Affirmative Action, Racial Discrimination Against Non-Minorities?

[Truth7t7]

No, absolutely not. Perhaps an example will make that clear. Let's say they had a point system and they gave bonus points for some things. Lets also say she was 10 points ahead before any bonus points but that there are another student who was:

Black = 4 bonus points
Veteran =6 bonus points
Spoke mandarin = 3 bonus points.

Now this other student is ahead by 3 points. That student would still have been behind if they lacked any of those attributes.

It is linguistically absurd to say that student was selected based solely on race, solely on Veteran status and solely on speaking Mandarin.

It is as wrong as saying another student with a similar GPA was chosen solely because of an 'A' in one particular class.

We need to remove the bonus points based upon racial minority status reverse discrimination.

Equal uniform testing for admissions, across the board in a level playing field.

 

[keith99]

We need to remove the bonus points based upon racial minority status reverse discrimination.

Equal uniform testing for admissions, across the board in a level playing field.

Perhaps level, but a poor one for finding the best students.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

No, absolutely not. Perhaps an example will make that clear. Let's say they had a point system and they gave bonus points for some things. Lets also say she was 10 points ahead before any bonus points but that there are another student who was:

Black = 4 bonus points
Veteran =6 bonus points
Spoke mandarin = 3 bonus points.

Now this other student is ahead by 3 points. That student would still have been behind if they lacked any of those attributes.

It is linguistically absurd to say that student was selected based solely on race, solely on Veteran status and solely on speaking Mandarin.

It is as wrong as saying another student with a similar GPA was chosen solely because of an 'A' in one particular class.

True, but she's only contesting the use of race, not the points system as a whole. When she says "I would have gotten in if race had not been considered," she is claiming that race was the deciding factor. She's wrong, as you've pointed out, but it is her claim.

And that still ignores the possibility that the five minority students had more points than her even without considering race, because we don't know the relative rankings involved.

 

[Go Braves]

It is a brilliant racist holding action. it insure sufficient admissions of minorities to keep the federal government off their backs while also making sure enough of those who are admitted flunk out to provide superficial evidence that minorities can not hack it.

Minorities from sub par high schools will get in, but they will lack the tools and soon be gone. Those minorities who do start early enough will make their way into better schools, but quite a few of them fall outside the top 10% of their class, especially if they have been working their way up and started at sub par schools. Truly brilliant. Oh the very best and brightest won't be held down, but those just a bit less smart will be while those content to wallow in ghetto schools will get admitted to the pride of the Texas University system!

Well, they have decent retention and graduation rates, so the majority who are admitted stay there & succeed well enough to get their diploma.

Not surprisingly there are a half dozen schools in the University of California system that are ranked ahead ot University of Texas at Austin. Looks like a more balanced admissions system helps keep a school highly ranked.

How does UC have a more balanced admissions system? There's been controversy on account of them giving preferential treatment to rich international kids, shafting folks from in-state. As for rankings in comparison to UT that depends on which UC campus you're using for the comparison & the program.
I'm in aerospace engineering & UT has a higher ranked program than the UCs. There's a bunch of folks who get an 800 on the SAT & the Subject Tests and still get rejected from UT & other top engineering programs, even with good GPAs to boot. Class rank is important.

 

[KCfromNC]

The test that does not include "Race" as a deciding factor

Which test is that?

 

[KCfromNC]

Equal uniform testing for admissions, across the board in a level playing field.

... would have still had the student in question rejected from the school she's suing over. So what's the point of this thread?

 

[NotreDame]

If she claims that she would have been admitted over the minority students had race not been factored in, then she is claiming that they were chosen over her based solely on race.

The fact is that we don't know where she ranked or where those 5 minority students ranked. It could be that they had enough points to beat her even without factoring in race - after all, 42 white students in similar academic situations could say the same. And it could be that there were 5 (or more) other students who were ranked between her and the 47 students with worse academic records who were accepted, so even if those five minority students would not have made it in without race playing a role, she still would not have been accepted.

If she claims that she would have been admitted over the minority students had race not been factored in, then she is claiming that they were chosen over her based solely on race.

No. Read more carefully what you just said. Read it, again. Specifically, "If she claims that she would have been admitted over the minority students had race not been factored in..."

The italicized statement above is the not equivalent statement of, "[S]he is claiming that they were chosen over her based solely on race."

The fact is that we don't know where she ranked or where those 5 minority students ranked. It could be that they had enough points to beat her even without factoring in race - after all, 42 white students in similar academic situations could say the same. And it could be that there were 5 (or more) other students who were ranked between her and the 47 students with worse academic records who were accepted, so even if those five minority students would not have made it in without race playing a role, she still would not have been accepted

This is irrelevant to the decision and the lawsuit. Why? Because UT admitted race was a factor for a pool of applicants admitted over Fisher and in which Fisher was competing against.

Your speculative factual account above is unpersuasive.

 

[NotreDame]

Nope, you're failing to properly read my posts if that's what you think, on account of how I addressed that point several times.

The discovery lead to revealing that it was her mediocrity that kept her from being admitted.

Nope, you're failing to properly read my posts if that's what you think, on account of how I addressed that point several times.

No, the real problem is you are commenting upon the facts of a case which you are much uninformed about and are confused about what you are in fact saying.

You said:

"Like I wrote in my post, with TX House Bill 588 81% of the class she was applying to be in were admitted based on being in the top 10% of their class, regardless of their race. She failed to earn admission that way, having an inferior academic record to those who were. She also only got an 1180 on her SAT, putting her below the average for those who were admitted in that class."
​

Edifying information but irrelevant to Ms. Fisher's lawsuit. She was not alleging any injury under the scheme you referenced above. Got it?

The discovery lead to revealing that it was her mediocrity that kept her from being admitted

Incorrect.

 

[NotreDame]

No, absolutely not. Perhaps an example will make that clear. Let's say they had a point system and they gave bonus points for some things. Lets also say she was 10 points ahead before any bonus points but that there are another student who was:

Black = 4 bonus points
Veteran =6 bonus points
Spoke mandarin = 3 bonus points.

Now this other student is ahead by 3 points. That student would still have been behind if they lacked any of those attributes.

It is linguistically absurd to say that student was selected based solely on race, solely on Veteran status and solely on speaking Mandarin.

It is as wrong as saying another student with a similar GPA was chosen solely because of an 'A' in one particular class.

Correct. The "solely" argument, fabricated by Rocks In My Head, is not what Ms. Fisher alleged, and has no basis in the facts of the case itself.

 

[NotreDame]

It Seems Mediocre Grades, Not Ethnicity, Kept Abigail Fisher Out of UT Austin

LOL...you could not have cited to a better article, which undermines the notion Fisher's mediocre grades kept her from being admitted to UT, had you actually tried.

The article states very clearly several students with lower test scores and grades than Ms. Fisher were admitted! Did you miss this rather inconvenient part of the article?

"And yet: the school did offer "provisional" admission to students with lower test scores and grades than Fisher."​

It is unadulterated irrationality to assert Fisher's "mediocre grades" was the cause of being denied admission when students with lower grades and lower test scores received "provisional admission."

How exactly does that line of reasoning work? It doesn't, at least not rationally.

 

[Truth7t7]

No. Read more carefully what you just said. Read it, again. Specifically, "If she claims that she would have been admitted over the minority students had race not been factored in..."

The italicized statement above is the not equivalent statement of, "[S]he is claiming that they were chosen over her based solely on race."



This is irrelevant to the decision and the lawsuit. Why? Because UT admitted race was a factor for a pool of applicants admitted over Fisher and in which Fisher was competing against.

Your speculative factual account above is unpersuasive.

I agree 100%, as they did state "Race" was a deciding factor, and five "Minority" students with lower "Test Scores" & "Grades" were accepted.

If one "Minority" was accepted that scored lower, she has a case, she has five based upon "Race".

Good response, I see it as you do.

 

[Truth7t7]

LOL...you could not have cited to a better article, which undermines the notion Fisher's mediocre grades kept her from being admitted to UT, had you actually tried.

The article states very clearly several students with lower test scores and grades than Ms. Fisher were admitted! Did you miss this rather inconvenient part of the article?

"And yet: the school did offer "provisional" admission to students with lower test scores and grades than Fisher."​

It is unadulterated irrationality to assert Fisher's "mediocre grades" was the cause of being denied admission when students with lower grades and lower test scores received "provisional admission."

How exactly does that line of reasoning work? It doesn't, at least not rationally.

I agree 100%, and read the article exactly as you did, "Five Minority Students" were lower in GPA and Test scores and were admitted with one of the qualifying provisions being "Race"

Done Deal, 100% Discrimination to Abigail Fisher, and the other "Non Minorities" that also were higher in qualifications GPA & test scores.

 

[Go Braves]

LOL...you could not have cited to a better article, which undermines the notion Fisher's mediocre grades kept her from being admitted to UT, had you actually tried.

The article states very clearly several students with lower test scores and grades than Ms. Fisher were admitted! Did you miss this rather inconvenient part of the article?

"And yet: the school did offer "provisional" admission to students with lower test scores and grades than Fisher."​

It is unadulterated irrationality to assert Fisher's "mediocre grades" was the cause of being denied admission when students with lower grades and lower test scores received "provisional admission."

How exactly does that line of reasoning work? It doesn't, at least not rationally.

Well, I'm mirroring your reaction of lulz at unadulterated irrationality right now while responding to your post. You sure have missed some key points in the article.

 

[Go Braves]

No, the real problem is you are commenting upon the facts of a case which you are much uninformed about and are confused about what you are in fact saying.

Nope. If that's what you honestly think, then the real problem is with your reading comprehension of my posts.

You said:

"Like I wrote in my post, with TX House Bill 588 81% of the class she was applying to be in were admitted based on being in the top 10% of their class, regardless of their race. She failed to earn admission that way, having an inferior academic record to those who were. She also only got an 1180 on her SAT, putting her below the average for those who were admitted in that class."
​

Edifying information but irrelevant to Ms. Fisher's lawsuit. She was not alleging any injury under the scheme you referenced above. Got it?

Lulz. I addressed how she was competing for the leftover spots numerous times. The admissions process as a whole for the University of Texas is absolutely relevant to the case.

Incorrect.

Nope, it was correct.

 

[Go Braves]

I agree 100%, and read the article exactly as you did, "Five Minority Students" were lower in GPA and Test scores and were admitted with one of the qualifying provisions being "Race"

Done Deal, 100% Discrimination to Abigail Fisher, and the other "Non Minorities" that also were higher in qualifications GPA & test scores.

It's a LOL but not a surprise that you read it that way & came to the wrong conclusion that you did. There were 168 black and Latino students with grades as good as or better than Fisher's who were also denied entry into the university that year. They could have had themselves a big sulk over it, sued, but they had more dignity than her. There were 5 minority students but 42 white students who were offered provisional admission. Points were given based on the essays they wrote, leadership activities.

She was treated fairly. Despite her having mediocre grades, mediocre test scores, she was offered conditional admission. All she had to do was get good grades at another Texas school for 1 year, then she could have gone to Austin as a sophomore, graduated from there. Instead she had a tantrum on account of not getting her way.

 

[NotreDame]

Well, I'm mirroring your reaction of lulz at unadulterated irrationality right now while responding to your post. You sure have missed some key points in the article.

Right. Including the part of the article which weakens your claim Ms. Fisher was not admitted because her “mediocre” grades and test score. Specifically, other applicants with both lower grades and test scores were given provisional admission.

The rest of the article doesn’t ameliorate the damage done to your claim Ms. Fisher was denied admission because mediocre grades and mediocre test score.

 

[NotreDame]

Nope. If that's what you honestly think, then the real problem is with your reading comprehension of my posts..

No. The problem is I referenced Y, you brought up X, and actually think you’ve said something about Y.

Just as you’ve confused yourself into thinking the article you cited supports the notion Ms. Fisher was denied admission because of both mediocre grades and test score. The article hurt your argument.

But it’s cool if you want to blame me for your blunders.

 

[Go Braves]

Right. Including the part of far article which weakens your claim Ms. Fisher was not admitted because her “mediocre” grades and test score. Specifically, other applicants with both lower grades and test scores were given provisional admission.

The rest of the article doesn’t ameliorate the damage done to your claim Ms. Fisher was denied admission because mediocre grades and mediocre test score.

Far article? 42 of those applicants who were also given provisional admission were white. Only 5 were minorities. 168 black & Latino applicants who earned grades that were as good or better than Abigail Fisher's were also denied admission that year.

The article does in fact substantiate the fact that she was denied admission on account of mediocrity.

 

[Go Braves]

No. The problem is I referenced Y, you brought up X, and actually think you’ve said something about Y.

Just as you’ve confused yourself into thinking the article you cited supports the notion Ms. Fisher was denied admission because of both mediocre grades and test score. The article hurt your argument.

But it’s cool if you want to blame me for your blunders.

Hey, it's also cool with me if you want to continue to blame me for your blunders, including the ones you made right here. Thanks for the lulz.

 

[NotreDame]

Far article? 42 of those applicants who were also given provisional admission were white. Only 5 were minorities. 168 black & Latino applicants who earned grades that were as good or better than Abigail Fisher's were also denied admission that year.

The article does in fact substantiate the fact that she was denied admission on account of mediocrity.

No. No. How many times can you repeat this non-sense?

They admitted students with both inferior test scores and grades. If grades and test scores kept her out, then logically grades and test scores should have kept out students with grades and test scores below hers.

You made a cause and effect argument. X, where X is mediocre test score and mediocre grades, were the cause for not being admitted.

Ok, well logically if X is the cause, then it stands to reason applicants with inferior test scores and inferior grades to Ms. Fisher are also denied admission. After all, they have a identical characteristic to Ms. Fisher, which are test scores and grades not worthy of admission since they doomed Ms. Fisher.

Hence, the fact they accepted students with the same mediocrity as Ms. Fisher or mediocrity, means Ms. Fisher wasn’t denied admission on the basis of her mediocre grades and test scores.

The article contradicts the notion mediocrity doomed her since mediocrity didn’t doom other students.

Furthermore, the article isn’t really about her mediocre grades and test scores denying her admission but instead the article, taken as a WHOLE, seeks to refute any notion race was the determinative factor.