mediocre grades/test scores were the reason Fisher was denied entry. Neither did the school official suggest mediocre grades and test scores doomed Fisher's admission.

Rather, the author of the article, Anna Merlan, took journalistic license to inaccurately restate what was said, and it is Anna who is suggesting Fisher's grades/test scores kept Fisher from being admitted. The school officials did not use the word "dinged" but Anna Merlan chose this word. The language and wording that is quoted of school officials does not comport with Anna's use of the word "dinged."

In addition, the substance of the article, the facts about Fisher's case, and the facts cited in the article, and rational inferences drawn from those facts, do not support any conclusion Fisher's mediocre grades/test scores doomed her admission.

Here is the pivotal language again:

"[E]ven if Fisher received points for her race and every other personal achievement factor, the letter she received in the mail still would have said no.​

Ok. These remarks must be considered in relation to the admission process, otherwise, well, people will be doomed to make the same illogical claim you and Anna have made.

The school looked at:

1. Grades and test scores of the remaining applicants and

2. “personal achievement index," which ProPublica explains awarded points for two required essays, as well "leadership, activities, service and 'special circumstances.' Those included socioeconomic status of the student or the student's school, coming from a home with a single parent or one where English wasn't spoken. And race."

3. Grades and tests may receive points

4. PAI may receives points.

5. Apparently, the total points awarded for PAI is an accumulation of points of the sub factors comprising the PAI. "[E]ven if Fisher received points for her race and every other personal achievement factor." [/I]

5A.) The PAI has three scores: A.) 1 score for one essay, B.) 2nd score for the second essay and C.) A 3rd score for several factors of "demonstrated leadership qualities, extracurricular activities, honors and awards, work experience, community service, and special personal circumstances. As part of "special circumstances," the admissions process takes into consideration several sub-factors: the socioeconomic status of the family and the school, a single-parent home, whether languages other than English are spoken at home, family responsibilities, and race." Fisher v. Texas (District Court).

7. Apparently, all the factors and sub-factors may be awarded points in comprising the third total score of the PAI.

8. Of course, NO POINTS could be awarded.

7. Some factors could be awarded points while others are not. For instance: Grades/Test score=0 pts, PAI= Essay 1=0 pts, Essay 2= 1 pt, leadership=1 pt, Special circumstances: Race, 0 pts, socioeconomic status, 1pt, etcetera.

So, what can we deduce from the school official’s italicized comment above? The important language is the following:

"[E]ven if Fisher received points for her race and every other personal achievement factor, the letter she received in the mail still would have said no.
​

Does this lead to the conclusion Fisher's grades doomed her admission? No. With the foregoing information taken into consideration, it may be the case Fisher's overall score was inferior to the other applicants, specifically her PAI score.

For instance (hypothetical only based on officials remark), it could be the case Fisher's PAI point total was inferior to other applicants, including the minority applicants, so inferior that even awarding points to her for grades/test scores would not have made up for her deficient PAI score, which caused her to have a lower overall total score. In other words, the other applicants' PAI scores could have been 10, whereas Fisher's PAI score was 3, and that while her points for grades/tests exceeded the other applicants, she received 5 points for grades/tests, whereas other applicants received 2 for their inferior grades/tests, her total overall score is 8, while the total overall score is 12 for the other applicants.

The outcome described in the preceding paragraph is consistent with the school officials' italicized remarks above.

Another outcome, consistent with the school officials' commentary, is she could have been awarded a points for every factor in the PAI, her PAI may still have been below the other applicants, so low that any points for better grades/tests could not have made up the difference, thereby giving her a lower, total overall score.

So, it is not at all clear Fisher's mediocre test scores/grades doomed her admission. Quite simply, the author of the article took artistic license to reach a conclusion not supported by the facts or reasonable inferences from the facts. It's too bad you adopted the conclusion hastily drawn by the author.

There is one final outcome I would be remiss if I did not mention. The admissions board simply did not like Fisher as an applicant and this was entirely subjective. Consider:

"All 64 minority students with an AI score lower than Plaintiff Fisher's received admission to the school of Liberal Arts. Of those 64 admitted minority students, 14 received the same PAI score as Plaintiff Fisher and two received a lower PAI score than Plaintiff Fisher...

At that point a decision is made on a case by case basis whether to admit the applicant for the fall semester, the summer semester, or CAP. Id. The record shows both Plaintiffs' applications were given a second reading since UT offered them both admission to CAP."

According to Defendants, at least one African-American student with a better AI score and an equal or better PAI than either Plaintiff was denied admission to the school of Liberal Arts and at least one white student with a worse AI than the Plaintiffs and a comparable PAI was granted admission to the school of Liberal Arts." Fisher v. Texas
​

My point? It is difficult to conclude, when considering the many factors, such as the complexity of UT's admission process, the factors going into this process, the points awarded, etcetera, to conclude Fisher's mediocre grades doomed her admission.

Fisher v. Texas, 645 F. Supp. 2d 587, Fisher v. Texas, 556 F. Supp. 2d 603

Nope, I got things correct, but continue to consume your time writing out lengthy posts that actually don't refute the facts if it suits yourself.

 

[NotreDame]

Nope, I got things correct, but continue to consume your time writing out lengthy posts that actually don't refute the facts if it suits yourself.

No, you did not. There are NO facts in the article showing Fisher was denied entry because of her mediocre grades/test scores.

Even the school officials cited in the article say nothing to show Fisher was denied because of mediocre grades/test score. In fact, the school officials cited in the article do not say she was denied because of mediocre grades/test scores.

No facts in the article support your claim. None. Zero. Read the article again.

 

[Go Braves]

"All American Lives Matter"

Remove Discriminatory Affirmative Action From America.

Affirmative action has actually benefitted white folks as well as many other students in America.

Who’s benefiting from affirmative action? White men.

Research from Princeton University sociologists shows that Asian Americans need SAT scores 140 points higher than white students — when all other things are equal — to get into elite colleges. Asian American applicants are heavily overrepresented among high-achieving students, so the only way we can create balance on our campuses — or so the argument goes — is by limiting their admissions.

Ditto for teenage girls , who are outpacing boys in our secondary schools. As several recent studies have confirmed, high school girls study more — and, not surprisingly, get better grades — than high school boys do.

Though I did find out that at my university affirmative action still benefits female applicants, most of whom are white btw, on account of how we're still mainly male. Something like 65% male. A prof was saying that even in the 90s there were so few gals on campus, they had to make plans for social activities with an all-women's college an hour away. The gals would come all the way over for parties. Of course that didn't help out with classes where their input is valuable. I definitely think it's good to have both in the classroom. Not just on account of them being cute or what have you, but for what they offer. Now, the school didn't just open up the gates and let all the gals in. The standards for the ladies are still just as high. They need to have taken the classes to be ready, have the grades, scores, what have you. It was more that if a fellow & a gal were both equal in every way & they were down to splitting hairs, she'd be more likely to get in. I'm glad for that. It's bad enough that in my department we're still about 90% men. I want gals on the rest of the campus at least. On other campuses, the reverse was true. Especially for the colleges that used to be all-female, then started accepting fellows. For majors that used to be almost all-female like for elementary school teaching, nursing, being male helped out for a long while.