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Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue
- Thread starter tall73
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I may need to check it out, I have recently checked out the world wide church of God and some messianic jewish faiths. The problems with the WWCOG is they read some things into scripture that isn't even there but not excessively so. Some of the messianics still hold onto some of the old ceremonial laws. I am convinced that observing the Sabbath is what God wants us to do from studying the Bible so any church that I would go to would need to observe the Sabbath. That kind of limits my choices.
Does this church observe the Sabbath? God Bless
Jim Larmore
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Then you are free to comit sin with impunity is that it? This is nothing more than onced saved always saved.
How about defining what you think sin is from the Bible.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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Please don't take offense by this but my evaluation of your stance on what is truth or not is not based on emotions or feeling but on clear thinking. I don't want you to think that I have a strong feeling against you personally because I don't. I am committed to love all of my brothers and sisters. I think some of us have allowed ourselves to be deceived. What I have found in your case is that you twist the Bible to make it fit a false teaching such as the immortality of the soul. You read the context around texts like Ecc 9:5 and Ezek 18:4 and say it invalidates what it clearly says but your logic to support this is pitted with error. Then you place significance in texts that aren't really saying what you say they are concerning this. This is typical tactics of those who don't really want to accept the truth or who is rationalizing away the what the Bible is saying so they can feel ok with what they are embrasing now. Either way the enemy of our souls wins.
I do wish you the best Eila and in the end it is God who will be the final judge of what is right or wrong, not me.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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I may need to check it out, I have recently checked out the world wide church of God and some messianic jewish faiths. The problems with the WWCOG is they read some things into scripture that isn't even there but not excessively so. Some of the messianics still hold onto some of the old ceremonial laws. I am convinced that observing the Sabbath is what God wants us to do from studying the Bible so any church that I would go to would need to observe the Sabbath. That kind of limits my choices.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
It would be the same church Jesus spoke to Peter about in Matthew 16 when He asked him: "Who do you say that I am? Peter said: "You are Christ the son of the living God". Jesus then said: "Blessed are you Simon Barjoni because flesh and blood did not reveal it but my Father in Heaven and upon this rock will I build my church.
Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid is of Jesus Christ.
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Eila
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I know we disagree on the immortality of a soul/spirit. Yet I wonder why you say I twist scripture? I presented you with plenty of scripture to show what I was talking about. When you read scripture with the presupposition that death = ceasing to exist then your understanding will be different from mine. But then that is just what it should be. We read the same scripture and our understanding is different. Should I say you are twisting scripture because your understanding of it is different from mine? Ecc 9 is clearly talking about things that happen under the sun. Ez 18 you are reading into that text with your presupposition that die = cease to exisit. Even the body does not cease to exist at death.
You are assuming I am just trying to fit in and ignore truth. I believed as you do 100%, yet I learned differently from the Bible.
No Jim, you did not offend me. I have heard on many occasions that I am of the devil and not saved (rather I won't be saved). You had accused me previously of following tradition. If I was following after tradition I would believe like you.
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Eila
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No, that is not once saved always saved. That does tell me that you believe you can lose your salvation if you sin though. Can a person believe in once saved always saved if they believe man has a free will?
All things are permissable for me, but not all things are beneficial for me.
1 Cor 6 "12Everything is permissible (allowable and lawful) for me; but not all things are helpful (good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power."
1 Cor 10 "23All things are legitimate [permissible--and we are free to do anything we please], but not all things are helpful (expedient, profitable, and wholesome). All things are legitimate, but not all things are constructive [to character] and edifying [to spiritual life]."
We suffer the results of sin in this life and will be rewarded based on our works. However, these works are not what determine whether or not a person is saved.
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You are right Eila. We are saved by the Blood Sacrifice of Jesus God's Only Begotten Son.
Blood was the means of sacrifice in the OT but now there is a more Perfect Sacrifice Once for All:
Heb. 10: 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And if we cannot believe that we are saved Once and For All by the Blood of Jesus Christ then what are we going to do with this verse:
Heb. 6: 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Worthy is The Lamb who takes away the sin of the World
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I knew very little or nothing of the Bible when I was initially baptized many years ago. I started to study the scriptures when the Holy Spirit called me to them. I wanted to believe as you do and had a pre-supposition as you say to believe that the soul was immortal from my other churches. I am also a mason and they teach the soul is immortal so I had it coming from many directions.
The only problem is as I started to dig deeper and deeper into the Bible I started to realize my beliefs were wrong. At first when I came across a verse like Ezek18:4 I would brush it off as a fluke or exception, but then I found more ane more verses that said the same thing basically until I was convicted to change the way I believed on this. This was long before becoming an adventist again.
Absolutely if I am doing that, by all means please do. Please show logically how I am changing the scripture to fit my belief. I showed you clearly how you were taking the context and trying to say it changed the declarative nature of the verses I was quoting from. I made a statement that I could do that with literally any verse in the Bible and offered to show you examples but you never responded to that. Let's stay logical and scriptural though , ok?
Here's where your rationalizing is rampant. There is nothing in the context around Ez 18:4 that invalidates the truth that souls who sin will die. This completely refutes the immortality of the soul yet you continue to go down a road pocked with error. Ecc 9:5's context is indeed about what happens under the sun. That's where we live out our lives and die. There's absolutely nothing in that fact that changes the fact that the dead know not anything. If in the context we had found a statement that the spirit survived and knew things then it would be different. You have to assume things to invalidate these texts.
I'm glad you are not offended here. Traditional teachings to me are those that have no strong foundation in scriptures. Clearly , the teaching of the immortality of the soul is one of these teachings. You have to really stretch the teachings a lot to make the Bible say the soul is immortal.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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Eila
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I don't doubt that a soul can be dead. Death however, doesn't equal ceasing to exist.
I don't invalidate those texts. I view them differently than you.
As of yet, I have not found an Adventist that will say "I see how you see that, but I disagree." Instead, I often hear that I am in error and deceived or twisting scripture.
So when you were born again, what was born again?
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Eila
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As a former Adventist I cannot express how tremendous the freedom is in knowing without a doubt that you are saved. The assurance is real and profound.
Ephesians 2 "4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
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Apparently so, because what you are saying here is that you can sin after you are saved but it's not imputed to you. IOW, I can comit adultery, lie or steal all I want after being saved and it won't be imputed against me in heaven. This is just not Biblical. This is exactly what the once saved always saved folks say. Sinning will indeed cost us our salvation if we practice it on a regular basis without confessing and repenting of it.
If you read 1 Cor 6 you see where Paul is saying that fornicators, idolators or homosexuals will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Then you turn right around and say in verse 12 that the Bible says that anything you do is ok and lawful just not helpful. Don't you see the inconsistancies in that statement Eila? You say you are big on context , please read the context and see what it says that actually invalidates your idea of what this verse is actually saying.
Here you go again. Look at the verses before and after. Paul is talking about eating meats sacrificed to idols here. In verse 21 it says " You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils, ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table and of the table of devils" Then you go on to say that in verse 23 it says essentially we can do just that by saying all things are lawful and ok to do.
Can't you see the the inconsistancies? This is exactly what I was talking about in my other post.
I agree but the plan of salvation is not one sided. It requires we become intimately involved in not only the justification part but of the sanctification part as well. Our works will never save us but without some works where we exercise our free will to choose God and salvation then we are indeed lost.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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Eila
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How do you know what "regular basis" is? So if you die before you confessed every thing are you lost or can you cover your bases by saying forgive me for everything? What if you forgot to ask forgiveness for something or didn't know something was wrong? Is sin subjective?
No, I am not twisting the scripture here either. Here is the context:
1 Corinthians 6 "7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Glorify God in Body and Spirit
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”[b] 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are God’s."
Here Paul is talking about the unrighteous - sinners. Those who are righteous were washed, were santified, and were justified.
1 Corinthians 10
"4 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?
All to the Glory of God
23 All things are lawful for me,[c] but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me,[d] but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.
25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for “the earth is the LORD’s, and all its fullness.”[e]
27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake;[f] for “the earth is the LORD’s, and all its fullness.”[g] 29 “Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? 30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks?
31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."
I think this passage makes it clear that it is not wrong to eat food that was offered to idols unless it is made known to you that it was offered to idols. It is not for our own sake, but for the sake of those we eat with. It gives the lost the wrong impression if we accept their idol worship.
So the work of Christ is not complete? He needs you to complete it? What happens if you die and are not perfect?
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I agree that until the creator takes care of things at the end of time that death is a sleep just as Christ says it is in John 11:11. However, when the Bible speaks of a soul dying it is speaking of eternal death. I will probably get in trouble for saying that because we are not allowed to discuss anilhilism of the souul on the GT board. The Bible makes it very clear that this will happen however. In particular it speaks of satan and Ezek 28:18 where it says " Therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee , it shall devour thee and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of them that beheld thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee, thou shalt be a terror and never shalt thou be anymore " This all equals soul destroyed and completely gone. How can you make the context change this one?
Pardon me dear sister but when you say you view them differently than I do what you are saying is that they don't say what they clearly say. You do this by either saying the context says or slants the meaning of the verse to mean something differently than I do. Or you say it only applies to what happens under the sun. However, the Bible does not say this in many other verses especially the ones that say the soul sleeps.
Not only twisting but ignoring clear statements like Ezek 18:4 that clearly says a soul is not immortal.
My soul is what got saved. A soul, according to the Bible is a body plus the breath of life. I gave several texts that says a soul can bleed or get thirsty or experience any of the things a body can because they are one. What you are confusing is the texts in the Bible that specifically speaks of the spirit of a man. This is clearly part of the intelligencia or mind of a man not a separate enitity that he has which survives death. When you hear of a person spirit being broken you are referring to that person's psychi or mental attitude towards his surroundings. This is not a separate entity or phase of the mind that can exist outside of the brain.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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- Sep 23, 2005
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I do not think you are deceived. Nor do I think you are being dishonest or led by Satan.
Although the error part...someone is always in error if there are two different points of view on a specific question that is asked about an objective reality. Sometimes it may be both.
When Christians disagree on interpretation it is not an insignificant thing. But we can acknowledge sincerity if not agreement.
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As a former Adventist I cannot express how tremendous the freedom is in knowing without a doubt that you are saved. The assurance is real and profound.
Ephesians 2 "4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1Jo 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
There are Adventists who have assurance.
This is always an interesting aspect when I look at former Adventist forums, etc. or talk to many who have left the church. Many of them did not find any hint of righteousness by faith in the church. I say this to our shame. Don't get me wrong, I admit that there is a legalistic tendency in the church in some parts. And those leaving often equate leaving the church to leaving legalism. But there are many non-legalists in the church. And there are also some who are confused for legalists who are definitely not. They live by faith, but they long for holiness. That is not at all out of line either. They recognize that it is Christ that makes them holy.
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One of my favorite verses by the way. But let us back up for a moment.
Do you not both believe that the Spirit living in us willl change us from the deeds of the flesh to life?
Those who bear the fruit of the Spirit are doing the opposite of the works of the flesh.
The question ssems to be not whether we agree we are to be washed and sanctified.
The question seems more to be on whether salvation is tied to this.
Now in the context of the church at Corinth, they had people there who had been washed. But they also had the danger of leven working through the whole lump from the terrible sin in their midst. There was a danger of them falling away back to their old behavior, to works of the flesh.
The danger of sin is not that one sin will destroy our eternal life. The problem is that you cannot live a consistent life of sin and still walk in the Spirit. If we are doing continually the things of the flesh then it reflects on our relationship with Christ. There were some in Corinth in danger of turning back to their previous life of sin.
Most understand "All things are lawful for me" to be a quotation from the Corinthian's themselves. Or perhaps more properly, from the "super apostles", the false teachers who were leading them astray and hardening them towards Paul. The same is true with "food for the stomach, stomach for the food." They were making arguments that just as the stomach was made to consume food so the sexual organs were made for sex. Paul says, sure, but God will destroy those who just indulge their natural desires and turn away from Christ's requirements.
Therefore his next statement is not about food but about sexual immorality which is the real issue:
But the people he is speaking of were in the church. Otherwise they could not join the members of CHRIST to a prostitute. They were Christians who were also joining themselves in what was most likely temple prostitution.
There were likely two issues here. There were those who were joining in actual idolatrous worship, and then those who were simply buying meat in the market. Paul compares those who participate in pagan worship to the ones who left on the exodus journey, but were destroyed before they arrived. They started out, but they did not finish.
They were provoking the Lord to Jealousy.
Then he addresses those who were so consciencious that they were avoiding all meat or any meat sold in the market, because it was often meat that had been dedicated to idols.
He says that there is no danger in that. Just eat what is put before you or that you buy. But they should certainly not engage in pagan worship. That would be testing the Lord and joining in the worship of demons.
The question is whether one is walking in the Spirit or after the flesh. If they are not with Christ then they have no life. Those who turn themselves over to a wholesale life of sin, serving their sinful nature, cannot really be walking in Christ. It is the relationship that matters. But they want sin more than the relationship.
Even Adventists note that it is not single sins but the direction of the life--towards Christ or not, that makes the difference. Those who walked with Christ in the Scriptures made mistakes. We see them recorded in the Scriptures. But they were walking with Christ, and when they fell they got up again and walked with Him again. But to forsake Christ for a life of following the sinful nature is a life that ends in destruction.
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Eila
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Believe it or not Tall73, I did have assurance of my salvation as an Adventist. I know that is a rare thing, but totally possible. I was more of an evangelical SDA (although for a few years I was entrenched in legalism). Fellow Adventists straightened me out about the legalism and I left that behind many years before I started questioning SDA doctrine. But, dare I say, it is different - at least it was for me. Although I did have assurance as an Adventist, it isn't quite the same as the assurance I have now. I knew I was saved, but thought that maybe if I did a bunch of bad things I would lose my salvation. That is quite different from the assurance I have now. The only thing I can do to lose my salvation is to deny Christ and walk away from Him forever and there is no way I am ever doing that. I may have walked away from the SDA church, but I am never walking away from Him.
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