Adventist Hermeneutics

[BobRyan]

Can you give me chapter and verse on that one?
That it is NEVER by group?

Romans 10 shows us exactly how it works -
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Instead of "Whoever claims to be a Jew"


so also Acts 10
34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36 The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— 37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea,

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

The Jew Is Condemned by the Law
17 But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.



Romans 11

I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Dave-W]

Romans 10 shows us exactly how it works -

I get all of that. But that no where ever says that God will not move on an entire people group to bring them to repentance.

Since there are passages in both testaments that says HE will at some point bring the Jewish people to that point, you have to find scripture that directly contradicts that. (not just describing the usual way it goes)

HINT: it is NOT in there.

 

[BobRyan]

I get all of that. But that no where ever says that God will not move on an entire people group to bring them to repentance.

He said he is already doing that.

"The Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" -- so then all the world "people-group" by God is "is not partial" as those texts point out.

IF all Australians and all people living in the middle east and in Israel and in central America suddenly turn into born again Christians - I am certain they are all saved at that point. But the Bible shows that time after time it does not happen like that.

 

[masmpg]

Can you give me chapter and verse on that one?
That it is NEVER by group?

I don't mean to but in here Dave but here is a great verse and principle that will address your question, found in Romans:10:12&13: "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." There never has been neither will there be corporate repentance leading to corporate salvation. Have you ever heard of whole nations accepting Jesus? We will all stand before the judgement seat alone, not as a nation, group, nor even tongue. 2Corinthians:5:10: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

 

[Dave-W]

Have you ever heard of whole nations accepting Jesus?

Cities, but not nations. Not yet.

However, there is a future promise of that very thing in scripture. There are many things prophesied in the end times that none of us have ever seen before. But God WILL do them.

I don't mean to but in here Dave but here is a great verse and principle that will address your question, found in Romans:10:12&13: "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Great verse; but it is talking about our equality before the foot of the cross and the throne of mercy. It does not address nor is it applicable to the unique calling of the Jewish people, which according to Rom 11.29 is "without repentance," or "irrevocable."

When God makes a promise like "all Israel will be saved" Rom 11.26 - and he is referring to the "enemies of the gospel," v28; why do we want to spiritualize it away, or deny it? That sounds like unbelief to me.

Is it not better to take God at His word and marvel at the huge miracle that will be?

 

[masmpg]

Cities, but not nations. Not yet.

However, there is a future promise of that very thing in scripture. There are many things prophesied in the end times that none of us have ever seen before. But God WILL do them.

Great verse; but it is talking about our equality before the foot of the cross and the throne of mercy. It does not address nor is it applicable to the unique calling of the Jewish people, which according to Rom 11.29 is "without repentance," or "irrevocable."

When God makes a promise like "all Israel will be saved" Rom 11.26 - and he is referring to the "enemies of the gospel," v28; why do we want to spiritualize it away, or deny it? That sounds like unbelief to me.

Is it not better to take God at His word and marvel at the huge miracle that will be?

C'mon Dave, Galatians:3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." All I can say is
1Corinthians:2:14: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." To think that Paul is referring to the Zionists in Israel today when He wrote that "all Israel will be saved" puts up big question marks.

I do not spiritualize things away. I just look at the facts surrounding the jews who
#1 broke the everlasting covenant. Isaiah 24:5
#2 cursed themselves in Matthew 27:25
#3 Stoned Stephen, which represented their last chance at accepting the gospel according to Daniel 9.
#4 witnessing their treachery today makes Christians wonder why so many believe they will be "saved" corporately.

I know that Nineveh was saved. You are right that whole cities repented and turned to God. The Israelites had so many chances. The Jews in Jesus day had the substance of all their sacrificial services in their midst and they murdered Him. Why would anybody believe that they would turn away from their stubbornness that has been ongoing for many generations of "His blood be on us and on our children"?

If you want to believe they will repent so be it, but don't be waiting on a certain thing to happen in those lines before some prophetic event takes place. Prophecies are very important in these last days, but the bible rule of Isaiah 8:20 holds true for all biblical interpretation. The bible holds the keys to prophetic interpretation too. Popular opinionated prophetic interpretation is dangerous and demands much prayer before it should be accepted.

 

[overcomer]

That was not how the "earlier church" (200 ad - 400 ad) saw it. James, the epistles of Peter and John, Hebrews, and Jude were not addressed to the gentile church, but to the Jewish believers. Indeed, texts found from the Sect of the Nazoreans place those letters between Acts and Romans.

Since when are the Jews called the 12 tribes??? The northen tribes had already been lost to the Assyrians. Obviously James was alluding to the spiritual Israel.

I know the Jews and the wannabe's will never accept what the 70 week prophecy teaches: the probation for the Jewish nation was closed in 34AD. God has not had anything to do with them for 2000 years.

 

[Dave-W]

Since when are the Jews called the 12 tribes???

In Jewish rabbinic literature from the first and 2nd centuries.

There was a modicum of representatives from the 10 northern tribes that filtered back into The Land and joined in with their Judah brothers.

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

Isaiah 4:3-4-
And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
THIS- is how it will be everywhere. Of course all those left ALIVE made the cut. These will be in spiritual bodies. Those who didn't lay dead until the second resurrection, which won't last very long. IF this time period happens to be after the second resurrection, which it may be, it's talking about the New Jerusalem. The more I study on it, since judgement AND fire have been deployed, it most likely is after the 1000 years and it's New Jerusalem. From what I posted yesterday, all left, who are seed of Abraham, by root or adoption, are called Isreal, my son/daughter, His children, who "overcame".

 

[overcomer]

In Jewish rabbinic literature from the first and 2nd centuries.

There was a modicum of representatives from the 10 northern tribes that filtered back into The Land and joined in with their Judah brothers.

No scriptural proof. If any record exists, it came from the rabbinical group that rejected Jesus. More importantly, it contradicted Jesus' proclamation that they should be dispersed.

This is telling that you'd rather trust the demonic Talmudic rabbinical teaching than the teaching of Jesus.

 

[overcomer]

The Samaritans were part of the lost 10 tribes. The Jews rejected them back then just as they reject the Messianics nowadays. Somethings haven't changed.

 

[BobRyan]

Phil 3 - and Romans 2 - Paul condemns the "false circumcision" those who are merely physical Jews and not spiritual ones - where as he says the gentile believers are in fact true Jews.

How else do you get "false circumcision" ??

 

[Dave-W]

The Samaritans were part of the lost 10 tribes.

Not really. They were the remainders from Judah and Benjamin that were not carried off to Babylon. (they left a few to till the land) They had no priests or rabbis and ended up marrying women from the surrounding territories and worshiping foreign gods. Some repented and put away their pagan wives but most did not. That was the origin of the Samaritans.

 

[BobRyan]

Phil 3 - and Romans 2 - Paul condemns the "false circumcision" those who are merely physical Jews and not spiritual ones - where as he says the gentile believers are in fact true Jews.

Phil 3
2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

How else do you get "false circumcision" ??

What is more -- in Rev 2 we have this

Rev 2
9 ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

One thing is for sure - the Christians were not tasked with going around to non-Christian Jews and setting up rules for them to obey and to determine if they are real Jews or not to determine if they have literal fleshly false circumcision.

So in these two texts both the terms "Jews" and "circumcision" must be spiritual.

Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


In this text Paul says that the physical distinction is nothing - the real issue is obedience to the Word of God

1 Cor 7
17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in all the churches. 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God

 

[Sabbathkeeper&Wife]

How else do you get "false circumcision" ??

From a razor AND a false sense of security that come from vain and false beliefs.
Remember when it was the norm to collect foreskins like scalps? That's the value God puts into physical circumcision over spiritual. Just like when God said He'd rather have our love than our burnt offerings. Still more dead, rotting flesh. Circumcision of the heart is all that matters to God. All the old practices were an ensamble, a shadow of how it's actually done and accepted in heaven. God was kinda hoping we would see that, yet we do not.