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Adventist: amalgamation in CERTAIN races of men.

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by tall73, Apr 15, 2021.

  1. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Ellen White, Seventh-day Adventist prophet, wrote the following fascinating comments in the book Spiritual Gifts Volume 3.

    But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. {3SG 64.1}

    Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {3SG 75.2}


    For those interested in reading the entire book:

    Details — Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3 — Ellen G. White Writings

    So the question is, in which races of men did Ellen White see evidence of this amalgamation which defaced the image of God?

    Seventh-day Adventists hold that Ellen White's writings speak with "prophetic authority" in their official fundamental beliefs.

    What Adventists Believe about the Prophetic Gift | Adventist.org
    The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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  2. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    These comments regarding amalgamation were considered controversial during Ellen White's own day. Uriah Smith, a prominent Seventh-day Adventist at that time wrote a book defending a number of her statements. This is what he said:

    (Mods, please note, these are not my words. I quote them from an historical document to note the views of Uriah Smith. He views some races as still human, and still to be labored for in Christ, but indicates "amalgamation" was evident in these races.)

    The Visions of Mrs. E.G. White

    The Visions of Mrs. E.G. White by Uriah Smith

    But does any one deny the general statement contained in the extract given above? They do not. If they did, they could easily be silenced by a reference to such cases as the wild Bushmen of Africa, some tribes of Hottentots, and perhaps the Digger Indians of our own country, etc. Moreover, naturalists affirm that the line of demarcation between the human and animal races is lost in confusion. It is impossible, as they affirm, to tell just where the human ends and the animal begins. Can we suppose that this was ordained of God in the beginning? Rather has not sin marred the boundaries of these two kingdoms?


    And a bit later on:

    We are bound to labor, so far as in our power, for the improvement of their mental, moral, and physical condition. Whatever race of men we may take, Bushmen, Hottentots, Patagonians, or any class of people, however low they may apparently be in the scale of humanity, their mental capabilities are in every instance the basis on which we are to work, and by which we determine whether they are subjects of moral government or not.

    This book defending the visions of Ellen White was endorsed by James White, Ellen's husband:

    Review and Herald (Aug. 25, 1868):

    The Association has just published a pamphlet entitled, "The Visions of Mrs. E.G. White, A Manifestation of Spiritual Gifts According to the Scriptures." It is written by the editor of the Review. While carefully reading the manuscript I felt grateful to God that our people could have this able defense of those views they so much love and prize, and which others despise and oppose. This book is designed for a very wide circulation. There will be 2000 copies upon the camp ground. Price 20 cents. Postage 2 cents. James White


    https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18680825-V32-10.pdf

    You can scroll to the last page, on the left column to find this in the copy of the original from the Adventist archives.

    So to the Seventh-day Adventist posters here, do you think that Uriah Smith had it correct?
     
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  3. Freth

    Freth Seventh-day Adventist

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    Here's the complete quote surrounding amalgamation.

    But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. God purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful, long-lived race that had corrupted their ways before him. He would not suffer them to live out the days of their natural life, which would be hundreds of years. —Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, page 64​

    If you look at Ellen White's other uses of the same word, amalgamation, they were specifically in reference to the various means of corruption of by Satan.

    Those who profess to be followers of Christ, should be living agencies, co-operating with heavenly intelligences; but by union with the world, the character of God’s people becomes tarnished, and through amalgamation with the corrupt, the fine gold becomes dim. When worldly agencies are introduced into the church, it is evident that Satan is carrying out his devices, working through those who profess to be followers of Christ, making them ready at any time to engage with him in disheartening and discouraging those who are faithful, who would stand wholly on the Lord’s side. Review and Herald, August 23, 1892

    Genesis 3:18Amalgamation Brought Noxious Plants—Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord’s great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the Master, “Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? how then hath it tares?” The Master answered, “An enemy hath done this.” All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. —Bible Commentaries, vol. 1, page 1086.2
    I think what Ellen meant (the source material) is clear enough in her writings.
    As to why James adamantly supported the work of Uriah, the 1800's was a different time and people thought differently than we do now.

    Since none of them are here to clear this up, that's all I have for you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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  4. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    I appreciate you posting the tares quote that came up in my conversation with BobRyan in the other thread where we looked at the parable of the tares.

    However, you still need to clarify the answer to the question in the thread.

    If your view is that she is referring to

    union with the world, the character of God’s people becomes tarnished, and through amalgamation with the corrupt,

    Can you please explain which were the "certain races of men" that experienced this, and which were the other races of men that did not? And how is it seen?

    Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men.

    Also, how do you interpret the part about the animals?
     
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  5. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    They were there to clear it up then, though, correct? Do you think there is a reason Ellen White allowed Uriah Smith to say such things about the people he referenced being low on the scale of humanity?
     
  6. Freth

    Freth Seventh-day Adventist

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    Can you please explain which were the "certain races of men" that experienced this, and which were the other races of men that did not? And how is it seen? Also, how do you interpret the part about the animals?

    I think her quote is self-evident.

    "The character of God's people becomes tarnished, and through amalgamation with the corrupt [Satanic corruption]"​

    Intermingling between the sons of God [God's people] and the daughters of men [corrupted by Satan] (Genesis 6:2-4). If, as quoted in my last post, plants were corruptible by Satan, so were animals.

    God found good reason to destroy them in the flood, "...every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5-6) Men of renown, giants, etc.

    After the flood, Satan continued his work of corruption, but God had a people that He preserved through the flood and caused to multiply upon the earth.

    It's taken thousands of years, but we're almost like it was in the days of Noah. "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matthew 24:37)

    As to who the corrupt races of men are, I think all races are inherently corrupted to some degree at this late stage of the end time (as per the days of Noah). We don't have giants in this day and age, but the corruption is everywhere to be seen.

    They were there to clear it up then, though, correct? Do you think there is a reason Ellen White allowed Uriah Smith to say such things about the people he referenced being low on the scale of humanity?

    I haven't a clue. Only the three of them know and they're not alive to ask.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  7. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    That is only two groups. Sons of God, and daughters of men....

    And how are they "races"?

    Are you saying that the effects of sin did not touch the people of God? They don't bear any of the weight of the curse of sin?

    But that doesn't fit because there were multiple races who she indicated showed signs of amalgamation, and you have only two races total there.

    If all races of the earth are corrupt now, but you could see it in "certain" races of men in Ellen White's day, who were the races of men who were showing signs of amalgamation then, and why do you think those races were more likely to be worldly?

    How did some races manage not to be worldly?
     
  8. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Well, it is not completely evident to me. Can you explain how the animals part worked? Did wicked, worldly animals intermarry with other animals, resulting in many species of animals?

    almost endless varieties of species of animals
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    However - Not man with beast.
    It is "races of man" -- so then one species.
    Vs species of animals - so then many species.

    In Gen 6 mixing of humans - descendants of Cain vs descendants of Seth defaced the image of God which was being preserved in the case of the descendants of Seth who kept to the true faith.

    As we also will see "here" on page 6 of this thread

    of course current levels of abomination appear to go beyond that point

    Human-Monkey Chimeras Shed Light on Development

    Interesting how the atheist on CF views this topic at this CF thread below.
    Scientists create human-monkey chimera embryos that survived ~20 days

    That's 2021. But in 2017 we had the "human-pig chimera" project at SALK (China)



    By contrast to the case of "animal species" in the quotes above - we have the mixing of races of man where the people of God go into apostasy -- as Matthew Henry points out in Gen 6:1-2 - the races of men were mixing in Gen 6:1-2 - the people of God selecting the daughters of Cain and losing their religion to the enemies of God.

    ================================================
    Matt Henry Commentary – Gen 6:1-2

    Verses 1-2

    "For the glory of God’s justice, and for warning to a wicked world, before the history of the ruin of the old world, we have a full account of its degeneracy, its apostasy from God and rebellion against him. The destroying of it was an act, not of an absolute sovereignty, but of necessary justice, for the maintaining of the honour of God’s government. Now here we have an account of two things which occasioned the wickedness of the old world:-1. The increase of mankind: Men began to multiply upon the face of the earth. This was the effect of the blessing (ch. 1:28), and yet man’s corruption so abused and perverted this blessing that it was turned into a curse. Thus sin takes occasion by the mercies of God to be the more exceedingly sinful. Prov. 29:16, When the wicked are multiplied, transgression increaseth. The more sinners the more sin; and the multitude of offenders emboldens men. Infectious diseases are most destructive in populous cities; and sin is a spreading leprosy. Thus in the New-Testament church, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring (Acts 6:1), and we read of a nation that was multiplied, not to the increase of their joy, Isa. 9:3. Numerous families need to be well-governed, lest they become wicked families. 2. Mixed marriages (v. 2): The sons of God (that is, the professors of religion, who were called by the name of the Lord, and called upon that name), married the daughters of men, that is, those that were profane, and strangers to God and godliness. The posterity of Seth did not keep by themselves, as they ought to have done, both for the preservation of their own purity and in detestation of the apostasy. They intermingled themselves with the excommunicated race of Cain: They took them wives of all that they chose. But what was amiss in these marriages? (1.) They chose only by the eye: They saw that they were fair, which was all they looked at. (2.) They followed the choice which their own corrupt affections made: they took all that they chose, without advice and consideration. But, (3.) That which proved of such bad consequence to them was that they married strange wives, were unequally yoked with unbelievers, 2 Co. 6:14. This was forbidden to Israel, Deu. 7:3, 4. It was the unhappy occasion of Solomon’s apostasy (1 Ki. 11:1-4), and was of bad consequence to the Jews after their return out of Babylon, Ezra 9:1, 2. Note, Professors of religion, in marrying both themselves and their children, should make conscience of keeping within the bounds of profession. The bad will sooner debauch the good than the good reform the bad. Those that profess themselves the children of God must not marry without his consent, which they have not if they join in affinity with his enemies."
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Engaging with non-SDAs on "why I don't like something Ellen White wrote" topics - are not as high a priority for me personally as the doctrinal topics.

    For the sake of "Clarity" on this thread... A simple Example.

    Scenario A. IF a bunch of Bible scholars were sitting in a room making "a best guess" about how many sons and daughters Adam and Eve actually had (excluding all grandchildren etc) before they died - and 10 scholars came up with 10 guesses we might argue (anyone of them could be right or none of them ).

    But if God sent an Angel to tell one of the scholars "that number is 101" - then that scholar "should" change his guess to "101" - no matter what the other folks sitting around guessing -- may think of it.

    • Clearly that is not a doctrine.
    • IT is also not a detail (regarding the number children for Adam) - spelled out in the Bible -- although we do know that number has to be more than 5 since Cain and Seth both had wives

    ========================

    On this thread we have two proposed responses to scenario "A" above.

    1. Ignore what God just told you and stick with your original guess so you can be on a level playing field with the other guessers.

    2. Go with what God tells you is the right answer and be thankful for the added help.

    ========================

    Illustrating that point --

    I think you just shot your own argument in the foot

    you admit that your view of what the Bible says about real prophets who get a message from God is that ... it must be treated as being "from God and must be trusted" -- then you complain that SDAs do not take a non-SDA view of Ellen White as a prophet that was not getting messages from God?

    Is that even logical?

    It is circular reasoning to suggest that SDAs must take a non-SDA view of whether Ellen White got messages from God - and starting from there do all of their internal discussions.

    Which is a bit of a stretch to wrench her statement out of context to such an extreme. You realize that is the part that is hard to swallow since that is not what we do or ever did - right?

    It is not like an SDA would need to "take your word" for what they see happening every Sabbath - I think we both agree on this point. Rather we see it ourselves and that statement is not an accurate description of what I am seeing each week.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  11. Freth

    Freth Seventh-day Adventist

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    Are you saying that the effects of sin did not touch the people of God? They don't bear any of the weight of the curse of sin?


    We're talking Genesis 6 here. Seth lived 912 years. Cain lived 910 years. Noah lived 950 years. The sons of God were men who lived almost a thousand years.

    Just before the men of renown verse, "And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:2) In other words, the Spirit of the Lord was with these men, which is why they lived so long and why they were much less susceptible to corruption (not incorruptible). They were not far removed from Eden. It stands to reason that they were the Godly people scripture says they were, but indeed corruption set in and they began intermingling.

    But that doesn't fit because there were multiple races who she indicated showed signs of amalgamation, and you have only two races total there.

    I mentioned the giants. If it's not in the Bible, I can't tell you what other races or creatures there were.

    If all races of the earth are corrupt now, but you could see it in "certain" races of men in Ellen White's day, who were the races of men who were showing signs of amalgamation then...

    You're asking me to put words in Ellen's mouth by naming races she herself didn't name anywhere in her writings. I don't think you can say Uriah Smith quoted Ellen when he named names.

    ...and why do you think those races were more likely to be worldly?

    Satanic corruption, as was stated.

    How did some races manage not to be worldly?

    The Spirit of God, as was stated.
     
  12. Freth

    Freth Seventh-day Adventist

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    I explained in a previous post. Satan corrupted the very plants of creation, he could corrupt the animals of creation as well.
     
  13. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    So was the corruption due to sin generally or worldliness? Were not the wicked also not far removed from Eden?

    Were you proposing giants in Ellen White's day? Because she indicated it was seen in certain races.

    Also, can you explain what you mean by races? Why would worldliness be associated with race?

    No, I am just asking why you think certain races showed these effects, and asking if you know which ones. You make it sound like a mystery, but she said it was visible, could be seen. So what are the markers?

    So you see the Spirit of God as associated with races? Some have it, and some don't? Some races sin and are corrupt, and others are not?
     
  14. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    So he directly corrupted the animals, but it was not through worldly living?

    But with the people, the same "amalgamation" had a different process. And it was the people intermarrying with the wicked, not direct action by Satan?

    Why would they have different mechanisms?
     
  15. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    You mentioned you thought all races are corrupt now, or nearly so.

    But can we make a few inferences from your statements?

    If Ellen White was following God, and the Adventist church considers her to have the Spirit and be a prophet, does that mean that Ellen White's race was one of the incorrupt ones at her time? Because she said you could see it in only certain races of her time. Otherwise how could she escape corruption since you see it being transmitted through race?
     
  16. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    That is only two races. And they would be pre-flood. Post-flood she indicated that you could see it in "certain" races of men.

    Which races in Ellen Whites time were not worldly, not defacing the image of God, and were not intermarrying with other races?

    And since you hold that Ellen White was a prophet, was her race one of the ones that was not experiencing amalgamation?
     
  17. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    You must set your own priorities. However, wouldn't a base crime that more than any other contributed to the flood be an important topic?

    Do you know of any current races that are not being so defaced?

    And wouldn't knowing the markers that she saw be important to avoid intermarrying with them?
     
  18. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Are you thereby disagreeing with Uriah Smith's book which James White endorsed, that the line was blurred?
     
  19. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    If belief that Ellen White's writings were inspired is part of your fundamental beliefs, how are statements she made not doctrinal?
     
  20. Freth

    Freth Seventh-day Adventist

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    I'm not playing that game, I'm sorry. Feigned ignorance and leading the witness, not my cup of tea. I hope you find the answers you're looking for. God bless!
     
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